SECULAR EVIDENCE and NEO-BABYLONIAN CHRONOLOGY (Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, etc.)

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

3 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

For example, look how well that question is answered about the date of Jehoiachin's 37th year of exile.

625	624	623	622	621	620	619	618	617	616	615	614	613	612	611	610	609	608	607	606	605	604	603	602	601	600	599	598	597	596	595	594	593	592	591	590	589	588	587	586	585	584	583	582	581	580	579	578	577	576	575	574	573	572	571	570	569	568	567	566	565	564	563	562	561	560	559	558	557	556	555	554	553	552	551	550	549	548	547	546	545	544	543	542	541	540	539	538	537	536	535	534	533	532	531	530
N A B O P O L A S S A R (21 years)																					N E B U C H A D N E Z Z A R II (reigned for 43 years)																																											E-M		Nerig- lissar				N A B O N I D U S (17)																	C Y R U S
1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	21	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	21	22	23	24	25	26	27	28	29	30	31	32	33	591	35	36	37	38	39	40	41	42	43	1	2	1	2	3	4	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9

Just start in E-M1 which is 561 and go back 37 years on the timeline and you get 598. And this is exactly Nebuchadnezzar's 7th year. Now the Bible never says that Nebuchadnezzar reigned exactly 43 years, but notice how this perfectly matches the Babylonian standard timeline. The Bible gets another confirmation from the Babylonian timeline. Even the fact that it was the 7th year is confirmed not only in the Bible but in the Babylonian Chronicles, as you can see from the first quote from Insight in the previous post.

But the WT chronology now has only a 25-year period into which to somehow squeeze 45 years worth of kings' reigns between the first year of E-M and the last year of Nabonidus (17). But it gets worse. You'll recall that the Watchtower publications use the Nabonidus Chronicle to confirm that Cyrus conquered Babylon in the 17th year of Nabonidus. This means that Nabonidus also reigned only 17 years and ended that reign in 539. The INSIGHT book admits this evidence.

So we have all of the 43 years of Nebuchandnezzar, at least 1 year of Evil Merodach's 2 years, and all 17 of the years of Nabonidus. That's 63 of the 70 years the NB timeline from NEB1 to CYRUS1. This means that the WTS chronology must now fit 25 years of kings' reigns into the 5 years between 560 BCE and 556 BCE in the standard timeline. That's the only place left where the Watchtower's missing 20 years can be made to fit. 20 year of a broken cable of chronology.

Utter bunkum. Where does Jeremiah's 70 years fit in and where does Neb's missing 7 years and the twenty year gap in the NB timeline?

scholar JW

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, scholar JW said:

NB Chronology has little to confirm the Biblical record, it makes no mention of the 70 years for starters

The Insight book mentions two events at the beginning of the time when Babylon's domination of the region began. The subjugation of Assyria in 612 BCE (Standard timeline) and the battle of Carchemish in 605 BCE (Standard timeline). Just add the missing 20 years that the Watchtower can't find to get the Watchtower chronology:

*** it-1 p. 238 Babylon ***
In 632 B.C.E. Assyria was subdued by this new Chaldean dynasty, with the assistance of Median and Scythian allies. In 625 B.C.E., Nabopolassar’s eldest son, Nebuchadnezzar (II), defeated Pharaoh Necho of Egypt at the battle of Carchemish, and in the same year he assumed the helm of government.

The Babylonian Chronicles mark these battles at 73 years before 539 and 66 years before 539, respectively. Obviously the subjugation wasn't 100% complete 73 years before, but it was solidly proven by 66 years before. So a reasonable person would say that you could begin the count of domination somewhere between these two points. 70 is between 66 and 73. In fact, if you average the timeline between those two events you get the year 608.5 BCE. That represents 70.5 years of Babylonian domination using just those two primary events that INSIGHT speaks of as the events that handed the domination from the 2nd Empire (Assyria) to the 3rd Empire (Babylon). And, yes, the Babylonian Chronicles do record these events, that bring the "world empire" to Babylon.

3 hours ago, scholar JW said:

There was only ONE Exile but a number of deportations

What do you think a deportation is? If this twisting of scriptures is supposed to be required to accept the WT chronology, then I would rather choose the Bible's chronology which speaks of multiple exiles. Judah went into exile through multiple exiles

(Jeremiah 1:3) . . .It came also in the days of Je·hoiʹa·kim the son of Jo·siʹah, the king of Judah, until the completion of the 11th year of Zed·e·kiʹah the son of Jo·siʹah, the king of Judah, until Jerusalem went into exile in the fifth month.

(Jeremiah 52:15, 16) . . .Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard took into exile some of the lowly people and the rest of the people who were left in the city. He also took the deserters who had defected to the king of Babylon as well as the rest of the master craftsmen. 16 But Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard left some of the poorest people of the land to serve as vinedressers and as compulsory laborers.

(Jeremiah 52:27-30) . . .Thus Judah went into exile from its land. ²⁸ These are the people whom Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar took into exile: in the seventh year, 3,023 Jews. ²⁹ In the 18th year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, 832 people were taken from Jerusalem. ³⁰ In the 23rd year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard took Jews into exile, 745 people. In all, 4,600 people were taken into exile.

In Jeremiah 52, three different events from 3 different years were called "exiles." Why is it so important to you to dismiss the Bible to support the Watchtower chronology? It makes just as little sense to say these these were three exiles and only one deportation, which is also not true.

2 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Escaping to Egypt did the surviving Jews no good at all for 745 souls were taken Jer 52:20- most either ended up dead , or being taken into exile to Babylon. Even fewer will have managed to survive until the return in 537 BCE.

I hadn't responded to this in the post on that topic.

(Jeremiah 44:14) 14 And the remnant of Judah who have gone to reside in the land of Egypt will not escape or survive to return to the land of Judah. They will long to return and dwell there, but they will not return, except for a few escapees.’”

This does not say when those exceptions will return. And you have had to guess about when. It's a possibility, but there is no mention that the 745 refer to those who fled from Egypt. The point is that it was terrible, people fled for their lives, people came back, and it was a terrible desolation for all. Other exceptions were obviously the people put to work on the land who didn't really "count" among the persons exiled. Archaeology of various settlements shows evidence for continuous working of the land year after year. But nowhere does the Bible say that the land had to be without an inhabitant for the full 70 years. Only that Babylon's 70 years would result in a complete desolation of the land.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, scholar JW said:

Where does Jeremiah's 70 years fit in and where does Neb's missing 7 years and the twenty year gap in the NB timeline?

Jeremiah's 70 years fits perfectly within the 66 to 73 year period of Babylon's domination. Remember even the Watchtower is forced to explain it this way when they have to:

*** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 par. 21 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***
“These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.

It's the WT Chronology that gives Babylon 86 to 93 years. 70 does NOT fit within that range. So it's only the NB timeline that fits the Bible here, not the WT timeline.

Nebuchadnezzar's missing years, you claim are not there, and yet I just showed you how the Bible's timeline gives Nebuchadnezzar only the same 43 years that the NB timeline gives. So if you can't find the 7 years in Nebuchadnezzar's 43 years, and want another 7 to 20, that's just you kicking against the Bible's goads here.

And the 20 year gap in the timeline? There is no 20 year gap in the Bible's timeline, or in the NB timeline. The gap is only in the Watchtower's timeline.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, scholar JW said:

Read it again carefully!! Daniel's 'third year of Jehoiakim' is not that of his 3rd regnal year but that of his 'kingship'-NWT, or vassalage as again attested by Josephus and many other scholars.

I can accept that possiblity. But why does the Watchtower chronology need to claim that Daniel is wrong when mentioning Jehoiakim so that Insight claims it was really Jehoiachin?

*** it-1 p. 1269 Jehoiakim ***
Following the siege of Jerusalem during Jehoiakim’s “third year” (as vassal king), Daniel and other Judeans, including nobles and members of the royal family, were taken as exiles to Babylon. There being no record of an earlier Babylonian exile, this appears to place the event in the short reign of Jehoiachin, Jehoiakim’s successor.—2Ki 24:12-16; Jer 52:28.

Don't you think something must be wrong with a chronology that tells us to reject the Bible?

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

46 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

*** it-1 p. 1269 Jehoiakim ***
Following the siege of Jerusalem during Jehoiakim’s “third year” (as vassal king), Daniel and other Judeans, including nobles and members of the royal family, were taken as exiles to Babylon. There being no record of an earlier Babylonian exile, this appears to place the event in the short reign of Jehoiachin, Jehoiakim’s successor.—2Ki 24:12-16; Jer 52:28.

Don't you think something must be wrong with a chronology that tells us to reject the Bible?

There is nothing wrong with the chronology and it does not tell us to reject the Bible.

scholar JW

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

59 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Jeremiah's 70 years fits perfectly within the 66 to 73 year period of Babylon's domination. Remember even the Watchtower is forced to explain it this way when they have to:

*** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 par. 21 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***
“These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.

Indeed. Jeremiah's 70 years does fall within the NB Period as it began in the 18th regnal year of Neb and extended beyond the end of that Dynasty ending in 539 BCE with the fall of Babylon ending with the Return under Cyrus in 537 BCE. During that same period other nations experienced the yoke of Babylonian domination such as Tyre.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

It's the WT Chronology that gives Babylon 86 to 93 years. 70 does NOT fit within that range. So it's only the NB timeline that fits the Bible here, not the WT timeline.

The 70 years most certainly falls within the Babylonian timeline whichever of its length as explained above.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Nebuchadnezzar's missing years, you claim are not there, and yet I just showed you how the Bible's timeline gives Nebuchadnezzar only the same 43 years that the NB timeline gives. So if you can't find the 7 years in Nebuchadnezzar's 43 years, and want another 7 to 20, that's just you kicking against the Bible's goads here.

Neb's missing years are not accounted for in the NB secular history or Chronology. Its vacancy is your problem not mine.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

And the 20 year gap in the timeline? There is no 20 year gap in the Bible's timeline, or in the NB timeline. The gap is only in the Watchtower's timeline.

There is a 20 year gap in the NB timeframe because it does account for the 70 years beginning with Neb's 18th regnal year and Zedekiah's 11th regnal year.

scholar JW

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

The Insight book mentions two events at the beginning of the time when Babylon's domination of the region began. The subjugation of Assyria in 612 BCE (Standard timeline) and the battle of Carchemish in 605 BCE (Standard timeline). Just add the missing 20 years that the Watchtower can't find to get the Watchtower chronology:

*** it-1 p. 238 Babylon ***
In 632 B.C.E. Assyria was subdued by this new Chaldean dynasty, with the assistance of Median and Scythian allies. In 625 B.C.E., Nabopolassar’s eldest son, Nebuchadnezzar (II), defeated Pharaoh Necho of Egypt at the battle of Carchemish, and in the same year he assumed the helm of government.

The Babylonian Chronicles mark these battles at 73 years before 539 and 66 years before 539, respectively. Obviously the subjugation wasn't 100% complete 73 years before, but it was solidly proven by 66 years before. So a reasonable person would say that you could begin the count of domination somewhere between these two points. 70 is between 66 and 73. In fact, if you average the timeline between those two events you get the year 608.5 BCE. That represents 70.5 years of Babylonian domination using just those two primary events that INSIGHT speaks of as the events that handed the domination from the 2nd Empire (Assyria) to the 3rd Empire (Babylon). And, yes, the Babylonian Chronicles do record these events, that bring the "world empire" to Babylon.

So what! Accurate Bible Chronology properly fixes on notable datable events such as the Fall of Jerusalem which ended the Judean monarchy in Neb's 18th year and Zedekiah's 11 th year beginning the Exilic period of 70 years all with the framework of Babylonian and Judean history as outlined above.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

What do you think a deportation is? If this twisting of scriptures is supposed to be required to accept the WT chronology, then I would rather choose the Bible's chronology which speaks of multiple exiles. Judah went into exile through multiple exiles

(Jeremiah 1:3) . . .It came also in the days of Je·hoiʹa·kim the son of Jo·siʹah, the king of Judah, until the completion of the 11th year of Zed·e·kiʹah the son of Jo·siʹah, the king of Judah, until Jerusalem went into exile in the fifth month.

(Jeremiah 52:15, 16) . . .Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard took into exile some of the lowly people and the rest of the people who were left in the city. He also took the deserters who had defected to the king of Babylon as well as the rest of the master craftsmen. 16 But Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard left some of the poorest people of the land to serve as vinedressers and as compulsory laborers.

(Jeremiah 52:27-30) . . .Thus Judah went into exile from its land. ²⁸ These are the people whom Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar took into exile: in the seventh year, 3,023 Jews. ²⁹ In the 18th year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, 832 people were taken from Jerusalem. ³⁰ In the 23rd year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard took Jews into exile, 745 people. In all, 4,600 people were taken into exile.

In Jeremiah 52, three different events from 3 different years were called "exiles." Why is it so important to you to dismiss the Bible to support the Watchtower chronology? It makes just as little sense to say these these were three exiles and only one deportation, which is also not true.

I repeat only ONE EXILE but a few deportations as discerned by leading Exilic scholars

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

This does not say when those exceptions will return. And you have had to guess about when. It's a possibility, but there is no mention that the 745 refer to those who fled from Egypt. The point is that it was terrible, people fled for their lives, people came back, and it was a terrible desolation for all. Other exceptions were obviously the people put to work on the land who didn't really "count" among the persons exiled. Archaeology of various settlements shows evidence for continuous working of the land year after year. But nowhere does the Bible say that the land had to be without an inhabitant for the full 70 years. Only that Babylon's 70 years would result in a complete desolation of the land.

Both apply equally for that exact wording is not found in the Bible but is simply a construct clearly based on the 70 year textual corpus'

scholar JW

[Srecko Sostar]

6 hours ago, scholar JW said:

JW Insider

Are you an apostate?

:))) Stupid and scary at the same time.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@Srecko Sostar This comment below does not include you .

I can only assume that some people on here do not have a loving marriage partner to spend time with.   To spend so much time 'researching' all that 'stuff' and so much more time arguing about it all, when it has no real purpose.  1914 has no real purpose in relation to our Christian love toward God and Christ. And no one knows the day or the hour, and a 'day' in this instance would not mean a literal day. 

The scriptures, especially Paul's letters, tell us not to get caught up in silly arguments.  

But you 'guys' will probably continue to argue.  Oh how we need that True Anointed to guide God's people. 

[Srecko Sostar]

9 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Srecko, stupid are the ones who think he is not. Remember, most of his up-votes are from apostates like you. How about being coherent with your post for a change. Look at who he is citing with. Alanf, an ex-witness that doesn't understand history no better than JWinisder. O'Maly that doesn't understand how the ancients used astronomical signs, yet, they are hell-bent in supporting each other, just like you, John, and witness are hellbent in shaming God and Christ by your attitude and behavior in following the actions of men, rather than wanting to understand scripture the right way.

Therefore, read your own words on how scary it is not to understand your own words with your own behavior!

Okay, I can be stupid, because that's how you think of me. No big deal. But I wonder if giving down-vote for someone else’s comments is following Jesus ’example? You know what i mean, in style, love your enemies?  

GB member A. Morris, your human leader, claims that ex-JWs are apostates and that apostates are enemies. And he said how happy he is because all apostates will be dead soon. But he forgot to mention "his Leader Jesus" who says opposite; love your enemies.

:))

If you have time, send message to A. Morris with Bible verses:

Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
And do not let your heart rejoice when he stumbles,
Otherwise, the Lord will see and be displeased,
And turn His anger away from him. 

[Ann O'Maly]

29 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

O'Maly that doesn't understand how the ancients used astronomical signs,

How are you doing with the little math problem, CC? I'll repost it. Again, if you need help I can insert another picture for you.

  23 hours ago, César Chávez said:

306      Encyclopedia of Vedic Astrology: Wealth & Prosperity

 Leo. And for the odd signs of zodiac, namely the Aries, Gemini, Leo, Libra, Sagittarius and Aquarius, the first half of the sign or the first 15 degrees of the sign comes under the Hora of Sun in the sign Leo, and the next half of the sign or the next 15 degrees of the sign comes under the Hora of Moon in the sign Cancer.

Read more  

... you have been given an extra clue in the source you cited above. OK, let's have another go:

If half of a zodiacal sign spans 15 degrees, what would be the span of a whole zodiacal sign?

a) 15 degrees

b) 2520 years

c) 30 degrees

d) 1260 days

e) A partridge in a pear tree

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

How are you doing with the little math problem, CC? I'll repost it.

I think you must go challenge someone else. It is about ego for you - not about the truth of the bible.  I read a scripture today about "contentious" ones...... one cannot reason with them. 

The bible chronology speaks louder than any stars foretell..... in unreliable pagan writings.....