The trinity and it’s false theology.

[BroRando]

Why you are claiming Jesus is not Firstborn, where other angels created before him???  What scripture is that, or is that the Catholic Church Ouji Board saying that?  If you believe Jesus is God wouldn't you claim he's eternal and always existed?   Never begotten but always existed??

King James 2000 Bible
And again, when he brings the firstbegotten into the world, he says, And let all the angels of God worship him.

"We know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose;  because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (Romans 8:28-29)

 

[BroRando]

13 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Now you are going off from "firstborn" to begotten? Can we not stick to one thing at a time?.

I am....

King James Bible (Hebrew 1:6)
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

The reason you don't believe Col 1:15 is that your cult rejects the Deity of Christ,  It too is a Divine Creation.... a second time from being Born Again... Something completely alien to you. That's why (Hebrews 1:6) says And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world,

Strong's Concordance

theotés: deity

Original Word: θεότης, ητος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: theotés
Phonetic Spelling: (theh-ot'-ace)
Short Definition: deity, Godhead
Definition: deity, Godhead.

 

[Malum Intellectus]

TRUST JESUS

On, Daniel 3:25. Only because it is King Nebuchadnezzar making that statement, not the Watchtower. Babylonians believed in many “gods” so it wouldn’t be surprising to read that from a person in ancient times.

The Earliest Text of the Hebrew Bible: The Relationship between the Masoretic Text and the Hebrew Base of the Septuagint Reconsidered (Septuagint and Cognate Studies Series)

Author(s): Switzerland) International Organization for Septuagint and Cognate Studies. Congress (2001: Basel

Publisher: Society of Biblical Literature, Year: 2003

The old interpretation (Breton) has since then been updated to a more factual rendering.

Werner Bible Commentary

In the Septuagint (but not in the Greek version of Theodotion), Nebuchadnezzar is identified as governing “cities and territories and all those dwelling on the earth from India to Ethiopia.” The Aramaic text of Daniel does not include these words nor does it mention the year when Nebuchadnezzar “made,” or directed the making of, an image of gold. Although the Dead Sea Daniel scroll (4QDana) from about 60 BCE contains only a fragmentary portion of verse 1, the missing part could not have included the year.

A Dead Sea Daniel scroll (4QDand) identifies those to whom Nebuchadnezzar then spoke as “his officials.” To them, he mentioned seeing four unbound men “walking in the midst of the fire.” They were unharmed by the flames, and the “fourth one” resembled a “son of the gods” (an “angel of a god” [3:92, LXX]; a “son of a god” [3:92, Theodotion) (3:25)

[ShariKind]

20 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

@Brother Rando "You are forced to deny the son who was begotten from the Father.   "Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22)  "

Unless the watchtower cult, i am allowed to think for myself and read the Bible WITHOUT watchtower influence.

I am forced to accept what the Bible says.

But how? I mean many people claim to accept what the Bible says, but they interpret it in their own way. For instance, many believe they are going to be taken to heaven when the earth is burned up, they take this literally as the earth being burned up. (That's just one example of how some believe how the end of the world will happen, although you are on a different subject, the point is: accepting what the Bible says can have many variations of thought as to what it really says.)

[ShariKind]

22 hours ago, ShariKind said:

Do you believe he was on the earth at all prior to his appearance as a man?

@Jesus.defender,do you believe Jesus was on the earth prior to his appearance as a man? I think it's important to understand inasmuch as the Bible allows us to. You said, Jesus was not on the earth in BODILY form (prior to his human birth). Do you think he was ever on the earth before that in some shape?

[Jesus.defender]

18 hours ago, Brother Rando said:

I am....

King James Bible (Hebrew 1:6)
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

The reason you don't believe Col 1:15 is that your cult rejects the Deity of Christ,  It too is a Divine Creation.... a second time from being Born Again... Something completely alien to you. That's why (Hebrews 1:6) says And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world,

Strong's Concordance

theotés: deity

Original Word: θεότης, ητος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: theotés
Phonetic Spelling: (theh-ot'-ace)
Short Definition: deity, Godhead
Definition: deity, Godhead.

 

We are talking about "firstborn".

 

 ‘Firstborn’ (Greek: prototokos) does NOT mean ‘first-created’ (Greek: protoktisis). First-created (Protoktisis) is never used of Christ in New Testament.
 

[Jesus.defender]

21 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

@Brother Rando "You are forced to deny the son who was begotten from the Father.   "Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22)  "

Unlike the watchtower followers, i am allowed to think for myself and read the Bible WITHOUT watchtower influence.

I am forced to accept what the Bible says.

You are forced to believe what the watchtower says their bible says.

Now you are going off from "firstborn" to begotten? Can we not stick to one thing at a time?.

The watchtower has brainwashed you with lies about what Christians believe. You and the watchtower have NO IDEA what Christians believe.

 

But, i WILL answer your "begotten" thing.

 

John 3:16 - ‘He gave His only begotten Son’.

Watchtower teaching: JWs teach that the term ‘Son of God’ refers to Jesus as a separate created being, just as Isaac was called Abraham’s ‘only begotten son’ (Hebrews 11:17), and that Jesus as ‘Son of God’ was not God Himself. JWs claim that Almighty God is the Father of Jesus in the same sense that Abraham is the father of Isaac. JWs claim that God is the senior, and Jesus is the junior - in time, position, power and knowledge.

The Bible teaching: Isaac was not Abraham’s ‘only son’. Abraham had begotten a number of other sons, such as Ishmael, Zimram, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah (Genesis 25:2). The term ‘only begotten Son’ means that Isaac was Abraham’s unique son. Hence Jesus is ‘the only begotten Son’ in the sense that no-one else is as unique as Jesus. Jesus is alone all that God is. ‘All things that the Father hath are mine.’ (John 16:15).

If Christ has all the attributes that the Father has, then Christ is God, because only God has eternality, omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence.

Question: What did ‘Son of’ mean among the ancients? The idea that the title ‘Son of God’ indicates inferiority to the Father, is based on a faulty conception of what ‘Son of’ meant among the ancients. Though it can mean ‘offspring of’ in some contexts, it also carries the more important meaning: ‘OF THE ORDER OF’

It is used in this way as follows:
i) ‘The sons of the prophets’ (I Kings 20:35) meant ‘of the order of the prophets’;
ii) The ‘sons of the singers’ (Nehemiah 12:28) meant ‘of the order of the singers’;
iii) ‘Of the sons of Asaph’ (Nehemiah 11:22) meant ‘of the order of Asaph’.

Hence, the phrase ‘Son of God’ means ‘of the order of God’ as a claim to Christ’s undiminished Deity.
Ancient Jews and Orientals used the phrase ‘son of’ to indicate sameness of nature and equality of being. When Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, His Jewish contemporaries fully understood that He was claiming to be fully equivalent to God.
Hence, when Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, the Jews said, ‘We have a law, and by our
law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God’. (John 19:7).
‘he said that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.’ (John 5:18).

Ask: If the phrase ‘son of’ meant sameness of nature and equality of being among the ancients, as historical records clearly show, then what does this tell us about the meaning of the phrase ‘Son of God’?

Christ was Son of God before His human birth:

i) ‘For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world . . .’(John 3:17).
That Christ, as the Son of God, was sent into the world, implies that He was the Son of God before His incarnation.
ii) Proverbs 30:4 shows God as the Creator who has a Son: ‘What is his name, and what is his son’s name?’
This speaks of God the Father and God the Son in present tense terms in OT times.
iii) ‘the form of the fourth is like the Son of God’. (Daniel 3:25).
Nebuchadnezzar threw three men into the fiery furnace, yet he saw the Son of God walking with them in the furnace. The Masoretic Text and Septuagint reads, ‘Son of God’(singular) not ‘a son of the gods’ as in the JW New World Translation and the NIV.

 

[Jesus.defender]

55 minutes ago, ShariKind said:

But how? I mean many people claim to accept what the Bible says, but they interpret it in their own way. For instance, many believe they are going to be taken to heaven when the earth is burned up, they take this literally as the earth being burned up. (That's just one example of how some believe how the end of the world will happen, although you are on a different subject, the point is: accepting what the Bible says can have many variations of thought as to what it really says.)

Sorry, i meant "Unlike the watchtower followers, i am allowed to think for myself and read the Bible WITHOUT watchtower influence."

 

Now you are off onto a DIFFERENT topic, the rapture and heaven.

 

What subject DO you want to discuss?

[Jesus.defender]

22 minutes ago, ShariKind said:

@Jesus.defender,do you believe Jesus was on the earth prior to his appearance as a man? I think it's important to understand inasmuch as the Bible allows us to. You said, Jesus was not on the earth in BODILY form (prior to his human birth). Do you think he was ever on the earth before that in some shape?

"You said, Jesus was not on the earth in BODILY form (prior to his human birth). "

 

No offense, but from memory, i NEVER said that.

 

please quote me, my friend.

[Jesus.defender]

8 hours ago, Malum Intellectus said:

TRUST JESUS

 

On, Daniel 3:25. Only because it is King Nebuchadnezzar making that statement, not the Watchtower. Babylonians believed in many “gods” so it wouldn’t be surprising to read that from a person in ancient times.

 

The Earliest Text of the Hebrew Bible: The Relationship between the Masoretic Text and the Hebrew Base of the Septuagint Reconsidered (Septuagint and Cognate Studies Series)

 

 

Author(s): Switzerland) International Organization for Septuagint and Cognate Studies. Congress (2001: Basel

 

Publisher: Society of Biblical Literature, Year: 2003

 

The old interpretation (Breton) has since then been updated to a more factual rendering.

 

Werner Bible Commentary

 

In the Septuagint (but not in the Greek version of Theodotion), Nebuchadnezzar is identified as governing “cities and territories and all those dwelling on the earth from India to Ethiopia.” The Aramaic text of Daniel does not include these words nor does it mention the year when Nebuchadnezzar “made,” or directed the making of, an image of gold. Although the Dead Sea Daniel scroll (4QDana) from about 60 BCE contains only a fragmentary portion of verse 1, the missing part could not have included the year.

 

A Dead Sea Daniel scroll (4QDand) identifies those to whom Nebuchadnezzar then spoke as “his officials.” To them, he mentioned seeing four unbound men “walking in the midst of the fire.” They were unharmed by the flames, and the “fourth one” resembled a “son of the gods” (an “angel of a god” [3:92, LXX]; a “son of a god” [3:92, Theodotion) (3:25)

 

WHICH "earliest" text?

 

WHERE is it that i can check this statement.

Also, be weary of the "septuagint".

 

do your own independent homework, my friend. ( I do not mean that in a derogatory way )

 

[Jesus.defender]

18 hours ago, Brother Rando said:

Claiming God is Firstborn is an untruth pushed by Anti - Christians.  God is eternal not chief, foremost, or pre-eminent.  Archangel comes from the Greek root word arche',



So paul is an anti-Christian?

 

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"

[Jesus.defender]

19 hours ago, Brother Rando said:

746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial(starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief(foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").

 

This word is NEVER used for archangel. If it is, please show me.

The word ‘Beginning’ is ‘Arche’ (746) in Greek which has a wide range of meanings, such as:

a) ‘Head’ in the Hebrew, Greek, English Interlinear Bible.

He is called ‘the Head’ because He is before all things, all things were created by Him and for Him (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:10). It refers to Christ as the One who created all things, not to Him as a created being.

b) ‘The Active Cause as in Colossians 1:18, Revelation 1:8, 21:6, 22:13, 3:14. Christ is called ‘the beginning’ because He is the active cause of creation.

c) Rule, power or authority. ‘...power (arche) of the governor’ (Luke 20:20). It refers to Christ as the ‘one who begins, the origin, source, creator, or first cause’. (Spiros Zodhiates, NT Word Study, p.260,261)

d) The Originating source through whom God works, not the first of the creatures as held by Arians and Unitarians. (A T Robertson, Word Pictures in NT. Vol 6,p 321).

2) The English word ‘architect’ comes from ‘arche’.

Jesus is the architect of all creation (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2).

Christ is the source and primary fountainhead of all creation.

3) ‘Arche’ is also used of God as ‘the beginning and the end’.(Rev. 1:8(not KIT), 21:6, 22:13).

The use of ‘arche’ of God Almighty does not mean that God had a created beginning.

God is the beginner and first cause of all creation. ‘Arche’ in Revelation 3:14 is used of Christ in the same sense as the beginner and first cause of all creation.

Ask: Since ‘Arche’ used of God Almighty does not mean that He had a created beginning, why do you insist that when ‘Arche’ is used of Christ that it means He had a created beginning?

4) It is almost always used of a ruler or magistrate or principalities. (Romans 8:38, Ephesians 3:10, Colossians 2:15; Luke 20:20, Jude 6.)

The NWT translates the plural of ‘Arche’ as ‘government officials’ in Luke 12:11.

5) The English word ‘archbishop’ is one who is in authority or rules over bishops.

This means that Christ has authority or rule over all creation in Revelation 3:14.

6) Christ as the ‘beginner’ of creation harmonises with other NT passages about Christ as Creator, such as: Colossians 1:16,17 ‘by him were all things created’; Hebrews 1:2 ‘by whom also he made the worlds’; John 1:3‘all things were made by him’.

The JWs must add ‘other’ in Colossians 1:16,17 to harmonise those verses.

7) Only God is the Creator. ‘I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself’ (Isaiah 44:24).

Since Christ is the Creator of all things, this proves that Christ is God Almighty, just as the Father is.

Conclusion: ‘Beginning’ in Revelation 3:14 is ‘Arche’ meaning that Christ is the active cause, originating source, architect, beginner; and ‘ruler’ over creation.