Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"

[Srecko Sostar]

Can somebody who has read this book tell us, does Furuli  give some thoughts about people who left WTJWorg?

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

YOUR COMMENT ABOVE IS CLICK BATE OF COURSE. But it just makes you look very childish in a bad way. 

How can it be click bait, you klutz—there’s no place to click!

[Arauna]

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

if you still hang on to bitterness at our age

Wisdom speaking.  If one has not made peace with the world and learnt to be forgiving and kind after 60 years........ your life has been wasted...... you have not learnt anything.

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You don’t have to know much about the actors to follow the play

The actors may be playing a role but the play is reality...... sad....... that people are wearing masks and hats and do not realize it.

[Arauna]

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Especially JWs because they are told to change, it does not happen naturally.

Same old judgmental attitude......No, those who ' willingly' change by personal choice and are sincere in their brotherly love learn to  put up with imperfect brothers BUT those who change because they are told t, those are the ones who  become rebellious and become hate-mongers.....and call others dictators.  They never followed jehovah from free will in the first place. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@Arauna  Thank you for the comedy reply. Oh blind sheep that you are, will you never learn.

Quote TTH  How can it be click bait, you klutz—there’s no place to click!

Little heart shaped thing bottom right side of each comment Tom. Open your eyes man. 

•  

[Arauna]

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

blind sheep that you are, will you never learn.

My dear, there is none as blind as those who have their eyes wide shut. I usually try to work with those who have something redeemable about them because they can say something I can agree with or learn from when I do not agree.  

You have only one message and it is the same old, same old.... and if I call you out you get personal...... so do not even bother to call me something else because  you revert back to same MO.......

At least the hate-OCD is consistent...... gotta give you credit for that!.  

[Space Merchant]

@Arauna Yes, and in my case, it is as if it is a cultural sin.

@Srecko Sostar Any day now, it still amazes me when you post a response and it prompts question, you do not wish to answer it. The irony of it all, the answer to that very question befits what too place thereafter, hence when it comes to that Bible verse in question, you miss it's context. So again, as done before, as is being done now, 1 John 4:1 has been used against you (This verse being used against you time and time again is tragically telling, even for you).

[Space Merchant]

On 6/4/2020 at 7:12 AM, 4Jah2me said:

That is an insult to Mr Rook. 

It is more of a running gag on this forum.

Apparently even for me, if anyone states a small bit of Old English or simply say "That being said," automatically it brands someone as Space Merchant. I remember someone assume this one member, I believe it was Alex and they assume Alex was me.

Then again, I always say that for a final notation in a response, discussion, challenge and or debate.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @Arauna  They never followed jehovah from free will in the first place. 

Following God through Christ is very different to following the CCJW through the GB and Elders.

But you will never see this, hence i say you are blind because you will not even consider it as possible. 

[JW Insider]

 

On 6/4/2020 at 2:45 PM, César Chávez said:

While I criticized Furuli for using Zondervan publishing house to make an unscriptural depiction of the GB

Yikes! You are still harping on about Zondervan? Yes, for some reason, when you first brought up Zondervan, it was to say that Furuli didn't do a thorough research, and you provided a link about Zondervan's supposed association with the "Satanic Bible" and "Joy of Gay Sex." You didn't actually make a specific connection to how Furuli used it to make an unscriptural depiction of the GB. But you did also copy a place from Furuli's book where he mentions support from Wood's commentary on Galatians. From page 205 and 206 you can see that his use of the Wood's contributions to the Expositor's Bible Commentary is to find the range of meanings for the Greek term "en pleonexia". It's not so much about a depiction of the GB in this case as it is a discussion of a list of offenses that the Bible associates with disfellowshipping. But, I agree, that ultimately he tries to relate this to the GB's excessiveness in finding reasons to disfellowship that go beyond the things written in the Bible.

On 5/31/2020 at 8:08 PM, César Chávez said:

I will admit, I love his references like authors from the Zondervan publishing house. A publishing house that printed the Satanic Bible. This just tells me, Furuli didn’t do a thorough research.

http://www.holywordcafe.com/bible/resources/Zondervan.htm

Wood, A.S., Galatians, The Expositor’s Bible Commentary. Grand Rapids:Zondervan, 1978

So if you had something else in mind about his particular use of the Expositor's commentary by Zondervan, you can correct this assumption.

On 6/4/2020 at 2:45 PM, César Chávez said:

because of higher education and legal matters that you took offense of, YOU are the one that mentioned the watchtower also uses Zondervan.

I didn't take offense "because of higher education and legal matters." I merely disagreed with Furuli's apparent lack of full objectiveness on the topic. He could have found some areas of agreement with the Watchtower on the topic of higher education, but he seemed inflexible, not open to any agreement on the topic.

Yes, I was the one who mentioned that the Watchtower also uses Zondervan. This is not a "diversion" at all, as you called it. It merely sets up a test as to whether your reasons were consistent: perhaps allowing for the use of a commentary by one entity, but not another.

On 6/4/2020 at 2:45 PM, César Chávez said:

I will allow the watchtowers own criticism of Zondervan do the talking for them.

If you actually went to the trouble of going through some of 70 Watchtower references to Zondervan publications to find one that was negative among dozen's of positive ones, then this might even say more about whether you are consistent with your own criticism. All it would take is just one positive use of a Zondervan published Bible or commentary to show possible inconsistency, if not dishonesty, and hypocrisy. 

So, I wonder what will happen if I check the most recent Watchtower Library CD, in order, without skipping any references:

To make it simple, I will just search the term Zondervan, not worrying about the overwhelmingly positive uses of Zondervan Bible's and publications that are used with only a reference to their title, and not the publisher. I'll mark the positive in green and negative in red, and make them smaller so they don't take up too much space here:

Positive:

*** nwtsty C3 Verses Where the Divine Name Does Not Appear as Part of Direct or Indirect Quotations in the Book of Luke ***
• Zondervan Illustrated Bible Backgrounds Commentary, 2002, (Vol. 1, pp. 331-332) makes this comment on Luke 1:32: “Most High . . . the Lord God (1:32). Both of these are Greek translations of Old Testament names for God. The first is from El Elyon, ‘God Most High,’ and the second from Yahweh Elohim, ‘Yahweh God.’

Positive:

*** nwtsty C3 Verses Where the Divine Name Does Not Appear as Part of Direct or Indirect Quotations in the Book of Luke ***
• Zondervan Illustrated Bible Backgrounds Commentary, 2002, (Vol. 1, pp. 345-346) says of Luke 2:26: “This phrase is equivalent to the Old Testament expression ‘the LORD’s Anointed’ . . . and carries the sense, ‘Yahweh’s chosen agent of redemption.’”

Positive:

*** nwtsty C3 Verses Where the Divine Name Does Not Appear as Part of Direct or Indirect Quotations in the Book of 2 Corinthians ***
In The Expositor’s Bible Commentary, 1976, (Vol. 10) Murray J. Harris, in a comment on 2 Corinthians 3:17, explains that “the Lord [= Yahweh] of v. 16.”

Positive:

*** nwtsty C3 Verses Where the Divine Name Does Not Appear as Part of Direct or Indirect Quotations in the Book of 2 Corinthians ***
NIV Zondervan Study Bible, edited by D. A. Carson, 2015, explains regarding 2 Corinthians 3:16: “‘the LORD’ (i.e. Yahweh) of Exod 34:34, to whom the unbeliever must turn.”

Positive:

*** it-1 p. 1069 Hebrew, II ***
Knowledge of the Language Incomplete. In reality, knowledge of ancient Hebrew is by no means complete. As Professor Burton L. Goddard says: “In large measure, the O[ld] T[estament] Hebrew must be self explanatory.” (The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary, edited by M. Tenney, 1963, p. 345) This is because so few other contemporaneous writings in the Hebrew language have been found that could contribute to an understanding of the word usage

Negative (full context should be checked.)

*** w01 9/1 p. 3 Is There a Devil? ***
Do you agree that “the devil is in reality man’s invention to account for his own sinfulness”? That statement appears in The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, and many who profess to be Christians think that way. Christendom’s theologians, says Jeffrey Burton Russell, have by and large “dismissed the Devil and the demons as superstitious relics.”

Positive:

*** w93 11/1 p. 14 par. 7 A King Profanes Jehovah’s Sanctuary ***
In Daniel’s time, Kittim was Cyprus, and early in the first world war, Cyprus was annexed by Britain. Moreover, according to The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, the name Kittim “is extended to include the W[est] in general, but esp[ecially] the seafaring W[est].” The New International Version renders the expression “ships of Kittim” as “ships of the western coastlands.”

Positive:

*** w80 1/15 p. 8 Can Human Government Meet the Challenge? ***
The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible correctly says:
“The kingdom of God never means an action undertaken by men or a realm which they set up. However noble may be the idea of laboring to establish the kingdom of God, the Biblical terminology is completely inconsistent with the language of modern liberal theology. The kingdom is a divine act, not a human accomplishment nor even the accomplishment of dedicated Christians.”

Positive:

*** w77 4/1 p. 217 The Text of the Christian Scriptures—How Accurate? ***
Too, at times copying was done from dictation. Certain manuscripts indicate that in isolated instances scribes confused words that sounded alike (as the English words “bare” and “bear”).
As further causes for variant reading in Bible manuscripts, The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible notes: “A scribe’s eye might skip from the first to the second occurrence of the same word, causing omission of the intervening material; he might read the same word or phrase twice; or he might confuse a word for a word of similar appearance. . . .

Positive:

*** w77 12/1 p. 708 Cain and His Wife ***
The Bible statement, in Acts 17:26, that “[God] made out of one man every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth” is acknowledged by Bible students to be backed up by the facts. John Peter Lange’s Commentary on the Holy Scriptures, a work that considers the arguments of a great number of scholars in an analytical and explanatory discussion of the Bible, says on page 191:
“That the Scriptures neither know nor will know of pre-Adamites . . . nor of various primitive aboriginal races, appears not only from Genesis i. and ii., but also from the consistent presumption and assertion of the entire Holy Writ; for example,

Positive:

*** w76 10/1 p. 603 Cyrus, a Man with a Prophetic Role ***
Commenting on this statement of Josephus, The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible (Vol. One, p. 1055) says: “There is every reason to accept the testimony of Josephus at this point.” Many critics, however, disagree. They simply cannot accept that the prophecy about Cyrus could have been written before the fall of Babylon in 539 B.C.E.

Positive:

*** w68 8/15 p. 492 par. 18 The Book of Truthful Historical Dates ***
“Cyrus entered Babylon on October 29, 539 B.C. and presented himself in the role of the liberator of the people.”—The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary, 1965, p. 193; see also pages 93, 104, 198, 569.

Positive:

*** g93 10/22 p. 5 A New World—Will It Ever Come? ***
“The kingdom of God never means an action undertaken by men or a realm which they set up,” explains one Bible encyclopedia. “The kingdom is a divine act, not a human accomplishment nor even the accomplishment of dedicated Christians.”—The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible.

Positive:

*** dp chap. 2 p. 27 par. 26 Daniel—A Book on Trial ***
The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible: “A Maccabean dating for Daniel has now to be abandoned, if only because there could not possibly be a sufficient interval between the composition of Daniel and its appearance in the form of copies in the library of a Maccabean religious sect.”

Positive:

*** dp chap. 15 pp. 262-264 par. 13 The Rival Kings Enter the 20th Century ***
The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, the name Kittim “is extended to include the W[est] in general, but esp[ecially] the seafaring W[est].” The New International Version renders the expression “ships of Kittim” as “ships of the western coastlands.”

So, you happened to find the only negative comment. But it turns out that the Watchtower actually agrees with this part of the Zondervan publication in this case, too. A more complete form of the quote is this:

"The concept of a personal devil is unacceptable to many minds today. The objection is raised that the existence of a personal devil is incapable of scientific proof. Therefore, it is claimed that the devil is in reality man's invention to account for his own sinfulness" [The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, vol. 5, p. 285].

If you look carefully at the context of the Watchtower that quoted it, the Watchtower is making the exact same points. In other words they are in agreement with the "Zondervan" statement that this is what is claimed by many.

Therefore, your own selective quoting here leads me to believe you are giving more evidence of your own dishonesty.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

21 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

He could have found some areas of agreement with the Watchtower on the topic of higher education, but he seemed inflexible, not open to any agreement on the topic.

I wrote about Wayne Whitepebble’s son in Tom Irregardless and Me, how he 

“went to the university. He didn’t really want to go, and probably would not have were it not for his dad. Wayne had come up the hard way financially. Why should his son do the same? The lad was bright and landed a scholarship. He took the path of least resistance.

“You’ve got to get me out of here!” the young man cried during the first week of school. “There’s naked women running around here!” Well, they weren’t exactly naked - or maybe some of them were. They certainly were naked compared to anything Willie was used to. “Deal with it,” Wayne Whitepebble replied. “You’re staying.” He wasn’t worried for his son spiritually. Hadn’t Willie had a fine moral upbringing? Hadn’t the family visited the local Kingdom Hall to introduce him around? Hadn’t Wayne asked the local elders to keep an eye on his son? During the first few weeks of class, an elder did try to visit Willie, but never found him in.

“In time, Willie met someone he liked a lot. He went further with her than he had ever imagined he would. Thoroughly upended, he grappled with his thoughts and feelings, and then went further still. During those weeks, he attended two meetings at the new Kingdom Hall. How strange that he had once felt so attached there. Nobody there had a clue as to the challenges and pressures of his current life, much less the broadened horizons he was beginning to envision.

“College life with Madison was an entirely new experience. Living in the dorms, darting to the stately buildings for classes, crossing paths with fellow students, speaking with professors - what a new world this was. There was much more to life than he had ever dreamed. There were, however, bumps along the way. Madison had been initially intrigued at his spiritual take on matters, but he soon came to realize that he had been raised 180 degrees out of sync with this new world, and he began to resent it. He’d been ill-prepared for life! Classmates moved about seamlessly where he was most awkward. To think his religion had had him believing in Adam and Eve! He’d spoken of those two once, and had never done it again.

“His fellow students marched to protest injustice. What a difference he and Madison could make! There were real injustices. Yes, he’d learned about injustices back at the Kingdom Hall, too, but somehow it wasn’t the same. And to think that Tom Irregardless, when confronted with some news report he didn’t understand, which was almost anything, would dismiss it all with ‘it just goes to show we need the Kingdom!’ How long had he been saying that?  There were injustices in the world that an enlightened person could do something about now, not just in some fairy tale ‘new system.’

In time, the atheists came along. ‘How could there be a God with all the obscene things going on today? What God could allow it?’ If there was a God, he would have fixed things long ago! Actually, wasn’t religion at the root of injustice? Even his former one - even that one was guilty for plodding along with blinders, ignoring real problems, pushing everything onto the ‘new system.’ When Wayne Whitepebble saw his boy a half year later, he barely knew him. How could those elders in the local congregation have been so negligent?”

I freely admit that I am being imaginative. Ironically, the thing that seems the most far-fetched of all, the father saying “deal with it”—that actually happened (so I am told)—those were his actual words to his son over his complaint of “naked women”—everything else I made up.

You would think that Rolf would find room for that somewhere in his book. Attending college as an adult is not the same as attending as a teenager.

[JW Insider]

57 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You would think that Rolf would find room for that somewhere in his book. Attending college as an adult is not the same as attending as a teenager.

Funny! But it looks like you'll have to write another of your own on this. Rolf makes a point that students rarely have to even see each other in today's universities. And he started writing some of this after Covid-19 lockdowns. He uses that point to show that it's becoming even less necessary to see anyone else [except on some brands of a Zoom screen].