CHINA: Fake News vs. Real News

[JW Insider]

It was my fault that a recent topic about Russia and Scientology was diverted to a discussion about China. So I moved the China-related posts here.

[Arauna]

13 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

f the Holy Scripture as Hate Speech,

In China they rewrote the bible......and replaced worship of jesus with Xi Ping photos in churches. and in the west they are busy forming a new religion for us - which will unite all people supposedly. 

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/Good-News-From-God-Video-Series/video-why-did-jesus-die/

World religions, UN unite for book on faith and action for the Earth | Earthbeat | National Catholic Reporter (ncronline.org)

This should set you thinking - we will be required to put faith in mother earth with the new environmental goals of UN.

[Space Merchant]

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

In China they rewrote the bible......and replaced worship of jesus with Xi Ping photos in churches. and in the west they are busy forming a new religion for us - which will unite all people supposedly. 

Yes, this is why majority of the various Chinese Christian groups are either underground and or had escaped to Hong Kong to evade the crackdowns (it is likely they had been compromised around this time), while others are captured and getting "Social Credit Scored" to the point of vanishing. At the same time, over the years, this enabled those who think they know the Bible to form groups, spawning cults in China that can fit the description of Heterodox teachings, i.e. Church of the Almighty God, their core belief is that God has returned to earth as a Chinese woman to wreak the apocalypse, and this group is behind various murders. There are several others of which some believe the CCP is defending, for what reason? It is unknown. Moreover, it is extremely difficult now compared to 3 years ago to get any information in China, and I believe any Truther there post-Hong Kong Protest in many months ago, were heavily suppressed, especially now because of the Taiwan/Japan situation.

As for Xi Jinping, the CCP considers him like that of a God. Although we know what the law says about Gods, as is with worshipping the True God, but it seems the CCP applies The One True God title to this man. The CCP is problematic, so much so, there seems to be a bit of infighting, in Jinping's case, he has been challenging former leader Jiang Zemin for quite some time, and this guy is equally bad, for he had a role on crackdowns prior. There was also recent rumor of a police operation that could have been used against Jinping, but that was scrubbed quickly.

That being said, as of recent in China, here has been recent brainwashing of the youth, Greece summiting to China and the CCP sapping resources from an African country, Nigeria, not to mention what some under the CCP has done to the people in parts of Africa, but the children, specifically, young girls, for this also plays a role in increase tension, even racisms, granted Pro-Black Groups to react in such a way that is problematic. Then there is the black market, which is a whole different can of worms.

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

This should set you thinking - we will be required to put faith in mother earth with the new environmental goals of UN.

Yes, but it will not be a surprise should some people break/crack under intense pressure and or something equating to that. This is why what I said in the other response, and or what I have been saying for a while on here, is vital. The United Nations is a threat, and although no one here is really political, if what they did several times triggered Conservatives, that should be a wake up call of what is to come, granted them and now the ACLU has been targeting the amendments.

That being said, the influence is very strong, and should things hasten their actions, it will indirectly effect many, just like this reset that is to come in relation to COVID-19. This will also reveal who is truly strong in their faith in God and who is not, granted the compromising situation people are in today. It should also not surprise you that opposition will use whatever indirect change or action committed to weaponize against you, i.e. mandates which cause division results in people professing their own conspiracy and speak of it as a truth.

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

In China they rewrote the bible.

This isn't true.

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

and replaced worship of jesus with Xi Ping photos in churches

The likelihood that "China" did this is also pretty close to zero.

[TrueTomHarley]

2 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

This isn't true.

This statement needs sourcing, both for and against.

3 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The likelihood that "China" did this is also pretty close to zero.

This tool.

I have heard statements similar to Arauna’s, probably through Bitter Winter, but maybe some other avenue. ‘Throw it on the stack of things to check out’

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This statement needs sourcing, both for and against.

Even that solution has a built-in problem. The reason is that the goals of various organizations can easily be reached by merely leveraging the West's distrust of China. When any of the individuals and organizations would like attention or funding they need only report a negative story from China, and then claim that the negative action was an official act of the Chinese government.

It's like someone reading about a bank robbery in the United States, and then claiming that Biden (or Trump, etc) is now seizing all bank assets in the United States. Too many people in the world read English for such a story to gain traction anywhere. But stories about China can even pretend to be correctly translating a Chinese posting, and not enough people would complain. My son and I went through a NYT article a couple years ago that linked to several pages of Chinese documentation about Chinese goals with respect to religion, anti-terrorism, etc., and many of its translations were skewed to the point of creating direct falsehoods. Some were about as bad as if an English article had said "the U.S. Public School system provides education and vocational training" and the translation became "Regime-sponsored juvenile detention centers promote propaganda and forced labor."

The idea of the US "provocation diplomacy" is to make sure that all these anti-China stories, some true, some exaggerated, and some made up out of thin air, will become such a constant stream that it's too tedious to produce material defending the preposterous. So the general idea of a dystopian regime sticks. You won't find material defending against every negative claim. Because even if China stands up 100% against a preposterous claim, the report in the West is still going to be that China "admitted" the problem when they didn't. Or that China said they aren't doing that any more. Or that they could only deny the problem in the face of "overwhelming" (i.e., non-existent) evidence.

This probably sounds ludicrous, to most consumers of anti-China reporting, but I have amazing examples of everything I just said.  

It is true that religion is not the same thing in China as it is in Christian and Muslim countries. In the West and Mid-East, the depth of one's faith is shown by how strongly you will stand up for (and how strongly you will defend the difference between) your belief and the belief of something you think gets in the way of that belief. In the US, it's often the fundamentalists against "progressive politics" that defend or promote abortion and gay rights and the like. In the Mid-East it can be the same thing, or the difference between two version of Islam. Even in the US, UK, and elsewhere in Europe, a thousand times more religious ink has been spilled over the tiniest of differences between similar religions than over the major differences between disparate religions.

In China most people don't think of religion as beliefs that need to conflict with the state, they just think of religion as sets of specific, traditional old rituals. This was also true in old Greece and Rome, where most religion was hallowed rituals, not specific beliefs. So the communist propagandists in China are really more actively "religious" in "evangelizing" a belief system than they would expect of the religions themselves to be evangelizing. In fact, it's promoting beliefs where most of the problem lies with Christian-styled religions in China. They all inevitably came from the West, and most of them have also been the source of spies and missionary-imperialism. Today, the ones that get in trouble try to convert people from non-Christian religion to Christian religion, and most of those have made strong statements against governments in general, and the Chinese government specifically. The communist ideologists, still feel a duty to try to convert Western religionists to a more secular or at least a more ritualistic religion that doesn't fly in the face of the state.

I know of a non-JW case in China where the young man, of a 'Christian' religion, was exploited by a evangelizing group from Spain when he was in college in China. When it was discovered that this evangelizing religion was exploiting young people for money, and volunteer evangelism, it was only that group from Spain who got in serious trouble, but not the Christian group he was already a part of. 

[Pudgy]

Some things are BOTH improbable to the point of absurdity ... and of no immediate real-world-right-here-right-now consequence to be worth the effort to even toss it into a stack to check out.

Other things are thesis length epistles trying to be encyclopedic which would be interesting, except that they are somehow not.

... and rust never sleeps.

 

[Arauna]

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This isn't true.

Because your son was a naive student in China a few years ago and you were a tourist you know all a out Xi ping...... 

Did you read the UN report and their warning to China and China's subsequent promise to stop harvesting organs (a few years back....)?...... and then they  proceeded as usual with the same business but made sure that it does not leak out again.. yet reports kept on slowly leaking out. The labor camps for muslims also leaked out.... 

Xi Ping  has started to institute Mao se Tung policies. ..... that is also a lie. The predatory loans to Uzbekistan, Kazakstan, Tajikistan and all the other silk road countries  and Shri Lanka's subsequent warnings to the Philippines about the predatory loans are all Hogwash. Indonesia and Australua  have not run into problems with them either.....Cina's disregard for forests in Africa and decimation of fish (due to predatory agreements are also hogwash.....the extinction of black rhinos in north africa for their horns are also hogwash. I can go on and on about the many countries that have run into their deceitful traps. 

Next thing you will say they are NOT imprisoning students in Hong Kong and NOT disappearing people who stood for freedom in Hong Kong. . I GUESS ALL THOSE INVASIONS OF Taiwan and Japanese airspace in the past two months is also a lot of hogwash....... it is merely propaganda........ China is the victim of propaganda....... China is not part of the beastly governments of the world and a good match for the predatory behaviour of the USA - both predatory beasts.

The oppression of Tibet and other countries in the Himalayas to take control of the water resources are all lies and their invasion of Indian territory is all hogwash....... lol. 

The institution of behaviour passports on their own citizens linked to their bank accounts is merely Western propaganda...... The Chinera- experimentation in their gene- labs is all ethical and above board and so it the Wuhan lab ........ all ethical, pure and clean. 

Saw pictures yesterday of  700 year old Muslim mosque with its minarets removed, Chinese letters on it and the dome removed. It looks like a good old communistic building. Saw a few photos of a few mosques which have been "renovated".  

Worship of the state is now required...... 

 

[Arauna]

6 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

CCP is problematic, so much so

Many of their oligarchs have received prison sentences. The Alibama oligarch was let out of prison recently and half of his wealth was taken away. .....

 

[TrueTomHarley]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The reason is that the goals of various organizations can easily be reached by merely leveraging the West's distrust of China.

Well…..what I do remember for absolute sure is Al Capp’s S,W.I.N.E (Students Wildly Indignant over Nearly Everything) members effusively greeting the Russian general as he strides on shore from his military transport ship. The first thing the general does is kick them all in their behinds, seemingly for the sheer reason that he is mean.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Because your son was a naive student in China a few years ago and you were a tourist you know all a out Xi ping...... 

He probably thinks that the Ukraine girls really do leave the West behind.

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Because your son was a naive student in China a few years ago and you were a tourist you know all a out Xi ping...... 

No. My own study and research about China is ongoing, not just based on a visit or a long association with a Chinese colleague who visited family in both HK and the mainland every year. And my son's learning of the language and continuing contact with several people in several districts of China is also ongoing. And still, I don't know all about Xi.

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Did you read the UN report and their warning to China and China's subsequent promise to stop harvesting organs (a few years back....)?.

The basic modus operandi of anti-China propaganda is to exaggerate a long list of items, so that if one is seen to be possibly debunked, then a whole slew of other issues are ready to be flung. This way, one can always divert attention against specific bits of propaganda by merely saying, "Oh yeah, then what about Taiwan? . . . What about the China Sea? . . . What about the Uyghurs? What about the Wuhan lab? What about Tibet? What about damming rivers and water rights? What about Inner Mongolia? What about Hong Kong? What about organ harvesting? What about support of countries that the West hates? What about mining in Africa? What about trade wars, currency manipulation, aggressive military actions, etc.?

The list is made long enough so that a complete debunking of any one claim will be meaningless. Any debunkable bit of propaganda must still be true, because the long list of other items must prove that there is no need to pay attention to evidence about any single item. The mind is shut before one can discuss the first item, much less a second and a third item. 

And then there is the problem that anyone defending China in the midst of all this propaganda must immediately be labeled naive. That person will be seen as trying to exonerate China completely from these issues, even though some have a partial basis in truth. This implies the strawman argument that a defender must think China can do no wrong.

I won't take on your list of issues again here by showing where the likelihood of both evidence and lack of evidence actually points. But I would repeat again that a lot of evidence and research tells me that most of the anti-China propaganda I have heard, including most of the topics you bring up, are based on exaggerations and re-interpretations of issues that are common to many countries. When these issues are repeated widely, often, and over long periods of time, they become intractable. A lot of lies and propaganda are told about Western countries, too. Much of it is based on some fact, but it's mostly a geopolitical game that goes on everywhere.

I know that in the past I personally was much too reflexive and naive in just accepting anything bad I heard about China, just because I knew that they really are pretty bad on a few issues (like accepting freedom of religion). 

Edited to add: Any statements or evidence I might offer that defends China from exaggerations should not be confused with defending Japan, Russia, or Ukraine, or any of the several countries which are forced to look to China for aid when those countries are cut off from Western alliances for aid.