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2 hours ago, Thinking said:

but I give Rutherford great credit in getting us out of idolatry with the pagan celebrations…Jehovah puts up with a lot from ones he sees fit to use…..thank goodness !!!

I have quite often had those same thoughts, about Rutherford, about how hard it is to be virtuous, and also wonder why Jehovah puts up with any of us at all.

From available records, it seems Rutherford was a drunk, a bully, and an all around exploiter of the Brotherhood, but the points you made are quite valid, and I know it takes a century to change a culture. He was such an AH that when he died of rectal cancer, the Bethel Family considered it poetic justice, and only two people attended his funeral, one of then Nathan H. Knoor.

But then again, George S. Patton was just as big an AH, and believed in reincarnation, but with the soldiers that hated him, was instrumental in destroying the Nazis during WWII.

... it takes a hundred years and three generations and  more to change a culture ...

Unless you can drop two atomic bombs on them and really get their attention, a near impossibility.

Ho Ho Ho!

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Are you one?….being a witness of the Almighty does not make us push overs..or doormats….I dont join in a lot here because it gets a bit childish ….but do not be mistaken Dmitar….Jesus is the Chief Com

Oh great! You’ve doxxed them. Now they’ll be deluged with scammers and telemarketers! Good work, Bowser.

Right here:  I’m working up a post on this one. Not quite there yet, but an excerpt is:  It didn’t take long for word to spread about the new UN statue—doesn’t it looks a lot like one

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9 hours ago, Thinking said:

the GB has since changed it back to Russell’s understanding……but I give Rutherford great credit in getting us out of idolatry with the pagan celebrations…Jehovah puts up with a lot from ones he sees fit to use…..thank goodness !!!

Changing back to Russell's view has happened with several teachings, including the elder arrangement, identification of the superior authorities, etc. But I also give Rutherford great credit in getting us out of idolatry, not just with the pagan celebrations, but with the idolizing of Russell himself. Rutherford claimed that the brotherhood was literally worshiping Russell and he called it "creature worship."

But we shouldn't get the idea, of course, that Russell was always such a paragon of virtue himself. He lied in court about business matters he had involved the Watchtower with. And when his perjury was obvious, Russell changed his story 180 degrees. Rutherford knew these things about Russell, having been his attorney, as his defense of Russell in 1915 shows.

Curiously, right up to the last book of the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) the Jews are still being condemned for giving in to idolatry. Yet it was the scribes and Pharisees who deserved credit for freeing the Jews from idolatry from that period forward, so that idolatry was no longer the problem in Jesus' day. It's true that Jesus condemned them for hypocrisy, but Jesus didn't condemn them for all their teachings. In fact, Jesus told his audience that they should still do what the Pharisees tell them to do, just not to do as they do. In Mark, Jesus says to one of them: (Mark 12:34) . . .At this Jesus, discerning he had answered intelligently, said to him: “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”. . . And we also know that not just Nicodemus, but a great many from the Pharisees became believers. And one became an apostle.

9 hours ago, Thinking said:

Rutherford himself admitted he ..”had made a complete ass of himself over a lot of his writing..”…

I thought that was only over his failed predictions for 1925. And it was evidently only privately to a few persons at Bethel that he admitted this. In the Watchtower he blamed the brotherhood for believing it, rather than admitting that he himself had anything to do with it.

To me, I think all of this is a great lesson that we don't put our trust in earthling man, in whom no salvation belongs. But we appreciate the good teachings and continuing improvements that we have shared together. The copper has become gold. It's not about the overseers themselves, but about what the right motivations bring.

(Isaiah 60:17) . . .Instead of the copper I will bring in gold, And instead of the iron I will bring in silver, Instead of the wood, copper, And instead of the stones, iron; And I will appoint peace as your overseers And righteousness as your task assigners.

If you look closely at the words here, it's not saying that the overseers themselves will be righteous humans, but that we will be led by peace and righteousness "itself." Not humans, specifically. Here's how the NIV puts it:

(Isaiah 60:17, NIV) Instead of bronze I will bring you gold, and silver in place of iron. Instead of wood I will bring you bronze, and iron in place of stones. I will make peace your governor and well-being your ruler.

So, yes, Russell might have sometimes been a perjurer, and Rutherford might have been a "drunken, womanizing, cigar-smoker" (as my old "table head" at Bethel called him). But we still greatly appreciate what has been accomplished over the years. What Jehovah has accomplished is often (as some old-timers still say) in spite of us, not because of us. What must actually be happening is that Jehovah's spirit acts upon us as a group because of our own love for one another. It's not specifically because of what we are always told to believe, but because of our pure and peaceful and righteous motivations. Love and joy and peace and faith, etc., are what bring Jehovah's spirit to all of us, including the good influence on the ones taking the lead.

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On 12/24/2021 at 12:27 AM, Pudgy said:

because the Pleiades is the place of the eternal throne of God."

Nothing significant is left out of the quote, in spite of the ellipses. This teaching wasn't Rutherford's doing. Russell believed it too. Rutherford hadn't finished "rethinking" all the things he wanted to change from Russell's time. It wasn't until about 1931 that he had pretty much finished getting rid of nearly everything that was uniquely "Russellite."

But as you say, culture is hard to change. When this Pleiades teaching finally was dropped, it was replaced with the "Rutherfordite" method of applying nearly everything in the Hebrew Scriptures to 1918:

*** w53 11/15 p. 703 Questions From Readers ***
What is meant by ‘binding the sweet influences of the Pleiades’ or ‘loosing the bands of Orion’ or ‘bringing forth Mazzaroth in his seasons’ or ‘guiding Arcturus with his sons,’ as mentioned at Job 38:31, 32?—W. S., New York.
Some attribute striking qualities to these constellations or star groups and on the basis of such they then offer private interpretations of Job 38:31, 32 that amaze their hearers. Their views are not always sound from the standpoint of astronomy, and when viewed Scripturally they are completely without foundation. ... Incidentally, Pleiades can no longer be considered the center of the universe and it would be unwise for us to try to fix God’s throne as being at a particular spot in the universe. ...
It has particular application to Jehovah’s people now. In the prophetic drama of Job he represents the faithful followers of Christ on earth at the end of this system of things, specially from 1918 onward. He represents the anointed remnant of the body of Christ, how at that time they were afflicted, in captivity to Satan’s organization, Babylonish Christendom in particular. They could not understand why Jehovah permitted this affliction from the world, and particularly from Christendom. They did not appreciate just what Jehovah’s purposes were concerning them, and so it was appropriate for God to specially reveal himself to them as the Supreme One of the universe and that the big issue was his universal domination over all creation, animate and inanimate. From and after 1918 Jehovah has made these points stand out.

There are even hints here and later in the article that the "real" explanation had more to do with believing that the "superior authorities" were God and Christ, and not the secular authorities. (A point also made in another article of the very same issue of the Watchtower.) That teaching wasn't changed until nearly 10 years after this article. But the points about Jehovah's sovereignty were still very valid.

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7 hours ago, Pudgy said:

But then again, George S. Patton was just as big

I didn’t like when he shot the jackass, though I suppose you can’t sacrifice the entire WWII effort on its account. I did like when he reappraised his toast decision, based upon ‘one SOB to another.’

49 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

What must actually be happening

Where is that recollection of the old bro tilting back in his chair whenever the younger ones take to squabbling and observing, “It’s amazing what Jehovah accomplishes considering what he has to work with.”? I like the observation of Jesus that it’s the one’s in need of a physician that actually seek one out.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Curiously, right up to the last book of the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) the Jews are still being condemned for giving in to idolatry. Yet it was the scribes and Pharisees who deserved credit for freeing the Jews from idolatry from that period forward, so that idolatry was no longer the problem in Jesus' day.

They were responsible for leading the people away from Jehovah by teaching teachings of men - hence making themselves very important

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2 hours ago, Arauna said:

They were responsible for leading the people away from Jehovah by teaching teachings of men - hence making themselves very important

That's definitely true too. But Jesus still encouraged people to follow what they said. Naturally that didn't mean in everything without question.

(Matthew 23:2, 3) . . .“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but they do not practice what they say.

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On 12/24/2021 at 6:41 PM, Thinking said:

Aaaaah…we’ll that’s a lesson learnt for me

This is interesting. First you stated that asking someone if they are a Jehovah's Witness is insulting, and now you make an assumption of whom a poster is. The same sarcastic comment @TrueTomHarley made about not knowing who people are here, and they are liars, while another person @Arauna suggests letting it go. 

I guess, I should be insulted that you Jehovah Witnesses here are rude and obnoxious by trait, and want to be quarrelsome all the time.

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13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Changing back to Russell's view has happened with several teachings, including the elder arrangement, identification of the superior authorities, etc. But I also give Rutherford great credit in getting us out of idolatry, not just with the pagan celebrations, but with the idolizing of Russell himself. Rutherford claimed that the brotherhood was literally worshiping Russell and he called it "creature worship."

But we shouldn't get the idea, of course, that Russell was always such a paragon of virtue himself. He lied in court about business matters he had involved the Watchtower with. And when his perjury was obvious, Russell changed his story 180 degrees. Rutherford knew these things about Russell, having been his attorney, as his defense of Russell in 1915 shows.

Curiously, right up to the last book of the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) the Jews are still being condemned for giving in to idolatry. Yet it was the scribes and Pharisees who deserved credit for freeing the Jews from idolatry from that period forward, so that idolatry was no longer the problem in Jesus' day. It's true that Jesus condemned them for hypocrisy, but Jesus didn't condemn them for all their teachings. In fact, Jesus told his audience that they should still do what the Pharisees tell them to do, just not to do as they do. In Mark, Jesus says to one of them: (Mark 12:34) . . .At this Jesus, discerning he had answered intelligently, said to him: “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”. . . And we also know that not just Nicodemus, but a great many from the Pharisees became believers. And one became an apostle.

I thought that was only over his failed predictions for 1925. And it was evidently only privately to a few persons at Bethel that he admitted this. In the Watchtower he blamed the brotherhood for believing it, rather than admitting that he himself had anything to do with it.

To me, I think all of this is a great lesson that we don't put our trust in earthling man, in whom no salvation belongs. But we appreciate the good teachings and continuing improvements that we have shared together. The copper has become gold. It's not about the overseers themselves, but about what the right motivations bring.

(Isaiah 60:17) . . .Instead of the copper I will bring in gold, And instead of the iron I will bring in silver, Instead of the wood, copper, And instead of the stones, iron; And I will appoint peace as your overseers And righteousness as your task assigners.

If you look closely at the words here, it's not saying that the overseers themselves will be righteous humans, but that we will be led by peace and righteousness "itself." Not humans, specifically. Here's how the NIV puts it:

(Isaiah 60:17, NIV) Instead of bronze I will bring you gold, and silver in place of iron. Instead of wood I will bring you bronze, and iron in place of stones. I will make peace your governor and well-being your ruler.

So, yes, Russell might have sometimes been a perjurer, and Rutherford might have been a "drunken, womanizing, cigar-smoker" (as my old "table head" at Bethel called him). But we still greatly appreciate what has been accomplished over the years. What Jehovah has accomplished is often (as some old-timers still say) in spite of us, not because of us. What must actually be happening is that Jehovah's spirit acts upon us as a group because of our own love for one another. It's not specifically because of what we are always told to believe, but because of our pure and peaceful and righteous motivations. Love and joy and peace and faith, etc., are what bring Jehovah's spirit to all of us, including the good influence on the ones taking the lead.

When he said he’s made a ass of himself it was over a book he wrote…and I forget the actual heading but I’ll have a go st….then is finished the mystery or something like that…it was a study book….I remember the word mystery….and I also remember feeling thankful I wasn’t around at the time as it was a big book to study and then realize all that time and effort would have been wasted…that was the reason why he said that…..I’m not sure of anything else..other than his changes to so many of Russell’s thoughts….of which many as you say have been returned to…thank goodness!

 

Things we’re rough back in those days…you should here of some of the stories from old Australian brothers and how they reacted to being banned….in the Second World War…a few  physically tried to defend the KHs…..as they were being confiscated legally by the government.Those men back then built and payed for those  halls…life was very hard then.

Different era…different culture…tough people….probably had to be like that to survive those times….must say that was a nice post JWI

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On 12/26/2021 at 4:45 AM, JW Insider said:

I thought that was only over his failed predictions for 1925. And it was evidently only privately to a few persons at Bethel that he admitted this. In the Watchtower he blamed the brotherhood for believing it, rather than admitting that he himself had anything to do with it.

Can you expand on your thought here, since you are qualifying your statement with a proposed fact? Judge Rutherford died in 1942. Does that mean you are at least old enough to have known that individual personally? Or are your stated facts an assumption in writing of others?

 Furthermore, can you explain on the manner in which Judge Rutherford made a false prediction for 1925 when people at that time claimed, that was the reason he built Beth-Sarim which was built in 1929. How can that argument be substantiated, 4 years apart?

 In the book “Salvation” in page 311, it reveals how that building would house prominent people of bible time. Joseph Franklin Rutherford made no mention those prominent men would be resurrected in 1925 other than having an analogy that those prominent men would one day be resurrected to earth. God’s promise of resurrection is a well-founded assurance.

 Do Jehovah Witness not believe in God’s Promise of resurrection?

 Given the fact, the Bible Students believed they had entered into the last sprint of the last days or the end of the ages after 1914, can you explain why that ideology won’t be considered by them?

 It is true, Beth-Sarim was not built with Watchtower contributions but rather built for two purposes, to house an ailing President and his directors, and to someday in the future house prominent men returned from their sleep.

 I find no fault in such meaningful thoughts that were proper for the time. It doesn’t make sense today, since the world will be opened to all the resurrected and no one will go without housing. I believe that was a reason, aside from the cost to maintain it, it was sold in 1948.

 There are many buildings standing today from centuries ago that house spiritual leaders.

 At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929, there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth-Sarim. The Hebrew words Beth Sarim mean "House of the Princes"; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus and in His kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth. The title to Beth-Sarim is vested in the WATCH TOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY in trust, to be used by the president of the Society and his assistants for the present, and thereafter to be forever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes on the earth. To be sure, everything then on the earth will belong to the Lord, and neither the Lord nor the princes need others to build houses for them; but it was thought well and pleasing to God that the aforementioned house be built as a testimony to the name of Jehovah and showing faith in his announced purposes. The house has served as a testimony to many persons throughout the earth, and while the unbelievers have mocked concerning it and spoken contemptuously of it, yet it stands there as a testimony to Jehovah's name; and if and when the princes do return and some of them occupy the property, such will be a confirmation of the faith and hope that induced the building of Beth-Sarim.

 I can also suggest it was the news media at that time claiming the Russelites were awaiting the end of times in 1925 by a New York Times article.

The last time I asked for a clarification, your response was rude and uncalled-for. I would appreciate you hold, your anger to give a proper response. As a Christian, I don't subscribe to being quarrelsome like most of you Jehovah's Witnesses.

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