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Let me make it clear - I do not explain to those with permanent OCD hate of JWs.   I do not waste my time.  I am tired of same old, same old..........

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15 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Let me make it clear - I do not explain to those with permanent OCD hate of JWs.   

Sometimes things speak for themselves and I think that is nowhere more evident than with her comments—even more so with her manner than with the comments themselves. Imagine—invariably including a deluge of scripture—and yet none are selected unless they elevate her own piety and can be used to put down those she dislikes. I have never seen her make any other use of verse.

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19 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

she easily could be accused of “running ahead,” and “going beyond the things written”

True,  but I do not go beyond what is written in the bible.  NEVER!  If we are to meditate on things in the bible, we definitely will come up with insights that are not broadly accepted but this does not mean it is wrong to speculate.  .... or wrong to see a new insight.  Even Angel's wish to peer into these things.  

I see what is in the bible and what is in the world and make a connection.   I see what is in the bible about scientific subjects and  make a connection with what I know or have read.... it has enriched my thinking and love for the truth.

I have prayed about this..... that jehovah chastize me if I am moving in a wrong way...... I am ready to be corrected. ...... running ahead can be like spiritism.... so it is something to be careful of...... show caution..... on the other hand I do think things are moving in certain directions in the world and I think think things are moving fast. 

I do not "bend" scriptures as I have seen some do here. 

 

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17 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Hey bub, it's your governing body who keeps on changing the spiritual food they dish out, which is supposedly from Jehovah, it's your governing body who are telling Jehovah what to say, and you are worshipping them, that's all on you.

Anna seems to think you were being sarcastic toward JW’s and Not God. What she “fails” to understand is, I wasn’t referring about JW’s but instead concentrated on your own blasphemous words?

“Its good food until it becomes rotten, and Jehovah has to come up with new food”

God doesn’t need to provide anything to us humans. He does so, so that we can benefit from his spiritual wisdom. God gave up his son as a sacrifice in order for humanity to have a second chance for internal life. How dare you insinuate as well as Anna that it was meant to be sarcastic toward JW’S?

How dare you command God that he has to come up with new food? That’s what “has to” is, a command. When, did you become above God to order God to do something. An attack to God’s sovereignty as well.

Your blasphemous statement that “Jehovah has to come up with NEW FOOD is a direct attack on God. You have made the, grievous of sins since you attacked God’s Holy Spirit that dispenses that “fine” fruits. IT IS UP TO GOD TO DECIDE IF THAT FRUIT SHOULD BE REVISED FOR THE NEXT GENERATION, NOT YOURS, NOT WITNESS, NOT JWINSIDER, NOT TTH, NOT ANNA, NOT JTR, NOT ANYONE’S BUT HIS ALONE.

Anna might want to dismiss your words. She can’t. She doesn’t have the power to forgive such a sin. She, might think so, but she would only be fooling herself.

People need to start respecting God more here. As for the governing body. They hold, apply, and obey God’s words more than you. You are a sanctimonious and arrogant man that just lost his soul.

This is the kind of Christianity being argued here by opposers? Get behind me Satan. That’s all on you Bub!

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20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

If we are to meditate on things in the bible, we definitely will come up with insights that are not broadly accepted but this does not mean it is wrong to speculate.  .... or wrong to see a new insight. 

Of course. I said that you “could easily be accused of running ahead.” I didn’t say that I would do it. I would not. Everyone here “runs ahead” to one degree or another. Moreover, the censure of anyone here doesn’t matter. It is understood that the site has nothing to do with the congregation and does not attract any Witness that is typical.

20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Even Angel's wish to peer into these things.  

Yes. It was my answer that I never got around to making when CMP—or was it JWI?—presented his wish list of what the annual meeting might present. He wished for less emphasis on the nearness of the end, and even suggested that the last days should be understood to have commenced in Jesus’ time. “Angels are desiring to peer into these things” I almost said. “Are you going to tell them to straighten up and get back to work?”

20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I see what is in the bible and what is in the world and make a connection.   I see what is in the bible about scientific subjects and  make a connection with what I know or have read.... it has enriched my thinking and love for the truth.

It makes the Bible come alive when we do this.

20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I have prayed about this..... that jehovah chastize me if I am moving in a wrong way...... I am ready to be corrected.

One really can’t go wrong with this attitude. I do this myself—and all the more so since I am clearly “out there” for a brother.

20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I do not "bend" scriptures as I have seen some do here. 

Whole lotta bending going on here, that’s for sure.

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Every time I hear any counsel against "running ahead", I think ... running ahead of what ... or who?

It's important that we differentiate from "running ahead" of the words of the Bible, which results in "old light", touted as "new light" ... until "newer light"  comes out, of which many of us old-timers have seen so much of that it seems like a disco lounge strobe light.

I think running ahead of the pontifical pronouncements of the WTB&TS management is quite a different issue than running ahead of Jehovah God, or completely unambiguous scripture.

But ... it seems to me, as individuals, that if you are in the race for life, which should be secondary to serving Jehovah God just because he is worthy of service, and obedience, and honor .... that it's better to be ahead of the race, instead of behind the race.

Why not as an organization?

Because If we as individuals are wrong, only we "pay the price" of being wrong, and have to bear the consequences.\

If we as an organization are wrong, we as individuals STILL have to pay the full price for being wrong  .... times 8 million people ... and the perpetrators pay NO PRICE WHATSOEVER.

Everybody knows that in a horse race ... ONE of the horses is going to win.

Which one, makes all the difference in the world.

A three legged horse with motivation, spunk, desire and the best behaved horse in the whole pack of runners may be all of that and more ... but for sane people, that is not the way to bet. 

There is also the issue of intellectual integrity ... but that is another topic.

In over a hundred and five years of recorded experience of watching "OUR" horse run ... what track record do we have to use as a basis for credibility?

For core truths discerned ... arguably about 95%.

For mountains of drivel, false prophesies, bogus types and anti-types, and silliness and pronouncements that defy all common sense, perhaps somewhere around 85%, with 15% having real value, or at a minimum, even making some form of common sense.

And of course, being obviously flat WRONG, when simple human common sense could have avoided that.

SO ... basically the WTB&TS position is that THEY can run ahead all they want, and if we do not believe what they come up with, we can be disfellowshipped and have our and our family's lives ruined ...... but if WE run ahead we can ALSO be disfellowshipped and have our and our family's lives ruined.

.... and no matter what they do ... no matter how egregious ... the money keeps rolling in, and they NEVER apologize for anything.

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22 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

You have not chased anyone away.

Actually I have. And I don’t mean chasing them away by being unpleasant. I mean by specifically cautioning a few, who seemed too unaware of their surroundings, that they should think it through before they continue to engage. I didn’t say that they shouldn’t do it—that is up to them—but that they should know the score before they did. @Indiana is the last one I did this with. Ask him if you doubt it.

22 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

This site is meant to give spiritually weak people the platform to speak out against the Watchtower.

Yes, but I have taken it over, and it will now do what I want it to. You have helped me in this, by insisting time and again that I am the owner. No one else has done that. “If he gets people thinking that, then I might as well carry on as though it were so,” I have “reasoned.” It is amazing to me that this has happened, but there it is. Sometimes I even wish that @admin or @The Librarian (that old hen) will get fed up and ban me, for I sure do spend a lot of time here and maybe that time would be best spent elsewhere. Ah well...if Admin’s fears are realized, this site will not be around much longer anyway.

I also feel strongly about not stumbling others and about not spreading contentions among brothers. When Bruce G carried on as though he had been stumbled after I liked the comment of an “apostate,” I decided not to do that anymore. I held to that resolve for the longest time, and I still almost never do it. Of course, that concern is partly offset by the realization that anyone so concerned about stumbling ought not be here in the first place, but I stopped “liking” comments of certain ones nonetheless. It is understood that this site is a collection ranging from atypical and avant-garde Witnesses to those who can’t stand them. This must be understood going in. (It is those few who did not seem to understand this that I have cautioned.) You can’t charge into someone else’s home and accuse him of not playing by your rules.

22 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

What they do care, is “sitting the record straight” about many deceptions, misleading, misguided, misrepresentation and plain false allegations about the Watchtower and Bible Truth.

You know very well that the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses would not recommend your engaging here any more than they would me. They would not say: “whole lotta liars on that site, but not to worry—we have our man Allen to straighten them all out.” 

While I doubt very much that you have done so, I have candidly written the WBTS as to what I am doing. While I am “rogue” I do not want to be “out of control.” I respect their lead. I do not think that I am above them. Were I to hear: “What are you doing, TTH, singing on the wall when Hezekiah has told the troops to zip it—you’re messing everything up!” I would desist. I have not received any reply. 

22 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

The point is, this site has a “false” presentation about “News regarding JW.org, Watchtower, IBSA including...  change your website platform to exclude the Watchtower and stop advertising this site as a JW friendly site.

It is true about much of this site—that it pretends to be what it is not. I stumbled across it in just that way, through an advertisement on Twitter. I was quite put out about the deceptive advertising—many of my early posts reflect that. Whether it was wise for me to stay I still do not know, but stay I did and I used the site to hone my own writing and parlayed that into some books. It has been a lot of fun for me, but no way is it conventional. If one transforms the whole place into a comedy club, that is another way of discrediting the malcontents who frequent here, which I believe you have said is your goal.

And for crying out loud, Allen, it is not my site. Everyone else understands this but you—well, they probably do not all understand it at this point because I have played into it. But you made it all possible.

 

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I have prayed about this..... that jehovah chastize me if I am moving in a wrong way.

Invariably the ones who examine themselves closely over broadcasted reproof are the ones for whom it was not intended and do not need it. The blockheads for whom it was intended simply dig in their heels and press on afresh.

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19 hours ago, Witness said:

Yes Tom, I have more power to mislead a JW than 8 men put together.  Incredible, isn’t it? 

:)))) this one is good !

9 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

What fine fruits can you bear with hate in your heart?

I don't see @Witness showing hate to anybody or to JW's.    

9 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

I see you still try to impress everyone by your long post.

I have short posts and still not impressed none of you :))))))))) 

And of course, zealous for something what person doing or talking about can be viewed from some people as strong opposition (hate) to something what somebody take as sacred in own eyes.

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2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

:)))) this one is good !

Let her be your anointed one, then. She clearly wants her anointed credentials to be recognized by somebody. You’ll do. You may have to tell her that you don’t believe in God first.

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    • The old method of handling this was to use the expression "present truth." Many adventists including Seventh Day still use the expression. It's based on a mistranslation of 2 Peter 1:12 where the KJV said: Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. The tendency among 19th century Adventists was to see a "chronology" element or "time" element in the English expression that did not exist in the original Greek. Therefore, the idea was that: even when in the midst of learning or teaching falsehood, it was still "present truth" at the time, and what is now "present truth" could turn out to be false in the future, but it will always have been "present truth" because it's always the best we had at the time. From the Greek, this is better translated as "the truth that is present in you" (American Standard and NWT).  A similar rush to see a time element in the English translation was done by Barbour and Russell and others who had been associated with Adventists. Here's an example from Leviticus: (Leviticus 26:28) 28 I will intensify my opposition to you, and I myself will have to chastise you seven times for your sins. This was originally the primary source for Russell's 7 times = 2,520 years, and the 7 times of Nebuchadnezzar's dream about his own insanity was only a secondary source. But we have since learned that Leviticus here didn't refer to chronological "times" but the sense was "7 times as much" as in "I will hit you twice as hard, or three times as hard, or seven times as hard." This was already in the context, but chronologists and numerologists rarely notice the context until they have already formed a time related doctrine. (Leviticus 26:18-21) . . .“‘If even this does not make you listen to me, I will have to chastise you seven times as much for your sins. . . . 21 “‘But if you keep walking in opposition to me and refuse to listen to me, I will then have to strike you seven times as much, according to your sins. Now that we have noticed this, we have been stuck with using Nebuchadnezzar as if his wicked Gentile kingdom somehow represented Christ's Messianic non-Gentile kingdom. (Another contradiction between 1914 and the Bible.) We still tend to make a "chronology word" out of things having to do with time when we translate the Greek word for time as "appointed time" instead of what might better be translated as "opportune time." Note that it's the exact same word "time" in these two verses: (Ephesians 5:16) 16 buying out the opportune time for yourselves, because the days are wicked. (Luke 21:24) . . .and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled. Neither the word opportune nor appointed is found in the Greek, only the word time. But the more typical meaning is "opportunity" as in: Will you find the opportunity to do this? Will you find the time to do this? Not: Will you find the appointed day and hour to do this? We have added a more specific chronological sense that usually isn't necessary in the Greek.  
    • Elon Musk shows himself to rather out of touch with science. He is using his money to make a name for himself by driving forward with some outlandish plans. He is an embarrassment to his own employees sometimes when he quotes pseudo-scientific ideas that have been obsolete for decades. (One of these was the idea of using nuclear explosions to make Mars inhabitable.) But his optimism to get employees to "make it happen" will drive some scientific progress in spite of himself. Even here, however, he has often just attached his name to some idea that came out of Japan or China or some US or European scientific think tank that was never associated with Musk. He attaches his own unrealistic timelines to these ideas, however, and then begins to lose credibility.  This particular idea has some merit, but there is a lot more expense in creating the infrastructure than people realize. There is the mining of the elements that go into solar cells, the manufacture of solar panels, the trucking of materials to such a solar hub, the infrastructure to build out the lines from the hub across the USA. Currently these types of expenses reduce the ROI value of this particular type of renewable energy so much that it makes carbon (coal/oil/petroleum) seem much more desirable for generating power, and for which an infrastructure is already in place. When viable, I would like to see how close to Hoover Dam this could be built to re-use some power lines that emanate from there, and already reach to many southwest states. Perhaps an even better idea would be to find a place near Yuma or Mexicali, so that half of the power would be used to desalinate water for Mexico and the US by piping saltwater from the Gulf of California, then freshwater back out with a mountain or salt and minerals as a byproduct.    
    • I think that's exactly correct. But we know that as Christians we are still under under a duty to question, reflect, test, prove, meditate, and "make sure of all things." We must do this even if it were an angel out of heaven giving us the interpretation, according to Galatians 1 and 2. And Paul specifically applied that thought to the way the Galatian congregation(s) should have tested and made sure of the incorrect counsel coming from council of elders at Jerusalem, because evidently some were too quick to accept that counsel just because it came from those who seemed to be pillars in the congregation. To Paul, he said, it didn't matter who those men were, or what they seemed to be, and he even included Peter, James and John in that idea of who to question. John himself later wrote that we should test the inspired utterances (1 John 4:1). I have. And the Watchtower has also claimed to have found MANY previous misinterpretations of prophecy which interpretations they said came from God, and yet warranted a redefinition of that interpretation. In fact I quoted you one of several places where the Watchtower has admitted exactly what you say you have not found: *** ws17 June p. 13 par. 16 Set Your Heart on Spiritual Treasures *** At times, our understanding of a Bible prophecy or a scripture may be adjusted. When that happens, it is important to take the time to study the adjustment and meditate on it. (Acts 17:11; 1 Timothy 4:15) We not only need to understand the main differences between the old understanding and the new one, but we also need to pay attention to the details of the new understanding. I've seen you accuse others here of blasphemy, when they defended the Bible, and yet you are able to make a statement such as that! Yes, certain Bible Student congregations continued to follow the Barbour/Russell advent timeline, which included Rutherford and the Watchtower editorial board, up until about 1927, with some intermediate adjustments over time to what Russell had said about 1914, and 1915, and with some brand new ideas about 1918, and 1925. Russell's concerted effort to "finally understand his own chronology" barely changed a thing, except for a few changes to some Great Pyramid measurements, and some vacillations between 1914 and 1915, and a change around 1904 to push the period of tribulation to the few months after 1914 instead of the few months (or years) before 1914. I would agree that Edgar's pyramid scheme hardly influenced Russell. That's because Edgar only wanted to get even more details on the subject, and completed most of this work after Russell had already published all he had to say on the Pyramid. Also, Russell was already satisfied enough with the details he had borrowed from Joseph Seiss. You say: "Perhaps, that is where the confusion lies" but there is no need for any confusion at all. Russell's works include all the necessary details, and they are all easy to find. If we wish to discuss Russell's own published views, we don't need to worry about the many other groups that sprung from Barbour's and Russell's teachings. I think I know what you are talking about. I think the admins or moderators here consider it spamming when someone overuses a long string of a dozen or more dislike emojis at the rate of one per minute on the posts of people they dislike, and a string of a dozen or more "like" emojis at the rate of about one per minute on their own accounts of different names. I think once a person is caught doing this once, it's dangerous to keep doing this with even with a smaller string of up-votes and down-votes. Sometimes the give-away to the game is when the down-vote is simply a negative response to a Scripture or a direct quote from the Watchtower.
    • I would like to expand on the above quote. New truth/old truth......in the same WT in the preceding par (15) it says; "We discovered some priceless truths when we first began to associate with God’s people. These could well be described as “old,” in that we have known and appreciated them from the beginning of our Christian course. What do such precious truths include? We learned that Jehovah is our Creator and Life-Giver and that he has a purpose for mankind. We also learned that God lovingly provided the ransom sacrifice of his Son so that we might be freed from sin and death. We further learned that his Kingdom will end all suffering and that we have the prospect of living forever  in peace and happiness under Kingdom rule". So the "old" truths here are defined as old from the point of view of age. These are the backbone, basics, elementary, fundamental or key doctrines as JWI describes at the outset of this thread. These have not changed. Then there is the "old" as defined in par 16; "old understanding". So we are not talking about any new truth as in newly discovered truth, but an adjustment or new understanding of what has already been taught previously. In this case it really doesn't make sense to call something old truth and new truth because truth can only be one. If it's not truth, its falsehood. So in my opinion, unless something is "old" established truth, the backbone of our Biblical doctrine, then anything else that falls into the "viewpoint" category of "truth" (or the shadow that is thrown) should not have to be accepted as the "absolute Truth", and should it really become "a part of our collection of Bible truths"? (Of course with any kind of truth, whether relativism, universalism (absolute truth) etc. one can go into great depths of the philosophy behind these concepts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth) (Interestingly, JWI WT quote is from the simplified version. The normal study version does not say "a part of our collection of Bible truths" , but "our own treasure store".)        
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