Jump to content

The Librarian

JW OPPOSERS GROUPS

Topic Summary

Created

Last Reply

Replies

Views

The Librarian -
Space Merchant -
387
8200

Top Posters


Recommended Posts

This is why, when something new is found that can educate the public just like how “Jesus” looked like, it would be disingenuous for a witness to speculate what Jesus really looked like.

The Early church fathers and early paintings depict Jesus as white, blonde hair, blue-eyed individual. Now science is saying Jesus was a dark, brown hair, brown eyed individual. Who is correct?

We know where Jesus was conceived, the people in that community; were lighter skin than your average Middle Eastern. The Iraq Jew is lighter in complexion by comparison.

To suggest, one appearance is wrong, can be applied to those that falsely follow the same determination of suggesting earlier Christians should know better.

I wonder how those that criticize the Org. Before they joined the Org didn’t imagine Jesus looking just like he has been depicted for centuries.

jesus.png

At what point can modern investigations conclude, all ancient portraits are wrong by today’s standard for the ancients, to have corrected their works back then?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

so why expect more from the JW artist who drew the picture?

Artists are people who need inspiration for their works. In the absence of divine inspiration, the inspiration of this worldly world is also good, enough for making pictures. :))

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

Does this mean Jesus was wrong to commission the apostles? Does this mean Jesus was wrong to appoint the 70 men? Do you “reject” the words in scripture about leaders? Did God’s commission stop just because you don’t like a certain group? Are other Christians following the letter of Christ instructions and God’s commands?

In answering on this and many more, we can use words; Yes, No, I don't know, You don't now, I am right, You are wrong .... but "the best" answers are on JW official  web sites ................

3 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

I hope you understand the difference between the Bible Students and JW's.

........ :))) from Bible Students era till now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Arauna said:

Ah- 1944.  The world was a different place then.

 

19 hours ago, Arauna said:

Again, a case of taking something out of historical context and applying 21st century values retroactively. 

I understand what you are saying, but the world will always be a different place in retrospect. 100 years from now we will be saying the same thing about the world today. I'm not being critical of the org, I would just like to point out that what we think are facts today, in retrospect may not be fact at all. I don't agree with JTR on many things, but he has a point when he says things will be as they are supposed to be regardless of what we say they will be. Honestly, most of the time it's just guess work, and we do well not too take ourselves to seriously over it.  As long as we understand clear admonition such as: "Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace" (2 Peter 3:14)  I don't think we should be overly concerned about whether the interpretation of the generation is correct or not,  or the meaning of the Locusts, or the hailstones, or ancient worthies etc. Everything will happen on time and according to Jehovah's will. We can just speculate.

19 hours ago, Arauna said:

so why expect more from the JW artist who drew the picture?

Well it wasn't really up to the artist. It was up to Br. Rutherford, he called the shots at the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Anna said:

It was up to Br. Rutherford, he called the shots at the time.

They all had the same frame of mind - that is why I mentioned the overall racist frame of mind of everyone in USA.  I do not think br Rutherford said to the artist he must draw a light guy.... he just did it automatically and it was approved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Anna said:

I don't agree with JTR on many things, but he has a point when he says things will be as they are supposed to be regardless of what we say they will be. Honestly, most of the time it's just guess work, and we do well not to take ourselves to seriously over it. 

Years ago, I sent my family to an assembly somewhere,  and they were gone four days (which cost me about $600) and when they came back they said I REALLY REALLY should have gone with them

They were excited, and I asked them what they learned that was so great (that took 4 days, and $600 to learn ... but I didn't say that out loud ...).

They said that that they learned that what we USED to believe about Nebuchadnezzer's Image in the book of Daniel was all wrong, and the TOES, which used to mean something completely different ... NOW mean something NEW that is completely different.  They were as excited as a puppy with a pork chop about this.

Somehow, I was less than enthused, and visualized six, one hundred dollar bills with wings, flying South for the winter, never to be seen again.

I suspect that revelation could have been put on one side of a post card, and still would not be worth the postage.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I do not think br Rutherford said to the artist he must draw a light guy.... he just did it automatically and it was approved.

I do not think Rutherford said you must draw a light guy either, but as you say, he approved it 🙂

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Similar Content

    • By Jack Ryan
      Amber Scorah is author of the memoir Leaving the Witness. Growing up in the Jehovah's Witness faith, Scorah moved to mainland China to become an underground missionary. In China, she came to question these beliefs and left the religion. Shunned by family and friends as an apostate, Scorah was alone in Shanghai and thrown into a world she had only known from the periphery, with no education or support system. After growing up in the Jehovah's Witness faith, Amber learned Mandarin Chinese and moved to Mainland China to become an underground missionary. In China, encountering a new culture and making friends outside the faith for the first time, Amber came to question the beliefs she had been taught from childhood and ended up leaving the religion. Amber later moved to New York City, where she began a new life. Several years later, her three-month old son died on his first day in childcare. After this tragedy, Amber became a parental leave advocate. Combining forces with a Republican mother, their bipartisan efforts brought the cause of parental leave to the forefront of the 2016 presidential campaign. She was named one of the 100 most influential people in Brooklyn culture by Brooklyn Magazine. Her writing has appeared in The New York Times, The Believer, The Boston Globe, The Cut, The Globe and Mail and USA Today
    • By Jack Ryan
      The Dutch Parliament has accepted a motion in which is called on the Dutch government to ensure proper care and guidance for apostates.
      I wonder how the Dutch governement is going to act on this motion.
      MOTION BY THE MEMBER OF KOOTEN-ARISSEN
      Proposed 26 September 2019
      The Chamber,
      having heard the deliberations,
      noting that people from orthodox religious communities may encounter a great deal of resistance from their environment if they choose to abandon certain precepts or their faith;
      whereas feelings of loneliness, exclusion and sadness for what is lost can cause a grieving process that people need help with;
      whereas feelings of loneliness, exclusion and sorrow for what has been lost can cause a process of mourning, which people need help with;
      calls on the government to ensure proper care and guidance of apostates, and moves on to the order of the day.
      Van Kooten-Arissen
    • By Witness
      Wt. 11/7/15 - “HOW DO FALSE TEACHERS OPERATE? THEIR METHODS REVEAL A CUNNING SPIRIT. APOSTATES “QUIETLY BRING IN” CORRUPTIVE IDEAS. LIKE SMUGGLERS, THEY OPERATE IN A CLANDESTINE MANNER, SUBTLY INTRODUCING APOSTATE VIEWS”.
      It begins benignly, truthfully, like this:
      Wt. 1882, pgs 71-71 – “BEWARE OF ‘ORGANIZATION’. It is wholly unnecessary. The Bible rules will be the only rules you will need. DO NOT SEEK TO BIND OTHERS’ CONSCIENCES, AND DO NOT PERMIT OTHERS TO BIND YOURS. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God’s Word today, and so continue growing in grace and knowledge and love day by day”.
      And escalates into this:
      Wt. 11/15/81 “Make haste to IDENTIFY the visible theocratic ORGANIZATION of God that represents his king, Jesus Christ. IT IS ESSENTIAL FOR LIFE. Doing so, be complete in accepting its every aspect”.
      Wt. 13/11/15 –“ At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from JEHOVAH’S ORGANIZATION may not appear practical from a human standpoint. ALL OF US MUST BE READY TO OBEY any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.”
      Rev 16:13,14:
      “And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth, (the anointed ones Rev 1:5) and of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.”
      We are aware that a fertilized egg of a frog is laid in a mass under water. In a few days, a tadpole is formed, and eventually, the metamorphosis is complete, as a mature frog has developed. Even the diet during this process changes from grasses to meat.
      In the Watchtower, what begins as a scriptural truth, becomes a full-fledged lie, sourced in Satan’s “sea”, that consumes the individual who submits his mind and heart to it. Each beginning of a lie is part of many, that the Watchtower has ‘morphed’ over the years. These teachings have become unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. Rev 13:1,2 (Prov 14:25) 
       
      Again, from the WT 11/7/15:
      “AND JUST AS A CLEVER FORGER TRIES TO PASS PHONY DOCUMENTS, SO APOSTATES USE ‘COUNTERFEIT WORDS’, OR FALSE ARGUMENTS, TRYING TO PASS THEIR FABRICATED VIEWS AS IF THEY WERE TRUE.” 
      Here's an example of a fabricated view:
      Wt. 14/1/15 - “How did Jehovah become King in 1914, and what were some of the Kingdom’s early accomplishments? The subsequent famines, earthquakes, and pestilences as well as the fulfillment of other Bible prophecies proved CONCLUSIVELY that Jesus Christ had begun to rule in heaven as King of God’s Kingdom in 1914. By enthroning his Son as the Messianic King, Jehovah had, indeed, become King in a new sense!” 
      The SYMBOLIC famines, earthquakes, pestilences are the labor pains that PRECEDE the birth of God’s Kingdom. This is the natural order of birth. Luke 21:8,9; Mark 13:8; Ezek 22:28  
       “Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your ]composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a MESSAGE OR A LETTER AS IF FROM US, TO THE EFFECT THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD HAS COME. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.” 2 Thess 2:1-4
      Watchtower continues: 
      “THEY SPREAD 'DECEPTIVE TEACHINGS,' 'TWISTING'...THE SCRIPTURES TO FIT THEIR OWN IDEAS. (2 Pet. 2:1, 3, 13; 3:16)” 
      Twisting the scriptures, and creating new doctrine such as:
      Wt 02/8/1 - “Representing the royal priesthood are appointed elders, who serve in positions of responsibility in congregations of Jehovah’s people around the earth. These men deserve our respect and wholehearted support, whether they are of the anointed or not. Why? Because, through his holy spirit, Jehovah has appointed the older men to their positions. Hebrews 13:7,17" 
      JWs, go back to the scriptures to find the truth:
      Num 18:7 - “But you and your sons will carry out your priestly responsibilities for everything concerning the altar and for what is inside the veil, and you will do that work. I am giving you the work of the priesthood as a gift, BUT AN UNAUTHORIZED PERSON WHO COMES NEAR THE SANCTUARY WILL BE PUT TO DEATH."
       Who are the Temple sanctuary?  1 Cor 3:16,17; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 2Chron.13:9; Ezek 22:26;Eze.44:6,7,8,9; 2Thess.2:4; Dan.11:31; Matt.24:15; Rev 11:1,2
      “CLEARLY, APOSTATES DO NOT HAVE OUR BEST INTERESTS AT HEART. FOLLOWING THEM WOULD DIVERT US FROM THE ROAD THAT LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE”. 
      Shepherd the Flock book, page 65 (the previous version) – 
      “Apostasy is a standing away from true worship, a falling away, defection, rebellion.”
      It includes: 
      “Deliberately spreading teachings contrary to bible truth…
      AS TAUGHT BY JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES”
       
       
      Pearl Doxsey, 4womaninthewilderness blogspot
      “The Kingdom—1914?”
      “The Sign of the End”
       
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      Here is the quote from Jehovah's Witnesses calling former members "mentally diseased"

      https://www.jw.borg/en/publications/magazines/ws20110715/Will-You-Pay-Attention-to-Jehovahs-Clear-Warnings/#?insight[search_id]=11735035-7186-4c2a-bcfd-283925a24106&insight[search_result_index]=0
       
      Where in the scripture does it say that apostates are mentally diseased? I guess that's just their translation.
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      The invasion of the mentally ill professional apostates is repeated again, at a Kingdom Hall in full meeting. Once the prayer is over, an invader gets on the stage and the ushers are forced to lower it. But among the attendees there are more apostates, including the one who is recording the video. They almost have to be forcibly evicted because they are reluctant to leave  while criticizing the organization. They gather at the door while the brothers prevent them from entering again and call the police. The arrival of the police causes some to run away, and the agent takes data from those who bother a private meeting. Let's take note of the scene that will surely be repeated in many  countries.
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      I see more and more stories about this woman Barbara Anderson
      What exactly did she do at Bethel? Does she have an interesting story?
    • By Jack Ryan
      bh chap. 11 pp. 110-112 pars. 12-15 - Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever....student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. What should the teacher do?....suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem...he knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class....consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do............he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case.
  • Forum Statistics

    61,683
    Total Topics
    114,550
    Total Posts
  • Member Statistics

    16,510
    Total Members
    1,592
    Most Online
    Rosjes128
    Newest Member
    Rosjes128
    Joined




  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Are you honest? I have just seen you bashing JWs, never acknowledging anything good about them.   You have given me labels many times in your so-called bias - search for something which can only be called truth if it confirms to your personal viewpoint.  How unrealistic this expectation in a wicked world...... Do you believe the bible?   Yes or No ?   God himself chose king Saul for his humility and then saul turned aside and became unapproved.... to the extent that he visited the witch if Endor calling up the dead.   Jesus chose Jude himself after praying with holy spirit and jude later became  wicked (practicing theft, deceit) and eventually betrayed him.....  We can try to obtain a clean congregation but there will always be individuals who can turn wicked and create problems until someone speaks up and evidence is obtained.   And if the government cannot get a conviction ?  Then we only have rumours to go on..... which is unloving if there is no proof.  The bible itself says we must not defame others.  It is also a grave offence.  This is why it is hard to obtain perfection. Do we err on the side of obtaining justice or mercy...... because both these attributes are important.
    • We had a joke in SA - the light green people must please sit in the back of the bus...... In South Africa we use the term 'coloured' in different way than USA.   Historically we had a group of people (since inception of SA 370 years ago) who were a mix between black and white and they spoke the European language : Dutch.  So they were officially not black and not white.  To the whites they were never white enough and for the black people not black enough. 
    • Although the "me too" movement has brought the plight  of individuals to the fore I think it is a temporary phenomena.  We will see a few institutions sued for money due to past  negligence (as JWs) to provide a public token of supposed caring and a "show" of justice but the  true and horrific extent of child trafficking and sex abuse will not be exposed.  It is a world- wide network which, I suspect, brings in profits comparable to, or more than drugs,  and is active also amongst the depraved elite, including CIA, judges, princes etc. It will escalate as young children are now groomed by the new UN school curriculim. Child sex abuse is covered up by law enforcement and government institutions we trust because rich and important people are involved.  Here is another general  comment: satan's world will soon not be hidden any longer. It will no longer operate in the shadows. Seriously wicked things will go on in full view of the public as this way of thinking infiltrates all aspects if thinking in society..... like LGBT it will be tolerated.  Mankind is sinking lower and lower in a depraved mental state.
    • OCD is in and of itself not NECESSARILY a bad thing. ...and not NECESSARILY a disorder. It just seems that way to other people who have to endure it .... when they are not interested in that particular application.
    • One gets a sense of who really is here to get closer to the truth of a matter (within reason)  and who just wants to destroy - like Satan.  Satan: always wants to win by destroying all truth and reasonableness and uses deceit.   I do see a general attitude here at times. Sorry if it hurts feelings but there are people here whom I have called out as having OCD because I already know what their answer will be. They revert back to same old answers and behaviour expecting different results. I guess I am predictable too.  I hate deceit......  People are pretty disrespectful these days..... burn the bible, call jesus names... I think we will see very bad behaviour in future towards all who believe in christ. 
    • True, however, testing the spirit does not include drawing one's own conclusions outside scripture. I have not found an insistence where the Watchtower has gone beyond what is written. Do they try to simplify certain things, yes they do. That doesn’t mean they are stepping away from the context. Another thing is with the comparison made. The GB are following the true spirit of God like the apostles. Therefore, they have NOT taken the position of the Jerusalem counsel. If you have, then you sit in Moses seat. Matthew 23:2 If the passion is to correct, as God corrected his people, Then I would suspect there is a resemblance to be equal to Christ as the Pope seems to indicate. The GB do not hold themselves in that high regard as to think, they can question God's motives for humanity. I would recommend studying the issue further. There are areas that haven’t been included with many presentations here. Since you claim the Watchtower is misrepresenting an issue that has become an obstacle to your personal faith, then I would make light of JTR and TTH comments about contacting the Watchtower directly. Feeding an assumption only emboldens the God of this world, no one else. Correct. There is only one way to view scripture. Anyone deviating from that is causing personal harm to the spirit of others. It doesn’t matter if those individuals hate the Watchtower, it’s by their own spoken words and actions of clear and concise misinterpretation of scripture, and misapplication of the Watchtower literature where they fail to see the difference. Removing themselves from the context of scripture to argue with the strength of hate and discourse is the sole definition of scripture when Christ clearly stated not to and to stay away from. Those are the dangers when we engage in an open forum. We like to think it is to discuss issues. However, the ever present danger will always be, the influence of the devil. It is one thing to defend the truth, but quite another thing to defend the truth when one’s heart is conflicted. Merely following that conduct disqualifies anyone from stating they are Christian. That is the kind of Christian Jesus spoke of as a danger. The confusion would lie with how the public perceives the Watchtower under the direction of the bible Student association. The word “association” should give anyone, pause to rethink, Russell and Rutherford belonged to the International Bible Student Association. A reason, Rutherford dismissed the edger pyramid scheme straight up. Russell, used it as a comparison, nothing more. Another thing that witnesses should consider, those works were made by not allowing Christendom’s view of scripture. Therefore, Russell essentially started from scratch. There are far more reasons why those dates were accepted. Mainly, by events of that time. Bible Students still believe, the Jewish nation has a pivotal role in the last days. According to Christ everyone became relative in the last days including the Jews. They are not the sole reason for the last days as Christendom exerts. Remember, even the most conservative view which is Bishop Ussher, his calculation referenced 586BC as the 3rd instance of judgment by Nebuchadnezzar. The third, not the first nor the second as historians and scholars claim, but the third. This is why history itself is flawed, since they continue to insist, there were only 2 campaigns against Judea and Jerusalem. Mainly 597-587BC. I will not beat on the bush with this one. I am confident we both know what limitations are imposed and previous actions taken.  
  • Popular Now

  • Recently Browsing

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Who's Online (See full list)

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.