WT Society and Religious Education

[Arauna]

9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

the Workbook. 

I came in the truth 45 years ago while a young student in Africa (lived there for 45 years). I have worked and lived also in USA (15 years), England, Sweden and now retired in Republic of Georgia. I worked as a reporter and after that in PR for several companies.

I find most Americans (not all) myopic and inward looking and entitled. What I learnt in my travels is that 'cultures' give people certain values that they cling to - which can make them difficult and unadaptable.  And this is also true of people in the truth. Personality traits and values which are so ingrained that if the person is not prepared to work on it themself. Hence, they can make it almost impossible for Jehovah to work with them or for them to fit in. So some people - as a result of this, think the elders and GB are controlling.

If they look closely - they will see the fault is their own.  Sweeping statements such as  "workbook " wich seem to be a mandatory way for preaching  shows an ignorance of the truth. It may come from deepseated rebellious inclination to any authority. 

I work with youth in the fieldservice all the time. While they do not have the experience to talk off the cuff - I always do.   They follow the prescribed workbook ideas perfectly and do well enough but they can also see how my life experience, additional knowledge and knowledge of other countries,  can help a person with small talk and much else .  

I watch politics all over the world and understand how large corporations work. Most of the criticism I see against GB comes from the inexperience of not understanding that the GB deal with a different set of laws in each country and had to learn the hard way that American law is not universal law....... and laws are not applied the same everywhere. 

IF I were a GB member I would also have given the same preaching suggestions to new or shy people and encourage them to stay on topic so they can at least have a positive experience.  I am here in a foreign language congregation and the repetitive field presentations in the "workbook" help those who are learning a new language. A good question to always ask is this: what would I have done if I was a GP member?   

OLDER  members who have heard the basics over the years at meetings definitely  like new ideas to meditate or "chew" on. So  I usually prepare and answer to this effect.... which usually gives young or newer ones in the congregation incentive to do more research.

Recently we had a section on cleanliness.  Why?   Well,  I had a student/study from a very poor part of the world. Her children used to smell, she had no sheets on her beds, etc. Etc. They came to meetings this way.  We had to teach her these things.   Some countries  have merely the bare necessities - they do not use sheets...or have enough water to wash. So never be arrogant and view the GB as being "prescribing", silly or harsh.  How to feed your family in a healthy way with very little money is not a subject fit for USA but very important in other parts of the world.

In Africa,  we have terrible practices which come from spiritism and superstition..... people sometimes revert back to old ideas..... so one has to speak to these persons and maybe discipline them.  Is this harshness or ensuring that Jehovahs standards are kept?  One always finds the personality type which is not easily adaptable.  If I tell a white person that they will share the paradise with a black person and they don't like it?  Who is closing the future hope of living in a paradise for themselves? The GB, the elders, me or the persons own bad attitude? 

I am a natural rebel, could never follow rules and still hate rules. Dont like it when elders use a suggestion from GB to make it into a rule.  I have also seen them being corrected for doing this...... On the other hand, I also do realize the necessity to have a mild spirit, a yielding personality - not quick to criticise those who try to serve jehovah to the best of their ability. BUT I have also worked on obtaining a strong sense if what is right or wrong morally.....so I can smell an amorral  rat or thought quickly.  

Do not be misled- I see secular attitudes on this forum all the time. Where brothers and sisters have lost the ability to see danger where it is lurking because they have become too secularised in their thinking.  After all?  Was the test of Adam and Eve not the choosing of their own morality (right and wrong which affects every situation in life) and the  rejecting of Jehovah's good and bad?    Never think you are "sophisticated" or "reasonable"  or "scholarly" when you adopt secularized opinions......and those in opposition to the bible.

The GB and elders are there to keep suchlike ones from not influencing the flock.....

[Arauna]

18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Their concern was that it would set a poor example to appoint

My brother, the analytical chemist and toxicologist (researcher), went to prison for 3 years because he refused to assist the government in secret with poison to kill dissidents.  He later did research in metallurgy, and then programmed computers  for scientific projects.

He wanted a break from programming and took a job in research with L'oreal cosmetics.  Research is his first love.  After a while the company started to pressure him to do a doctorate they needed. He resigned......  He would have loved to do it but realized it was a bad example to his sons and the congregation. 

But in my experience, I have seen the blessings that come from sacrifice done in faith.  Just remaining strong in the truth is a blessing some do not really appreciate.

University education is now a trap, especially with the new humanities.  I lost one of my best friends who did a masters in this newfangled social engineering sciences - He was like a son to me.  He is now apostate and I have not seen him for a few years.   The heartbreak of this made me realize the pitfalls of higher education anew.

 

[Arauna]

22 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But no, GB = dictatorship.

I have a feeling that you would view any instruction as a dictatorship.  Do you view the instructions from Jehovah as a dictatorship? Especially on the laws he views as something we cannot compromise  on?

The EU and UN intends to bring in a surveillance system similar to China.  If this does come to fruition you will then really understand what a dictatorship truly is and not bandy the word around so easily.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@TrueTomHarley  Quote " Door-to-door preaching is not the easiest thing in the world, you know. Try it yourself and let me know what you think. "

I have Mr Harley, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. In the days when i believed all that the Watchtower would say. I didn't find the ministry at all 'frightening'. I found it to be fun though obviously having a serious theme. People in general would either listen or just say no. Always difficult to get good rounded discussions though in my opinion. I will admit to never getting beyond basic presentations and only getting invited in a very few times. 

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Yes, it is a man made rule, but based at least in part on scriptural principles. Also these are man-made rules coming from those who should be in a better position to see a wider set of statistics and experiences as they get reports from all around the world. Elders are sometimes called "epi-skopos" in Greek, meaning overseers. When we consider those who literally watch over a flock closely, we might expect them to count the number of sick, the number who die, the number eaten, the number of sheep in various categories: mottled, speckled, young, old, male, female. They also know the dangers of taking them through "Wolf Ravine" or making them wade through "Poison Water River." Similarly, if the elders working at headquarters got 100 reports of divorces right after holding an international convention in Las Vegas or Amsterdam, but no reports of divorces every time they held the same size international conventions in Helsinki or Reykjavík, I think it would be a wise man-made rule not to schedule international conventions in Las Vegas or Amsterdam. Not all traditions make the word of God void.

The WTS had a program to pay for Law School for selected individuals already working full time at Bethel or other full time service who showed promise or aptitude for such. This program was dropped, and you can be sure that there those at HQ who were counting the cost, much like those shepherd counting the survivors of "Wolf Ravine." They reverted back the previous system of using volunteers who had finished Law School before becoming Witnesses.

Age 17.

But all scores that count are measured at the end of Junior year, not Senior year of American High School. Therefore it requires a conscious choice to pick the maximum number of advanced placement classes which could result in the best choices and scholarships and would therefore be a path chosen by age 15 or 16 at the latest.

Local papers print up the bio given by a Guidance Counselor office of each high school reporting on the scores of their "Valedictorians" and those who are accepted by certain colleges.

Asked and answered in a prior post.

So far, I believe well more than half of the GB says.   

I believe that since WE, if we hope to be noble-minded individuals, are responsible to search the Scriptures and see whether these things are so, then this must be WE not only THEM. And there are many ways to tell someone about the Kingdom hope, the paradise, the resurrection, God's purpose, God's government, and why it's got to be a sight better than what we are putting up with now. Sometimes the CLAM workbook is spot on, sometimes it doesn't fit my style at all.

@JW Insider Thank you for your patience and great response. 

The American way seems far different to the British way, in my opinion anyway., and it seems to reflect within the Org and on this forum. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@Arauna  Quote " I find most Americans (not all) myopic and inward looking and entitled "

Myopic is an adjective meaning shortsighted in every sense. Whether you need glasses or a new attitude, if you can't see the forest for the trees, you're myopic.

 

Governing Body = Americans = myopic.  7 of the 8 are American.

 

You have travelled the world.  Quote "What I learnt in my travels is that 'cultures' give people certain values that they cling to " 

 

So it may be that the GB 'cling to a culture and certain values' of America. 

 

Why then do they not have a Governing Body with members from many countries ?  That way they could understand 'cultures' and 'certain values' of different peoples. I would presume there are many Anointed ones in many different countries that are equal in spirituality to the GB. Unfortunately the GB do not seem to think so, as they seem to tell the Anointed not to contact each other. 

 

You say about yourself "I am a natural rebel, could never follow rules and still hate rules." 

 

You say about me "I have a feeling that you would view any instruction as a dictatorship."  

 

I find this very amusing   I also find your constant mentioning of 'morality' very funny, considering the state of the JW Org regarding child sexual abuse earth wide. 

 

Quote "Do you view the instructions from Jehovah as a dictatorship? Especially on the laws he views as something we cannot compromise  on? "    Tell that to the GB lawyers in their court cases. 

 

James 1 v 27  The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation,i and to keep oneself without spot from the world.

Judge the GB and the JW Org on that scripture not as @Anna does , by comparing it to the Pope and the Catholic church.

 

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

Republic of Georgia

I love to listen some folk საქართველო songs. Very long ago i heard one on radio before going to work in early morning, and i can't find it never again. Title was, if i remembered well, Don't rustle, privet. (Ne šumi kalino - in Croatian) 

Perhaps you know it, Arauna ?

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Why then do they not have a Governing Body with members from many countries ? 

Perhaps that sound too democratic :))) Non-Aligned Movement

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

 

 

 

On 11/13/2019 at 1:28 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

 ...... A sister who has been in full-time service for over 15 years says: “As a baptized Witness, I had read and heard about the dangers of pursuing university education ............ What effect did higher education have on this sister’s thinking? She answers: “I am ashamed to admit that the education I pursued taught me to be critical of others, especially my brothers and sisters, to expect too much of them, and to isolate myself from them -   Watchtower 2019 Jun pp.6-7

That reminds me of people who claimed they used to play Beatle's records backwards ( I don't even know how you could do that ...) , and claimed you could hear voices saying "Serve Satan" or some such nonsense.

If they did ... and could hear that, I strongly suspect they had OTHER serious mental problems, and the record was not the real problem.

 

 

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

32 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Beatle's records backwards

I have heard (or read about it in some WT article, not sure)  that too in first part of 1980'...... and repeated about this "danger stuff" to some young JW's in Czechoslovakia  in 1985.  :)))

[Arauna]

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

this

I think the christendom churches mentioned this a lot.  Some elder could have mentioned it in  a talk if he quoted secular magazines..... but I do not recall hearing of this in WT magazines.

[TrueTomHarley]

On 11/16/2019 at 1:52 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

That reminds me of people who claimed they used to play Beatle's records backwards ( I don't even know how you could do that ...) , and claimed you could hear voices saying "Serve Satan" or some such nonsense.

You do it by putting the turntable in neutral and spinning it backwards with your finger. When you do, you hear repeatedly and very distinctly, “Turn me on, dead man.” (Revolution #9) When you play “Strawberry Fields Forever” forward, you hear at the very end, “I buried Paul.”

The rumor was that Paul, of the wildly popular only-game-in-town Beatles, had died some years ago and that the other three had covered it up, hiring a look-alike to take his place. This look-alike was referred to as “Billy Shears” from the Sgt Pepper’s album, who worried “what would you do if I sang out of tune?” but took solace that he would “get by with a little help from his friends.”

The Beatles cross the street “Abbey Road” in single file on the cover of the album of that name. John leads, dressed in white—he is the preacher. Ringo is next, in black—he is the undertaker. Paul is third—barefoot as a corpse would be, cigarette in hand, though he supposedly quit them years ago—he is the dead man. George is fourth, dressed in workman’s clothes—he is the ditchdigger. The license plate of the VW just over the curb is “28 IF,” the age Paul would be IF he was still alive. The first song of that album, “Come together,” revolves around sounds that could best be characterized as a shovel piling on dirt, as in a burial. References abound to going on without Paul: “He says, ‘one and one and one is three,’ Hold on to his armchair, you can feel his disease.”

The Sgt Pepper’s album cover features the old Beatles looking down upon the new Beatles, renamed Sgt Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band. The scene is of a burial—“Beatles” is spelled out in floral arrangement, and a host of other famous, though dead, people—Albert Einstein, Mae West, Edgar Allen Poe, about thirty in all—join the old Beatles in looking on.

This is just for starters. Supposedly, the three surviving Beatles had planned this for years, hiding clues in their records.

Why do I know this in such detail? I was a college student at the time. When this story broke, campus life came to a standstill. Kids were glued to campus radio, which cancelled all other programming to run with this 24/7. There was radio tie-in with major schools, which were also at standstills as regards academics activity. Students would call in with the latest theorizing. There were many in our school that cut classes so as not to miss a word. My roommate urged me (unsuccessfully) to install a reverse gear in my record player so as to play all Beatles songs backwards in search of additional clues. Had it been feasible, I probably would have done it.

Outlandish rumors were bandied about and accepted as gospel. The feed station—from UCLA, perhaps—featured unending call-ins and interviews of the latest “research.” On the back  cover of the Sgt Pepper’s album, one of the four—Paul’s replacement, I think—is conducting the band. Superimposed on the cover are the lyrics to the songs within. By this means, “Paul’s” finger points to the words from “She’s Leaving Home,” “Wednesday morning at five o’clock.” If you called a certain number—also listed in the album somewhere, I think—you found yourself connected to hell. I think that if you pressed the matter, you risked losing your soul. Don’t ever let anyone tell you that they are “young adults” in college. They are big children, reveling in the [then] newfound freedoms of drugs and sex, free of parental supervision,  hopefully on their way to becoming adults.

This Beatles’ plot was  the dominating concern of students then and it lasted for days on end.

The weekend came. Maybe it was even some holiday. I went home, about 250 miles away. NOBODY KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS! On campus, NOBODY KNEW ANYTHING ELSE! I couldn’t believe how oblivious the out-of-touch farts were to the greatest story of our time! Finally, after a day or two, there was a brief snippet at the end of the “World News Report” and it was in the form of a scolding. Walter Chronkite or his like ran a line of two, briefly acknowledged that the Beatles—those precocious kids—were having a laugh on the world, but what a sick laugh it was.

I wrote this up long ago. It does me good to recall it. Sure—I have nothing else to do with my time:

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2010/01/hurry-gwen-theyre-killing-people.html

[JW Insider]

On 11/16/2019 at 2:29 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

I have heard (or read about it in some WT article, not sure)  that too in first part of 1980'

Closest thing I remember to this idea was here:

*** w95 1/1 p. 8 par. 16 Triumphing Over Satan and His Works ***
16 This appears to be especially necessary today in view of the bizarre music with which Satan is drenching this world. In some cases there is a direct connection to Satanism. A report from the San Diego County (U.S.A.) sheriff’s office stated: “We had a concert down here where the band had 15,000 kids chanting ‘Natas’—that is, Satan spelled backwards.”