What were Jesus’ instructions regarding shunning wrongdoers (disfellowshipping)?

[Guest Nicole]

What were Jesus’ instructions regarding shunning wrongdoers (disfellowshipping)?

[Nnaemeka]

No, while on earth Jesus did not explicitly give such instructions. It was apostle Paul that gave it in 1 Corinthians 5:13 that says:

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13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

But Paul was an instrument used by Jesus for a special purpose. So whatever direction comes from Paul could be said to be coming from Jesus as these verses in Acts 26:16 makes clear.

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16 But rise and stand on your feet. This is why I have appeared to you, to choose you as a servant and a witness both of things you have seen and things I will make you see respecting me. 

You can read the context to get the sense that Jesus was using Paul for a special reason.

[Evacuated]

*** Insight-1 pp. 787-788 Expelling ***
During the time of his earthly ministry, Jesus gave instructions as to the procedure to follow if a serious sin was committed against a person and yet the sin was of such a nature that, if properly settled, it did not need to involve the Jewish congregation. (Mt 18:15-17) He encouraged earnest effort to help the wrongdoer, while also safeguarding that congregation against persistent sinners. The only congregation of God in existence then was the congregation of Israel. ‘Speaking to the congregation’ did not mean that the entire nation or even all the Jews in a given community sat in judgment on the offender. There were older men of the Jews that were charged with this responsibility. (Mt 5:22) Offenders who refused to listen even to these responsible ones were to be viewed “just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector,” association with whom was shunned by the Jews.—Compare Ac 10:28.
 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

During the time of Jesus' earthly ministry,  disputes and criminal charges were handled in the CITY GATES, so that everyone could see what was going on... and everyone could stand up and make themselves heard by everyone if they had anything to add.  This kept the witnesses honest, as they had no idea who MIGHT stand up and call them a liar, and be able to prove it ... and even MORE importantly, it kept the Judges honest, as if they were stupid, on the take, or railroading someone, it was obvious to all .... and they knew the Jews in the audience could throw rocks at them as well.

Evildoers were ordered to make reparations, or executed.  Juvenile delinquents were counseled and punished with hard labor, and if ineffective, they were stoned to death, and the parents had to throw the first stones. Prisons and jails did not exist, although chains did.

In the Jewish system, for thousands of years, this system worked .... and I have NEVER heard about institutionalized "shunning".  Individual people can "shun" whoever they want ...  this has always been an individual option.

Jesus even talked to and ATE WITH men of the nations, tax collectors and others the Pharisees shunned and looked down on.

If you want to emulate Jesus ... act courteously with ALL people ...

If you want to emulate the Pharisees,  first check the list, then shun, Shun SHUN yourself into an orgasm of self-rightousness.

Can you imagine Jesus treating people with deliberate cruelty like WE are instructed to do?

... and to discipline ONE PERSON, we tear apart entire generations and extended families?

I cannot.

 

[Evacuated]

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

In the Jewish system, for thousands of years, this system worked .... and I have NEVER heard about institutionalized "shunning".

Ezra 7:26;  10:7-8?

[Shiwiii]

15 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

If you want to emulate Jesus ... act courteously with ALL people ...

If you want to emulate the Pharisees,  first check the list, then shun, Shun SHUN yourself into an orgasm of self-rightousness.

Nice post, Isn't this exactly what Jesus preached? tolerance to all in humility and kindness, EVEN if they strike your right cheek! 

The topic of this discussion is what did Jesus (NT) say to do.  Matt 5:39, Luke 6:29, Matt 5:40

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Eoin Joyce:

I have read the two scriptures you posted, and it says NOTHING even similar to the way disfellowshipping and shunning is done today.

When a person was "banished from the realm", he was exiled, but communications with his family was never cut off, nor were THEY threatened with banishment if they continued to talk or correspond with him (or her).  They could even go with him, if they wanted, and come back freely.

Let's say the border was a small river ... he could move to the other side of the river, and his family, extended family, and his friends could go over at will to socialize, have dinner, or help him build a house, or plant fields, etc, and NOT BE THREATENED WITH BANISHMENT.

Banishment consists of forcing a person, under pain of death, to relocate PERSONALLY out of a particular geographic area. 

It does not cruelly punish OR THREATEN TO PUNISH  innocent bystanders who might love him ... or her, with the same treatment.

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[Evacuated]

4 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

communications with his family was never cut off,

Any evidence on this?. (Not contradicting you. Just interested)

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

My informal and sporadic study of ancient cultures, and the ability to understand how power is wielded, and WHY they did the things that they did.

There is ALWAYS a reason.

As a Barbarian myself, I understand how less refined cultures think, when daily life was hard, hungry, and dangerous.

If  a person is banished and no one ever hears from him again, the assumption can be made that the authorities, whoever they are, just took him out in the woods and killed him.  Life moves on, and people one day would say "Who?, never heard of him.".

It is politically MORE IMPORTANT that his sin and punishment be a constant reminder to people not to do what he did to offend the powers-that be, to serve as a constant warning not to cross them.  That is one reason we have prisons today, and punishment for convicted felons that continues until the day they die, LONG after they are released from prison. It costs about $56,000 a year to incarcerate one prisoner for one year ... in the United States. 

It USED to be that him walking around forever stained served as a constant reminder to others not to "goofball the Feds".

Every time the indigenous people get word of how he (or she) is doing, they are reminded of the error, and the punishment and this creates a chilling effect that emphasizes two things ... ONE: That the authority is merciful, and could have killed him, but didn't, giving the illusion or reality of Justice, and TWO: They have the power and authority by virtue of that power to enforce that ... and that it CONTINUES, even many years later, as evidenced by the fact that the person banished has NOT returned, but is still alive, and COULD .. except that he would be killed.

This way the power structure is maintained.

Unlike the Society which has  become world class politicians and legal manipulators, except in Russia, even those in Solitary confinement have communications with Family and Friends, albeit on a limited basis.  Every time Mommy and the Kids go back home, after visitation, this serves as a warning to others when they hear the sad tale.

Shunning, as we do it today, threatens anyone being POLITE and CORDIAL to one being chastised .... WITH THE SAME PUNISHMENT.

IT MAY BE JUSTIFIABLE TO THE CONVICTED TO BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED .. BUT TORTURE IS ONLY TORTURE IF THE INTENT IS TO TORTURE ( .. flamethrowers on Iwo Jima come to mind...) and with disfellowshipping... AS IT IS DONE TODAY... The political INTENT is to TORTURE, by holding families hostage and under the "sword of Damocles", if they do not comply.

This is CRUEL ... this is torture of the innocent as well as the convicted .. and it is EVIL.

.

 

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[Shiwiii]

17 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Shunning, as we do it today, threatens anyone being POLITE and CORDIAL to one being chastised .... WITH THE SAME PUNISHMENT.

 

17 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

This is CRUEL ... this is torture of the innocent as well as the convicted .. and it is EVIL.

Interesting.......

I noticed you said "we" in the first statement I quoted and in the second classify this action as evil. Not trying to pry to much into your personal life, but how can one reconcile the two within your own mind? I mean to align oneself with a group that practices things that you deem evil. While I quite agree that the practice encompasses more than the intended victim and puts innocent ones in that same line of fire, but does it work? Of course it does, by the exact examples you gave above. That doesn't make it right or loving, even if it is told to the group that it is out of love.

The whole thing reminds me of the boy who wishes people into the cornfield. -----Rod Serling

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Shiwii:

I saw that episode of the Twilight Zone, and it made the same long lasting impression on me ... but I never connected it as you did.  The analogy fits like it was specifically designed for this conversation. I can still remember the entire episode ... except how it ended. I guess I will have to go to YouTube and refresh my memory with your stunning insight and see it again.

Do you remember the name of the episode title?

Although opinions are greatly varied,  I consider Jehovah's Witnesses the only group that I KNOW ABOUT that could be Jehovah's name people, otherwise I would have to be an Agnostic ... and I have seen the good they do is in fact based on rightousness, not just "good for goodness sake."

I suppose I am like the head of the VonTrapp family in the movie "Sound of Music" who loved his homeland and its people, but fled when Hitler took over, and wanted him to serve HIS interests, and not the people of Germany and Austria's Interests.

And I am well aware of the steel mailed hand in the velvet glove ... I have been pounded with it a few times myself ... because they LOVE me. 

Worse ... I have seen OTHERS pounded with "love" ... and crushed.

And I truly believe they really BELIEVE and think they do!, and what they do is kind and just.

That is where I separate the "I", the "we", and the "they"

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[Shiwiii]

 

24 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Do you remember the name of the episode title?

"Its a good life"

24 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I suppose I am like the head of the VonTrapp family in the movie "Sound of Music" who loved his homeland and its people, but fled when Hitler took over, and wanted him to serve HIS interests, and not the people of Germany and Austria's Interests.

An excellent film. 

 

24 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

And I truly believe they really BELIEVE and think they do!, and what they do is kind and just.

That is where I separate the "I", the "we", and the "they"

understood and I agree that some really feel it is loving. I just wish people could take a step back , not unlike Captain VonTrapp, and take a real good look at the situation. 

 

24 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I consider Jehovah's Witnesses the only group that I KNOW ABOUT that could be Jehovah's name people, otherwise I would have to be an Agnostic ...

Why does there have to be a group? Couldn't one just read and abide by the Bible alone without additional material? What about the Ethiopian eunuch? He wasn't part of Phillip's group after the encounter and we are left to believe that that eunuch was just fine. Not saying that one should not fellowship, but why does it have to be so black and white?

I do not feel that life and our relationship with God is black and white. What I mean here is that what we consider black or wrong, probably is, but is also a tool used by God to show us stubborn people the error of our ways. Look at all of the failures of the people within the Bible. Peter, even after believing, got it wrong and was corrected. Couldn't this also be an example for us? Not everything we do is right or wrong, so why put it in such a box that one must be "loved" into conformity?