JWs sue Norwegian government

[George88]

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The obligation to report the hours and pieces of literature that JWs were supposed to take in order to prove and show their "spirituality" to the elders and other members of the WTJWorg has no basis in the Bible. It took WTJWorg 100 years to change this doctrine. It's the same with beards.

Well please, about whose Bible and about whose interpretations are we talking about?

Are we now changing the subject to something unrelated to interpreting scripture from the NWT? Have you had a chance to read the "Queen James Version," which was created with a focus on the LGBTQ community?

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Has the influence of the ex-JW population led to a change in WTJWorg theology?

"Watchtower's commitment to capturing the essence" ??.... This is humorous. 

Is our focus on the impact of ex-witnesses distorting and exaggerating the truth on governments? A grasp of the true meaning of words might just tickle your funny bone. lol!

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

WTJWorg literature answers this type of question as well. Are you really unfamiliar with that?

Could you provide me with an instance in which the Watchtower acknowledges points made by ex-witnesses while remaining faithful to the official teachings of the organization, without distorting its literature? 

I understand the reasons behind the Watchtower's pursuit of legal fees from the anti-witness government of Norway. However, the authenticity of the claims made by the poster in "X" is yet to be determined, as they could either be factual or, as usual, exaggerated.

[Srecko Sostar]

14 hours ago, George88 said:

Are we now changing the subject to something unrelated to interpreting scripture from the NWT?

Not. We only used the new illustration. Mr. lawyer who is apparently the head of the legal team representing WTJWorg (in the photo 3rd person on the right) made the claim that only the JW organization is authorized to interpret the content of its publications that were presented in court by the defense attorney of the Norwegian state.
So we know two things; 1. GB considers itself the only one authorized to interpret the Bible and 2. GB is the only one who can correctly explain the meaning of its own interpretations.
Consequently, this would mean that no one in this world has the right to think and say that WTJWorg's interpretations are wrong. That's nonsense.

 

[George88]

18 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Mr. lawyer who is apparently the head of the legal team representing WTJWorg (in the photo 3rd person on the right) made the claim that only the JW organization is authorized to interpret the content of its publications that were presented in court by the defense attorney of the Norwegian state.

Who possesses the superior ability to accurately interpret the publications of the Watchtower? The role of the courts and former witnesses is quite intriguing, don't you think? lol!

In a court setting, a member of the GB previously highlighted the consequences of individuals without scriptural knowledge attempting to interpret it. This resonates with my view, as secular courts generally show no interest in discussing scripture, which ultimately brings us to the challenge faced by Norway.

25 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

So we know two things; 1. GB considers itself the only one authorized to interpret the Bible and 2. GB is the only one who can correctly explain the meaning of its own interpretations.
Consequently, this would mean that no one in this world has the right to think and say that WTJWorg's interpretations are wrong. That's nonsense.

 

However, both of these claims are completely unfounded, and nonsensical. Demonstrate how a government advocating for LGBTQ+ rights can accurately interpret religious texts. What about the Church of Norway? Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, and those who get subsidies. Norway didn't change its laws to exclude religions they approve of. How is that not a form of discrimination, and ultimately, persecution?

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, George88 said:

Who possesses the superior ability to accurately interpret the publications of the Watchtower?

This is how I could answer the matter.
GB claims to be the "guardian of the doctrine" and the only one who correctly interprets the Bible.
The lawyer claims that only GB can correctly interpret WTJWorg's publications.

First thing. If anyone could agree that GB is the only one who can relevantly explain what is the meaning of what is written in the WTJWorg editions, because at the end of the day, all the text within 140+ years is nothing but the product and imagination of the people at WTJWorg. So it can be said that they are, also, the intellectual owners of what was written in WTJWorg publications. Of course, a bunch of theology has long since been discarded by themselves, so that speaks volumes for the intellectual and spiritual value of a large number of WTJWorg publications.
 
Another thing, GB has no authority to interpret the Bible because they are not the ones who wrote the Bible.

According to the previously presented logic, only God has the right to interpret his Word aka the Bible. "Do Not Interpretations Belong to God?", Gen 40:8.

I think we have clearly rounded up the result, that is, GB is not authorized to interpret the Bible. And if GB still wants to explain the meaning of the biblical text, it only means that their interpretation is not binding on anyone.

[George88]

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

GB claims to be the "guardian of the doctrine" and the only one who correctly interprets the Bible.
The lawyer claims that only GB can correctly interpret WTJWorg's publications.

For the Watchtower, this would be correct. Is it necessary for the Watchtower to be the sole protector of God's inspired word and the truth of Christ? The responsibility lies with the leaders of each Christian sect who assert themselves to be aligned with God but fail to adhere to His teachings.

Therefore, you have invalidated your criticism.

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

First thing. If anyone could agree that GB is the only one who can relevantly explain what is the meaning of what is written in the WTJWorg editions, because at the end of the day, all the text within 140+ years is nothing but the product and imagination of the people at WTJWorg. So it can be said that they are, also, the intellectual owners of what was written in WTJWorg publications. Of course, a bunch of theology has long since been discarded by themselves, so that speaks volumes for the intellectual and spiritual value of a large number of WTJWorg publications.

If this were to be true, it would mean that "all" Christian sects and their publications would lose their validity. Are you suggesting that the Watchtower is the sole publisher of spiritual content?

Do you think that Christian sects, who openly express their support for gay rights and endorse acts of violence through war, are still considered to have God's approval?

You continue to invalidate your criticism with nonsensical claims.

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Another thing, GB has no authority to interpret the Bible because they are not the ones who wrote the Bible.

In a previous post, you appeared uncertain about certain matters. I'm glad that you have found clarity. However, does having a particular opinion mean that no one else has the right to interpret scripture? Are you suggesting that only God has that authority, and he can't delegate it to someone on earth? Are you superior to God to make such a nonsensical claim?

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

According to the previously presented logic, only God has the right to interpret his Word aka the Bible. "Do Not Interpretations Belong to God?", Gen 40:8.

You just invalidated your previous statement. Didn't God give Joseph the ability to interpret the pharaoh's dream? If the members of spiritual Israel truly desire to obey God's commands, why would it be impossible for God Himself to interpret scripture in a way that they can fully grasp and implement in their daily lives, by using an earthly instrument such as Joseph?

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I think we have clearly rounded up the result, that is, GB is not authorized to interpret the Bible. And if GB still wants to explain the meaning of the biblical text, it only means that their interpretation is not binding on anyone.

Your criticism has caused you to lose all comprehension of God and scripture.

[Srecko Sostar]

10 hours ago, George88 said:

Are you suggesting that the Watchtower is the sole publisher of spiritual content?

No.

10 hours ago, George88 said:

Do you think that Christian sects, who openly express their support for gay rights and endorse acts of violence through war, are still considered to have God's approval?

No.

10 hours ago, George88 said:

Are you suggesting that only God has that authority, and he can't delegate it to someone on earth?

What does the "delegation" process look like?
When did it start?
Who were the first people whom God "delegated" to interpret his Word?

10 hours ago, George88 said:

Didn't God give Joseph the ability to interpret the pharaoh's dream?

Joseph did not found/establish a religion like WTJWorg did. I don't recall any record of him imposing his interpretations on other people.

 

[George88]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What does the "delegation" process look like?
When did it start?
Who were the first people whom God "delegated" to interpret his Word?

The journey began with the first humans, who fell into sin. Since then, God has been calling upon his creation to embrace their imperfections, using his chosen messengers, prophets, angels, and earthly spokesmen. Among them, Jesus stands as the most remarkable spokesman. He not only conveyed God's message but also entrusted his faithful followers with the mission to carry on his legacy. Proverbs 3:13-22, Ephesians 5:6 

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Joseph did not found/establish a religion like WTJWorg did. I don't recall any record of him imposing his interpretations on other people.

Not only is this opinion unfounded, but by doing so, you've undermined your argument, as Joseph interpreted Pharaoh's dream with the help of God to Pharaoh before his court and priest. Consequently, he enforced God's will upon the pharaoh, making Joseph an invaluable asset to both the Pharaoh and the Egyptian people, as well as to God's people who, like Moses, were guided by the prophets to interpret God's law.

 

Who was responsible for instituting the worship of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Furthermore, where did the priests carry out their worship? Matthew 22:32 

 

Did Jesus not embrace the synagogues as places of worship and God's house? Why would you condemn Jesus and God for establishing places of worship? Matthew 21:13, Genesis 28:16, Exodus 23:19, 1 Kings 9:6 etc.

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, George88 said:

Did Jesus not embrace the synagogues as places of worship and God's house? Why would you condemn Jesus and God for establishing places of worship? Matthew 21:13, Genesis 28:16, Exodus 23:19, 1 Kings 9:6 etc.

So, didn't JWs reject Judaism?

[George88]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

So, didn't JWs reject Judaism?

Examine and comprehend various passages explaining why the Pharisees and anyone who advocates for God with insincere intentions would not find favor with God. Matthew, 1 John, 2 Peter, 2 Corinthians, 2 Timothy, Romans, Mark, Colossians, Galatians, Jude, Acts, Deuteronomy, lamentations, Jeremiah, Ezekial, Revelations, etc.

Do you believe that JWs are being led astray and are being encouraged to worship false Gods? The passage "testing the spirit" is meant to discern the spirit of insincere individuals, not those who faithfully uphold God's words and commands. Such as the Pharisees. Engaging in such critical thinking is a grave offense against God, as His faithful ought to discern the spirits that require examination.

If that were true, we would be forced to scrutinize Christ, the apostles, and even Paul. However, it is inconceivable that Christ, who is seen as a flawless figure, would have allowed such suspicion to overshadow their authority. This would not have been accepted even in heaven, let alone by God. Rejecting these chosen individuals, who have been appointed to guide his flock, would resemble the treatment that ancient Israel showed to the prophets.

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, George88 said:

Examine and comprehend various passages explaining why the Pharisees and anyone who advocates for God with insincere intentions would not find favor with God. Matthew, 1 John, 2 Peter, 2 Corinthians, 2 Timothy, Romans, Mark, Colossians, Galatians, Jude, Acts, Deuteronomy, lamentations, Jeremiah, Ezekial, Revelations, etc.

Do you believe that JWs are being led astray and are being encouraged to worship false Gods? The passage "testing the spirit" is meant to discern the spirit of insincere individuals, not those who faithfully uphold God's words and commands. Such as the Pharisees. Engaging in such critical thinking is a grave offense against God, as His faithful ought to discern the spirits that require examination.

If that were true, we would be forced to scrutinize Christ, the apostles, and even Paul. However, it is inconceivable that Christ, who is seen as a flawless figure, would have allowed such suspicion to overshadow their authority. This would not have been accepted even in heaven, let alone by God. Rejecting these chosen individuals, who have been appointed to guide his flock, would resemble the treatment that ancient Israel showed to the prophets.

The Jewish system of worship was established by God (the Jewish God). JWs say his name is YHVH. Thus, Judaism is at its root a correct, true religion.
People who want to become members of the JW religion must renounce their previous religion, if they were believers of any church. As far as I know, Jesus never renounced his Jewish religion.

Jesus, like you in your commentary, condemned the corruption of the religious leaders within his Jewish religion. Jesus did not despise Judaism and own belonging to Judaism, the religion/faith of his fathers, but he despised the religious hypocrisy of the people of his time.

As far as I know, Jesus kept all the customs of his Jewish faith. He never told his followers to stop keeping the "law of Moses". Moreover, he taught them to do everything the "Pharisees" told them, but not to act hypocritically like the Pharisees.
This tells us that Jesus was not advocating the rejection of Judaism as the true religion. The establishment of the "new covenant" does not exclude the very essence and truth, truthfulness of the Jewish religion.

[George88]

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The Jewish system of worship was established by God (the Jewish God). JWs say his name is YHVH. Thus, Judaism is at its root a correct, true religion.
People who want to become members of the JW religion must renounce their previous religion, if they were believers of any church. As far as I know, Jesus never renounced his Jewish religion.

Perhaps you and JWinsider could elucidate to the visitor how the figurative Jew incurred God's disfavor by failing to uphold their commitment to serve Him. In a similar vein, certain individuals among the witnesses tend to exhibit this habit of self-contradiction as they identify themselves as witnesses. Or has this intriguing piece of information somehow slipped away from our awareness?

Let's focus on the subject you initially addressed and refrain from derailing your post by implying that there is justification for Norway receiving subsidies from the Watchtower.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Jesus, like you in your commentary, condemned the corruption of the religious leaders within his Jewish religion. Jesus did not despise Judaism and own belonging to Judaism, the religion/faith of his fathers, but he despised the religious hypocrisy of the people of his time.

This is precisely why Paul encouraged Christ's followers to discern the spirits of insincere individuals, just as it should be done for individuals in the closed club. I concur. This is why genuine followers of Christ were admonished to avoid such people, particularly when they profess to be aligned with God.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

As far as I know, Jesus kept all the customs of his Jewish faith. He never told his followers to stop keeping the "law of Moses". Moreover, he taught them to do everything the "Pharisees" told them, but not to act hypocritically like the Pharisees.
This tells us that Jesus was not advocating the rejection of Judaism as the true religion. The establishment of the "new covenant" does not exclude the very essence and truth, truthfulness of the Jewish religion.

You seem to be confusing condemnation with non-compliance, which are two separate concepts.  What specific issue are you attempting to manipulate?

The new covenant is open to all who sincerely wish to follow God's commands, including natural Jews seeking repentance. However, those who do not may face the same condemnation as their forefathers, as seen in the histories of Israel and Judah.
 

The listen in Romans 11:1-10 should remind us of the remnant of Israel and the consequences for the rest.

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, George88 said:

Perhaps you and JWinsider could elucidate to the visitor how the figurative Jew incurred God's disfavor by failing to uphold their commitment to serve Him. In a similar vein, certain individuals among the witnesses tend to exhibit this habit of self-contradiction as they identify themselves as witnesses. Or has this intriguing piece of information somehow slipped away from our awareness?

Personal responsibility is not in question here. But rank and file members do not generate theology. Religious leaders (GB) are the creators of doctrines and they are the ones who change these doctrines and introduce the direction of how the members will worship God and what practices they will apply. So, we know who bears the greatest responsibility, that is, the blame for the downfall of the "herd".

7 hours ago, George88 said:

Let's focus on the subject you initially addressed and refrain from derailing your post by implying that there is justification for Norway receiving subsidies from the Watchtower.

Agree.