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Shunning, sinners and excommunication in JW congregations


Srecko Sostar
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20 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

If one looks at human conditions such as drug addiction, drunkenness, homosexuality?

Quotations from JWorg. It can be on other issue also, but this is also interesting: my comments are in red color.

"While the Bible disapproves of homosexual acts, it does not condone hatred of homosexuals or homophobia. Instead, Christians are directed to “respect everyone.”1 Peter 2:17, Good News Translation.

Question: How JW show respect to everyone if are not willing to say even hello on street to person who is: everyday sinner, in process of cleaning from sin, in the state of repentance and not doing sin, in a process of fighting against own bad desires with more or less success?  

Can a person be born homosexual?

The Bible doesn’t comment directly on the biology of homosexual desires, though it acknowledges that we are all born with a tendency to go against what God commands. (Romans 7:21-25) Rather than focus on the cause of homosexual desires, however, the Bible prohibits homosexual acts.

the Bible speaks of “those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts,” and then it adds: “That is what some of you were.”1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

In saying “that is what some of you were,” does the Bible mean that those who stopped engaging in homosexual acts never again experienced any homosexual desires? That could hardly be the case, because the Bible also exhorts: “Keep walking by spirit and you will carry out no fleshly desire.”Galatians 5:16.

As to my knowledge from JWorg publications, person who is homosexual is allowed to be baptized and to become member of JW cong as long as he/she not practicing such behavior. In other words, Bro John Doe is a gay, but because he is passive gay or pedophile or ...  (he can have desire, and he have desire) because he have good self control and not practicing sinful desire, he can be invite for lunch in some family with ...minor kids.!?   

Note that the Bible does not say that a Christian will never experience an improper desire. Rather, it says that he or she will choose not to carry out that desire. Christians learn to bring such desires under control, not dwelling on them to the point of acting on them.James 1:14, 15. [6]

The Bible thus makes a distinction between inclinations and practices. (Romans 7:16-25) A person who has homosexual leanings can control what he allows his mind to dwell on, just as he would control any other wrong desire, including leanings toward anger, adultery, and greed.1 Corinthians 9:27; 2 Peter 2:14, 15.

While Jehovah’s Witnesses uphold the moral code set forth in the Bible, they do not force their views on others. Nor do they try to reverse laws that protect the human rights of those whose lifestyle differs from theirs. The message that Jehovah’s Witnesses bear is a positive one, and they eagerly share it with all who will listen.Acts 20:20.

But Jesus said, someone who have sinful thoughts, desires he already made a sin. No matter did he engaging in act or not. So, this is somehow in opposition to explanation we read before in text by JWorg. So, did someone who have just desire and never done nothing to realized it (he is made sin in mind and heart, and by Jesus words, he is wrongdoer) braking the unwritten law said by Jesus.                 Mat 5:27,28  "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." 

Does JW members take a stand about this (statement from Jesus) according to Bible or they need to reconsider rules about this matter? 

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I once heard a talk about this very thing, many years ago....what on earth does it mean? The brother gave some good insight on it that really helped shed some light on Jesus words. His explanation was

We humans can only judge what we see or hear about. Jehovah judges the heart.

I don't think any of us can claim that, and it is rather presumptuous of you if you think you can!

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7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But Jesus said, someone who have sinful thoughts, desires he already made a sin. No matter did he engaging in act or not. So, this is somehow in opposition to explanation we read before in text by JWorg. So, did someone who have just desire and never done nothing to realized it (he is made sin in mind and heart, and by Jesus words, he is wrongdoer) braking the unwritten law said by Jesus. 

I once heard a talk about this very thing, many years ago....what on earth does it mean? The brother gave some good insight on it that really helped shed some light on Jesus words. His explanation was that an individual who thinks or looks at another long enough to have sexual desires for that person....usually at some point acts it out. If one is in the habit of [constantly] having sexual fantasies and or  Sexual desires he/she has a high probability of submitting to it.

The seed of sin has already been planted (looking, longing, fantasizing) within the mind and it is fertilized each time the person in question engages in such thoughts or habits.  Once the root grows deep in the heart....there will be nothing to hold you back. You will act.

So yes....the person has technically ALREADY SINNED  (Premeditation) before the act itself was ever committed. 

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On 11/9/2017 at 6:13 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

As to my knowledge from JWorg publications, person who is homosexual is allowed to be baptized and to become member of JW cong as long as he/she not practicing such behavior. In other words, Bro John Doe is a gay, but because he is passive gay or pedophile or ...  (he can have desire, and he have desire) because he have good self control and not practicing sinful desire, he can be invite for lunch in some family with ...minor kids.!?   

Did you ever hear a person say: "I am gay or I am a pedophile but I have good self-control and am not practicing anything bad so I am okay to invite to lunch with your family including your.....minor kids?

 

On 11/9/2017 at 6:13 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

But Jesus said, someone who have sinful thoughts, desires he already made a sin. No matter did he engaging in act or not. So, this is somehow in opposition to explanation we read before in text by JWorg. So, did someone who have just desire and never done nothing to realized it (he is made sin in mind and heart, and by Jesus words, he is wrongdoer) braking the unwritten law said by Jesus.                 Mat 5:27,28  "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." 

Does JW members take a stand about this (statement from Jesus) according to Bible or they need to reconsider rules about this matter? 

JW scientists are busy at this very moment inventing a machine that can read minds so as to solve this problem.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Did you ever hear a person say: "I am gay or I am a pedophile but I have good self-control and am not practicing anything bad so I am okay to invite to lunch with your family including your.....minor kids?

No, i am not. But i heard that some elders in particular congregation came to knowledge about one bro who have homosexual  inclinations. And they solve that issue by giving him this kind of solution. Be gay, but not have sex with other male.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

JW scientists are busy at this very moment ....

Thanks for funny side :)) But i can be sure about your cognitive abilities that you see the point with this verses. All human are sinners, by accident or by half intention or by full intention to doing bad. And according to sinful state of mind and heart, no matter is that sinning last 2-5 seconds, 15 minutes or on daily basis, once a year, or in some other frequency. if Jesus mean literally what he said, then all would have to face judicial committee :)))))

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

And according to sinful state of mind and heart, no matter is that sinning last 2-5 seconds, 15 minutes or on daily basis, once a year, or in some other frequency. if Jesus mean literally what he said, then all would have to face judicial committee :)))))

We humans can only judge what we see or hear about. Jehovah judges the heart.

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28 minutes ago, Anna said:

We humans can only judge what we see or hear about. Jehovah judges the heart.

Thanks, this is sure one of  best answer, if not the only one, the best comment that someone made, not only to this topic, but also for few similar  topics. And for wisdom person who read it give, bring to be more wise. Who hear let's hear, who read let's read -and take a lesson. :))

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18 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Proverbs 17:17

A friend loves at all times, And a brother is born for adversity.

I will put this verse to some topic. 

Loyalty and Truth. Two moral powers that can exist on same level. 

Are you loyally love your failed "friend" at all times". In bad times, not only in good times?

Can your brotherhood with him, and his with your, be born in "adversity"?

If you start to shun, ignore, reject him because he is "sinner", how you will fulfilled Proverbs? 

Or Jesus words - LOVE YOUR ENEMY?  “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’  But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,..."

 

Is your failed friend your enemy?? Is your dfd brother from cong. your enemy??

If it is LOVE HIM.

If he is not LOVE  HIM. 

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22 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Romans 13:4

for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

WT said this words applied to policeman, inspectors, soldiers, officers .... of secular government ---not elders and judicial committee

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22 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Ecclesiastes 4:9-10

Two are better than one because they have a good return for their labor. For if either of them falls, the one will lift up his companion. But woe to the one who falls when there is not another to lift him up.

again - one person failed (your sinful dfd brother) and others JW members run from them as he is "mentally diseased" apostate. But ok if you scare of apostates, do not talk with him.  What about other sorts of sin? They are also dangerous?

So where is "companion" who will lift up him? Only elders, once a year????? Is elder his "companion"?? or it is someone else??  "But woe.."

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22 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Hebrews 12:5-11

and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

"God deals with you as with sons..." 

not as with  bread for garbage, trash can.

 

 

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@Srecko Sostar     The bread that is thrown in the trash illustrates the person that is discarded by Jehovah because he has sinned against the holy spirit. There is no forgiveness of that type of sin, ever. How would you have illustrated it in comparison with the other types of sin?

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