JWs sue Norwegian government

[George88]

I realize that the concept may be unfamiliar to you, Srecko, however, some individuals have derived this theory from the teachings of the Bible. Now, it's important to note that how we interpret and justify our actions is a separate matter. Imperfections cannot be used as an excuse for an unrepentant soul to rationalize this concept. The illustration below demonstrates a flawed mindset, where people use justification as a scapegoat to blame God for the existence of evil instead of Satan.

Discourse on free will -- Winter, Ernst F; Erasmus, Desiderius, -1536. De libero -- 2005 p.29
“O my people, what have I done to thee” (Micheas 6,3); “They cast away my statutes” (Ezekiel 20,13); “O that my people would hearken to me, that Israel would walk in my ways” (Psalm 80,14); “Who is the man... that he may see good? Then guard thy tongue from evil” (Psalm 33, 13-14). 

Furthermore, whenever the word “will” is used, it implies free will. Doesn't the reader of such passages ask: why do you [God] make conditional promises, when it depends solely on your will? Why do you blame me, when all my works, good or bad, are accomplished by you, and I am only your tool? Why blame me, when it is neither in my power to preserve what you gave me, nor to keep away the evil you implant in me? Why do you implore me, when everything depends on you anyhow and can be carried out only by your will? Why bless me, as if I had done my duty, when everything is your achievement? Why do you curse me, when I have merely sinned through necessity? What is the purpose of all the many commandments, if it is impossible for anybody to keep them? Of course, there are those who deny that man, as much as he may be justified by faith and charity, can fulfill God’s commandments. They insist that all good works, because done according to the “flesh,” must lead to damnation, unless a merciful God, for the sake of their faith, pardons them. But again the Lord’s words spoken through Moses in Deuteronomy 30, 11-14 are plain. The fulfillment of the commandment is not only possible for us, but even easy. 

IRENAEUS, Against Heresies: Book Four - Chapter 37 - Men are Possessed of Free Will, 
Men are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It is Not True, Therefore, that Some are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], "How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,"  set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, "But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God." "But glory and honour," he says, "to every one that doeth good."  God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

(from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1)

[Srecko Sostar]

19 minutes ago, George88 said:

Doesn't this depend on the preferences of the residents? What would happen if you are married and your spouse dislikes that color? This assumption is too general.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. The term "free will" or "choice" has general as well as specific applications.

21 minutes ago, George88 said:

Does this illustration depict the difference between a child doing something wrong and a parent simply feeling overwhelmed by the challenges of daily life? You are outlining two separate perspectives.

Well, you don't think that little troublemakers always do wrong, do you?
Even when they make a bit of a mess in the house because of their game?

Have adults forgotten their childhood?

lol

[Srecko Sostar]

18 minutes ago, George88 said:

Imperfections

Should a "perfect" man and an "imperfect" man be judged according to the same standards and rules?

 

[Srecko Sostar]

9 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Should a "perfect" man and an "imperfect" man be judged according to the same standards and rules?

 

Let's take a hypothetical situation. In Eden, Adam and Eve have children. Now there are almost 100 perfect of them  in Eden. At one point one begins to steal, another begins to lie, a third kills his neighbor, a fourth commits adultery, and a fifth begins to worship the moon when the night is clear.
What will God do? If it is assumed according to the Biblical record, He will drive them out, expel, of Paradise.
How God deals with lawbreakers who are imperfect. According to the Law of Moses, the punishment for most transgressions is death or severe retribution.
An observer would conclude that the punishment is lighter for perfect offenders and heavier for imperfect offenders.

[George88]

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. The term "free will" or "choice" has general as well as specific applications.

The concepts themselves are clear. However, the challenge lies in applying them correctly. As we have come to understand throughout history, our choices as humans are twofold - we can either do what is right or what is wrong. It is through our actions, behavior, and even our words, particularly when directed towards those whom God has chosen as leaders, that God evaluates us. Those who have strayed from the righteous path will face judgment from God Himself. It is not the place of a small, self-appointed group of discontented individuals to determine what is right or wrong. This has never been the case, and it never will be.

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Well, you don't think that little troublemakers always do wrong, do you?
Even when they make a bit of a mess in the house because of their game?

Have adults forgotten their childhood?

lol

Your suggestion implies that all children are inherently wicked, making them enemies of God since birth, instead of gradually becoming adversaries of God through their actions. You have just confirmed a concept from the Watchtower using your own words that you and others have previously criticized the Watchtower for. That truly is quite amusing.
Why do you believe that all children behave in a wild manner?
 

[George88]

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Should a "perfect" man and an "imperfect" man be judged according to the same standards and rules?

Although some may find the concept strange, the undeniable proof lies within the consequences of Adam's judgment in the garden, and the subsequent fallout. Was it part of God's plan for this to occur? No! However, as imperfect beings, we are now burdened with living with the consequences. Therefore, we have lost the privilege and distinction of being perfect like the man whom imperfect humans unjustly killed.
 

[George88]

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Let's take a hypothetical situation. In Eden, Adam and Eve have children. Now there are almost 100 perfect of them  in Eden. At one point one begins to steal, another begins to lie, a third kills his neighbor, a fourth commits adultery, and a fifth begins to worship the moon when the night is clear.
What will God do? If it is assumed according to the Biblical record, He will drive them out, expel, of Paradise.

The initial idea is flawed as it introduces imperfection into a scenario where it should not exist. The use of the word "almost" is irrelevant because, in reality, all the children would have been perfect.

No one in this scenario would have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge, thus being shielded from evil intentions and actions. Hence, this concept would not have come into existence as it is an imperfect theory conceived by an imperfect human.

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

How God deals with lawbreakers who are imperfect. According to the Law of Moses, the punishment for most transgressions is death or severe retribution.
An observer would conclude that the punishment is lighter for perfect offenders and heavier for imperfect offenders.

In the Old Testament, the punishment was severe, but it couldn't prevent God's chosen people from rebelling. Despite witnessing firsthand the wrath of God and receiving warnings from His chosen prophets, they persisted in their wrongful ways.
When Jesus incorporated additional provisions to God's commands, he redistributed certain punishments to governments, thereby attributing to them the duty to administer severe penalties. Considering that Jesus reiterated God's commandment of "You shall not murder" in the New Testament, it becomes evident that governments responsible for executing individuals bear the guilt of bloodshed and will face divine judgment as a result.
 

[Srecko Sostar]

@George88 I have to laugh at your comments, because you are not commenting on my comments at all, but you have your own topic outside the context of my statements.

 

[George88]

Then, @Srecko Sostar, since I did address the irrational nature of your thoughts, you have just proven how disconnected you are from reality.

[Pudgy]

On a related note, yesterday was Groundhog Day, and Joe Biden tried to shake hands with his shadow.

[George88]

Consider this, Srecko: What kind of scale have you created? It is important to note that punishment did apply to a perfect being inside Eden. Hence, it is incorrect to compare the concept of "perfection" and "imperfection" in the same context of existence, since God made punishment universal.  Jesus, who was faultless, was punished and killed by imperfect human beings. Now, the question arises: Was Rome inside the Garden? How about Satan? Won't he meet his ultimate punishment? The first time, God will destroy a heavenly body. Now don't confuse the Nephilim. They were half human and half angel, but they never lived in heaven like Satan and his demonic legion did.

Civil and criminal punishments can vary in severity, and it's vital to understand that attempting to win an argument doesn't guarantee a full grasp of human psychology. Each person is unique, so while one individual may receive a simple ticket for a traffic violation, another may face jail time for the same offense.

What if we consider a scenario involving an individual who committed a crime against children, regardless of whether it was direct or indirect in nature? In this case, one person managed to secure probation by successfully deceiving their lawyer and the judge, ultimately convincing the court. On the other hand, another person, who was not as persuasive, received the maximum sentence of 10 years for the same offense. The question we're left with is: Who truly benefited more, the liar or the less convincing one?

What are the implications of your unconventional perspective on justifications? You've been through this in the past, and you have been unconvincing with the arguments made by you and your proxies that feed you your lines of defense, lol!

[Pudgy]

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

@George88 I have to laugh at your comments, because you are not commenting on my comments at all, but you have your own topic outside the context of my statements.

 

It’s really, really sad in a way to see such neurotic insecurity and envy on display. 

But, I suppose Wally McNasty will ALWAYS be Wally McNasty, and distort reality at every opportunity. 

It is funny in a way, sorta like watching a guy with big ears and no teeth hook his lower lip over his nose.