JWs sue Norwegian government

[George88]

You must grasp the distinction between repentance and being unrepentant. This understanding will enable you to accurately interpret and apply scripture. Srecko, by persistently spreading confusion, I believe you can be classified as a reviler.

Ephesians 5:7-9 New Century Version

7 So have nothing to do with them. 8 In the past you were full of darkness, but now you are full of light in the Lord. So live like children who belong to the light. 9 Light brings every kind of goodness, right living, and truth.

Srecko, your aim should be to challenge scripture and anyone who opposes God's words and commands.

[Srecko Sostar]

A detail that could perhaps be important for the court in Oslo, but also globally, is this: Is ostracism towards disobedient former members the product of an institutional order, rule, doctrine, practice?

Many ex-Jws have left WTJWorg because they do not agree with JWs doctrines. Such members, we can say, actually "change their religion" in such a way. In this context, WTJWorg must not exert any kind of pressure on such persons because such behavior falls under "religiously motivated hatred and persecution" against those who do not share the same religious beliefs as JWs.

So, I think that JWs should look more deeply at the way and consequences of their own interpretations of certain biblical quotes. While WTJWorg appeals to the UN rights and freedom of belief/religion, at the same time JW religious leaders and JW members grossly violate them with their own actions.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, George88 said:

Does Jerome's opinion really matter to God?

He presented arguments from other sources. It's up to you to take them seriously.

[George88]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

A detail that could perhaps be important for the court in Oslo, but also globally, is this: Is ostracism towards disobedient former members the product of an institutional order, rule, doctrine, practice?

Many ex-Jws have left WTJWorg because they do not agree with JWs doctrines.

Your recent post on freedom of religion contradicts you. It is crucial to understand that every institution has the right to worship God according to its own beliefs, and neither you nor any government should impose restrictions on how they establish their bylaws. The Watchtower, for instance, defines its principles based on scripture. Unless you have substantial evidence to challenge scripture, your activism serves no purpose.

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

So, I think that JWs should look more deeply at the way and consequences of their own interpretations of certain biblical quotes. While WTJWorg appeals to the UN rights and freedom of belief/religion, at the same time JW religious leaders and JW members grossly violate them with their own actions.

It is troubling to see governments and ex-witnesses condemning the Watchtower's use of the Bible as its constitution. It reminds me of Hitler and Nazi Germany. This comparison is deeply concerning and should not be taken lightly.

Do not forget Srecko, who are you to question the word of God? Who has the authority to make such a challenge? There is no one here that can.

[George88]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

He presented arguments from other sources. It's up to you to take them seriously.

It is of no challenge to me whether it comes from former witnesses or disfellowshipped individuals, or blind governments that accept false narratives as a condition for punishment.

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, George88 said:

Your recent post on freedom of religion contradicts you. It is crucial to understand that every institution has the right to worship God according to its own beliefs, and neither you nor any government should impose restrictions on how they establish their bylaws. The Watchtower, for instance, defines its principles based on scripture. Unless you have substantial evidence to challenge scripture, your activism serves no purpose.

I am of the opinion that "every institution" should primarily act in accordance with the Law that comes from "secular authorities".
JWs misinterpret the Bible when they say that world governments are under the "authority of Satan", because such an interpretation is contrary to the statement we find in the same Bible in Rom 13, which says: "1 Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. 2Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves."

If you will say that the apostles showed that one can be disobedient, because they said; "We must obey God rather than men", then let's keep in mind that the apostles were disobedient to the "religious authorities" when they said this. That is context.

Every other example of disobedience on the part of believers (Jews or Christians) that we find in the Bible, and is connected with political, i.e. secular authorities, is only proof that the secular authorities, if the law is such, will be able to punish you without remorse. And in that case, the statement from Romans 13 will prove quite clear and logical context.

Whether any of this in life is fair or not is up for debate as much as whether "WTJWorg theology" is fair or not.

What is or will be the perception of a believer or a religious community, is their problem. Whether one of them will consider it as "persecution" or simply "punishment of a disobedient citizen or religious institution" is a matter of interpretation. And that is a wide field that can be manipulated in the public space.

God says, "if you don't obey, you will be punished". The Government says the same.

"Religious authorities" in the form of JWs elders can engage in "punishment" as part of their own "interpretations" of the Bible and other texts in their publications. But they are subordinate, lower than the Law of a state. Many religions, such as WTJWorg, because of this status, often use "theocratic methods" to circumvent the Law.
The most common method is to misrepresent the facts, distort them or completely hide them. They do this, very often, in the public space, in front of the media and in the courts and in front of other "secular" institutions.

7 hours ago, George88 said:

It is troubling to see governments and ex-witnesses condemning the Watchtower's use of the Bible as its constitution. It reminds me of Hitler and Nazi Germany. This comparison is deeply concerning and should not be taken lightly.

WTJWorg is teaming up with some political bodies to fight for "their religious freedoms" against some states where the laws are not favorable to JWs. The parallel you are talking about also exists in such a relationship between JW religion and "satanic" political bodies . You are conflicted, aren't you?

The courts are of the opinion that the existence of various religious communities is necessary for the pluralism of society. JWs have the opportunity to be registered and active because of this attitude of the state. They can exist because of "pluralism".

On the other hand, WTJWorg and consequently JWs have the view that pluralism is harmful. This can be seen in their preaching activity, i.e. "educational and humanitarian program" in which they condemn all other religions as "false religions", in which they condemn all political bodies as "satanic instruments". It is also seen in the relentless "persecution" of anyone who disagrees with GB theology.

So, hypocrisy in its full force.

[George88]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I am of the opinion that "every institution" should primarily act in accordance with the Law that comes from "secular authorities".

 

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

WTJWorg is teaming up with some political bodies to fight for "their religious freedoms" against some states where the laws are not favorable to JWs. The parallel you are talking about also exists in such a relationship between JW religion and "satanic" political bodies . You are conflicted, aren't you?

If governments exceed God's laws, true Christians should, as Jesus, Paul, and the apostles did, fulfill their duty to obey God's laws. Hence, your opinion would be mistaken in this case. The Watchtower adheres to secular laws in a manner that does not violate God's laws.

You are promoting disobedience. Who between opposers and true Christians has more credibility before God?
The apostles grasped the "evil intent" of the Sanhedrin court, the very court that condemned Christ to death. In our flawed nature, we would never have permitted such a heinous act. This is precisely why Christ remarked that if his kingdom were of this world, his followers would have fought for him. John 18:36

Your mindset only serves to promote a false portrayal of the human condition.

Disobedience carries consequences. Those who did not adhere to God's commandments in the past faced physical punishment. We now have his guidance in written form, and his retribution comes through biblical understanding. It's a matter of integrity. We might believe we can engage in private actions of disobedience and go unpunished, but God sees everything. So, there is no escaping the consequences.

How can one possibly engage in a debate with the Almighty? When did humanity assume a position of superiority over God in your perspective? God bestowed His laws for us to embrace, while also granting us the remarkable gift of free will.

No one has the right to make decisions on behalf of someone else. Each person is responsible for their own choices. If someone makes a poor decision and refuses to acknowledge it, they have no one to hold accountable other than themselves, even though those who have been "disfellowshipped" are often quick to shift blame onto others.

The Watchtower has destroyed my life and family. They cannot be blamed for an individual's decision to commit heinous acts. The Watchtower's influence even affects my ability to receive life-saving blood transfusions despite biblical provisions etc.

There are so many things wrong with those who seek excuses and justifications for their actions and behavior that it would make a psychiatrist's head spin. Ultimately, who are we deceiving if not ourselves?
So No! The Watchtower is not collaborating with anyone. They are, instead, exposing the injustice and hypocrisy of a government driven by Satan's influence. The real hypocrisy lies within those governments and former witnesses who stand by them.

[Srecko Sostar]

33 minutes ago, George88 said:

The Watchtower adheres to secular laws in a manner that does not violate God's laws.

and in continue you said this:

34 minutes ago, George88 said:

You are promoting disobedience.

With first claim you you in fact said how WTJWorg promote disobedience against secular laws (by interpreting Bible text as they see it is fit to their understanding). lol

39 minutes ago, George88 said:

Disobedience carries consequences.

In both ways.

40 minutes ago, George88 said:

How can one possibly engage in a debate with the Almighty? When did humanity assume a position of superiority over God in your perspective? God bestowed His laws for us to embrace, while also granting us the remarkable gift of free will.

The very fact that "free will" exists allows man to be "superior" to God, in a certain way. It may sound strange, but God cannot force you to do as He wants. Well, His "omnipotence" over man is only in the possibility that God will "kill" you because you do not want to listen/obey Him. But what is actually proven by that? Only that there is someone physically stronger than an individual or the whole world.

If God "gave free will" to people, He gave them a powerful tool (weapon) against Himself. In a way, He equated them with himself, and occasionally in some situations people became, conditionally speaking, "superior" in relation to God.

When God gave free will to people, He knew what good and bad things could come from it. So, people should not be judged for choosing to use their free will. It is only a consequence of the "opportunity" given to them. No one is to blame. Neither God nor people.

Consequences of free choice? It is just the result of a consensus reached about what is considered "good" and what is "bad". And as we can see, the benchmarks, principles are changing, even at WTJWorg.

[Srecko Sostar]

The easiest way to refute WTJWorg and Jehovah's Witnesses is their own literature. Here is another of the many examples that prove how GB loses all credibility when they wants to sue states/governments and former members of its church.

"No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family." - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102009251

Institutional rules based on GB interpretations of the Bible have exactly this effect - forcing only one type of worship that is determined by GB theology even though the person feels threatened by it.
Compulsion to choose; or family or religion.

I hope that the Court in Oslo will expose the hypocrisy and misrepresentation of all those who represented and defended JWs in court.

 

[George88]

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

With first claim you you in fact said how WTJWorg promote disobedience against secular laws (by interpreting Bible text as they see it is fit to their understanding). lol

What's amusing is when a former witness distorts the words of others to arrive at a completely false conclusion, lol!

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In both ways.

Which one would be in favor of God?

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The very fact that "free will" exists allows man to be "superior" to God, in a certain way.

Only someone who disrespects and denies the existence of God would hold such a belief. This is the root of your issue - presuming that you have the authority to question God, which you don't.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

When God gave free will to people, He knew what good and bad things could come from it. So, people should not be judged for choosing to use their free will. It is only a consequence of the "opportunity" given to them. No one is to blame. Neither God nor people.

In your argument, you fail to acknowledge the significance of the word "choice" which is intricately linked to this bold assertion. Once more, you possess the freedom to challenge God and face His judgment. However, what makes you believe that others should willingly embrace your act of defiance?

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Consequences of free choice? It is just the result of a consensus reached about what is considered "good" and what is "bad". And as we can see, the benchmarks, principles are changing, even at WTJWorg.

This is a psychological assumption made by a non-professional, to a true Christian. The way you conflate free will and choice is evidence of that. 

[George88]

13 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The easiest way to refute WTJWorg and Jehovah's Witnesses is their own literature. Here is another of the many examples that prove how GB loses all credibility when they wants to sue states/governments and former members of its church.

The key concept to grasp here is worship, and it is precisely this worship that the hypocritical government is obstructing the Watchtower.

17 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Institutional rules based on GB interpretations of the Bible have exactly this effect - forcing only one type of worship that is determined by GB theology even though the person feels threatened by it.

Once again, blaming the Org for God's rules and commands. A true apostate's words.

20 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I hope that the Court in Oslo will expose the hypocrisy and misrepresentation of all those who represented and defended JWs in court.

I hope that the courts will expose former witnesses for trying to distort scripture. They should be seen as bad company for true followers of Christ, as directed by Jesus and God's word.

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, George88 said:

Only someone who disrespects and denies the existence of God would hold such a belief. This is the root of your issue - presuming that you have the authority to question God, which you don't.

JWs explain that God left Satan and Adam and Eve alive so that questions about who has the right to rule and similar questions about God's justice could be answered. Because if God immediately punished them with death, the angels would have doubts as to whether the rebels were right after all.

This actually means that God has allowed his authority to be questioned, by humans and angels, until today. So, you didn't reason correctly, and you didn't understand the answer I gave. Your comment means that if you are a JW, you haven't studied the official theology of the WTJWorg enough. And neither were they when they explained the events in Paradise that way. Because such explanation by GB open door to comment in the way i gave.