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14 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The heart determines what it wants and then entrusts the head to devise a convincing rationale for it, giving the appearance that it is the head running the show. But it is the heart all along.

 

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Everything is a matter of personal opinion ONLY ... unless it can be backed up by hard facts that can be independently verified.

For the irrational and the sloppy, TTH, the heart determines what it wants and then entrusts the head to devise a convincing rationale for it, giving the appearance that it is the head running the show.

That's why there are GOOD detectives .... and there are BAD detectives.

....... bad detectives do not detect much.

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I think you have just inadvertently admitted why Jesus was so dead-set against looking for signs indicating how close we were to the END. When people begin trying to use various ideas from world event

Quote @JW Insider "No one should be able to say, oh look at this war, "See here!" it is the greatest war ever seen, or "Look at this great earthquake, or famine, or pestilence, " But isn't that w

Facts are nice, but they are overrated. They are downright dangerous things in the hands of some, who handle them as deftly as a surgeon with a jackhammer. Facts mean little in themselves. It’s h

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The heart determines what it wants and then entrusts the head to devise a convincing rationale for it, giving the appearance that it is the head running the show. But it is the heart all along

That is very true about how humans make choices in life. I have heard some psychologist explain just that. It is then good to have that in mind when we evaluate our choices of beliefs. We should ask ourself, what I currently belive, is it actually true, or is it just what I want to believe?

Very true statement Tom, great thanks for that!

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Of course! There is no question in my mind that you should be running everything.

You are wise, Grasshopper, but the only problem with that is I do not want to run anything.

One day an ex-wife was watching me clean my firearms, covering the dining room table, and looking down, disapprovingly asked "What would you do if nobody ELSE had guns?"

I turned and looked up at her and said "Rule wisely."

... but I was just kidding.

... too much work.

Extreme Ironing.jpg

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We are all playing the roles that we think we must and there is no sense in taking anything personally. Fortunately, that is in my bag of strengths—a bag that doesn’t have as many of them as I might like, but it does have that one. Once again I take note with some approval that Kos does not return evil for evil—an undeniably good quality. I will continue to indirectly slam him, no doubt, because I think his ‘theology’ is downright loopy, but it is nothing personal. I would hope he would get his Act together and work in harmony with his wife’s spirituality, but I concede that seems most unlikely. Even the bellicose Captain with the head of Cement—all mixed up and firmly set—seems very unlikely to ever change in the slightest degree.

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On 3/23/2020 at 1:59 AM, JW Insider said:

It makes it even more clear that the parousia/presence is actually the revelation and manifestation of Jesus Christ, an event that suddenly shines like lightning from one end of the horizon immediately over to the opposite horizon.

That's encouraging that you too have understood it right. 

Could it be that Jesus' presence begins with his arrival, with the visible manifestation? 

Revelation 1:7  Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him.Yes, Amen.

Normally after for example a guest has arrived he is present.

But what should happen after that? 

Mark 13:24  “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25  and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26  And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27  And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.

Yes, we see that when Jesus arrives in this spectacular way, then he will with the help of his angels gather the living anointed to heaven. And we have learnt that, after that, Jesus' marriage feast with his bride, the anointed will take place. But we don't know how long that marrige feast will go on in heaven.

And the Bible says that nations will gather at Armageddon to fight against Jesus. Armageddon is a place in Israel. And a number of people in the world belive that Jesus or just Messiah will come and rule from Jerusalem. So could it be that armies of the world will just because of that gather at litteral Har-Megiddon to prevent Jesus' rule over the earth? 

The war at Armageddon would mark the beginning of the elimination of the wicked. 

13  And I saw three unclean inspired expressions that looked like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the wild beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14  They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and they perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.15  “Look! I am coming as a thief. Happy is the one who stays awake and keeps his outer garments, so that he may not walk naked and people look upon his shamefulness.”16  And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Armageddon.

After the destruction of Babylon the Great demons should know that the end is near. And in a last attempt to prevent Jesus to begin his rule over the earth, they the demons, would gather the world's armies to litteral Har-Meggidon so that Jesus could not begin to rule from Jerusalem. 

Could it be that God's kingdom will have some kind of earthly representation in litteral Jerusalem? 

There are a lot of scriptures making a such apparence. I am not dogmatic either way. I can not reject a such possibility, but I can not either prove it yet. 

The battle at Armageddon was the sixth bowl of God's anger. Then the next fase is the seventh bowl. It could take some time after the battle at Armageddon for the seventh bowl to perform all its features.

Revelation 16:17  The seventh one poured out his bowl on the air. At this a loud voice came out of the sanctuary from the throne, saying: “It has come to pass!” 18  And there were flashes of lightning and voices and thunders, and there was a great earthquake unlike any that had occurred since men came to be on the earth, so extensive and so great was the earthquake.19  The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell; and Babylon the Great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20  Also, every island fled, and mountains were not found. 21  Then great hailstones, each about the weight of a talent, fell from heaven on the people, and the people blasphemed God because of the plague of hail, for the plague was unusually great.

Oddly Babylon the Great is mentioned here again after Armageddon. How is that possible? Was just a part of Babylon the Great destroyed earlier? Maybe the center of Babylon the Great was destroyed first. So it lost its power over the kings of the earth. And then later it was destroyed completely. (You surely remember that I believe that Babylon the Great is New York)

Yes, you have surely realized that my view of Armageddon differs from the WT organization's.

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On 3/23/2020 at 2:34 AM, JW Insider said:

4 The danger of starting to think we know a date that is so close that we begin "serving with a date in mind." In other words, our motivation for our service to Jehovah becomes a works-based sprint to see how much we can do, rather than a focus on love as a response to His undeserved kindness.

There is a 5th danger. Because of erroneous understandings about events tied to the conclusion of this system of things, we could lose our vigilance and become disoriented. 

Let's say we believe the WT organization will exist all the way to paradise. But what happens if it is taken over by the government and it starts to promote worship of the beast? Or if the WT organization is liquadated, like it happened in Russia? Or something in between happens? 

What would you do? And if it becomes a crime to witness about Jesus? And the following really happens everywhere in the world and it continues for some years.

Matthew 24:9  “Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name. 10  Then, too, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 

How would you start to feel after 1 year, or 2 years or 3 years? 

Unfortunately many will be stumbled just as Jesus said. Stumbled must refer to those who once believed, but lost their faith.

In this scenario it would be really helpful to understand all that is related to the final time, times and half a time. Wouldn't it?

Both Revelation and Daniel tell us about that specific time period. Daniel is even more specific. 

Daniel 12:7 “How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?” 7  Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish.”

11  “And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days.12  “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days!

Here we see that the constant feature will be removed. And that will be followed by 1335 difficult days. 

I think enduring that time will be easier if we are confident that after 1335 days it will get better. Don't you think that?

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8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Once again I take note with some approval that Kos does not return evil for evil—an undeniably good quality.

Thanks for that compliment. Here on the internet I have more time to take it easy. In real life unfortunately I regret things I say everyday due to stress. Especially at work. I think Jehovah God through Jesus gives me constantly new challenges to train on. I work at an apartment house construction site and there are a lot of things to get irritated at. I pray every morning Jehovah God's help to evolve the new personality in its entirety, to put on Jesus Christ. And little by little I see progress. 

It is helpful to read the New Testament, with clear warnings. That motivates to take one's own behaviour seriously. Sayings such as:

Matthew 12:35 The good man out of his good treasure sends out good things, whereas the wicked man out of his wicked treasure sends out wicked things. 36  I tell you that men will render an account on Judgment Day for every unprofitable saying that they speak; 37  for by your words you will be declared righteous, and by your words you will be condemned.”

James 1: 26 If any man thinks he is a worshipper of God but does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he is deceiving his own heart, and his worship is futile.

Yes, I like that God's word is very clear and specific. Especially the New Testament. I regret that I used to read the Bible from cover to cover all the time the last 15 years. Just a few months ago I begun to focus on the NT. 

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2 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Could it be that Jesus' presence begins with his arrival, with the visible manifestation?

Yes. I know of only a few other JWs who admit to believing this. Not that it should mean that much to us, but hundreds of thousands of Bible readers, and most Bible scholars and commentators have believed exactly this way through the centuries.

2 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Normally after for example a guest has arrived he is present.

This is true. Even those persons and translators who didn't have access to the first-century definition of "royal parade-like visitation" (discovered in the early 1900's from first-century papyri) had already understood the truth of the matter even from the original "basic" definition of parousia, which is related to being present.

2 hours ago, Kosonen said:

But what should happen after that? 

The parousia is accompanied by a spectacular judgment event, sometimes referred to in Jewish literature of that time period as a "synteleia" which can refer to a destructive "end of all things together." The "end of all things" judgment event is part of the parousia according to the Bible usage (Matthew 24:3). The parousia of a royal personage could include a judgment event even among the Roman emperors and their officials when they visited a province. But these other royal visitations were parade-like and therefore called parousia's, but not synteleia's. I think it's only a synteleia if it includes a destructive judgment event.

It's this judgment, I think, that is referred to with the symbolism of stars falling and in other places, mountains falling, the sun and moon not giving light, etc. The separation of sheep from goats, the resurrection of righteous and unrighteous, the gathering of the anointed, etc. All these things happen at this time period. It does not matter how long it takes, or exactly what things happen just before or after the other things, at this point. It's too late to change divine judgment at this point, so it doesn't matter if the time periods are literal or not after judgment begins.

2 hours ago, Kosonen said:

And the Bible says that nations will gather at Armageddon to fight against Jesus. Armageddon is a place in Israel.

Armageddon is probably NOT a place in Israel, so speculation based on this idea probably won't get us very far. Surely you do not actually think that 12,000 persons of the 144,000 are coming from the smallest tribe of Israel, and another 12,000 come from the largest tribe of Israel, do you? (Revelation 7:5-8) Is this literal when it says "out of the tribe of Zebʹu·lun 12,000"?

2 hours ago, Kosonen said:

So could it be that armies of the world will just because of that gather at litteral Har-Megiddon to prevent Jesus' rule over the earth?

Since there is no literal Har-Mageddon, afaik, it seems unlikely.

2 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Could it be that God's kingdom will have some kind of earthly representation in litteral Jerusalem? 

Revelation does not describe a literal Jerusalem, and as I said before, I don't think there is a literal Har-Mageddon, so I think these are "virtual" locations. Much like the use of Jerusalem made in Hebrews and Galatians:

(Hebrews 12:22, 23) . . .But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens,. . .

(Galatians 4:26) 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

2 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Oddly Babylon the Great is mentioned here again after Armageddon. How is that possible?

Because, if Babylon represents the primary tangible "enemy" that Christians must conquer, then when Christians have survived, and have actually conquered, It deserves a recap/summary as part of the final bowl.

(John 16:33) . . .. In the world you will have tribulation, but take courage! I have conquered the world.

(1 John 5:4, 5) . . .And this is the conquest that has conquered the world, our faith. 5 Who can conquer the world? Is it not the one who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?

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16 hours ago, Kosonen said:

I think enduring that time will be easier if we are confident that after 1335 days it will get better. Don't you think that?

I'm not at all suggesting that this is the true meaning of those final verses of Daniel, but they do rather eerily correspond to the experience of almost everyone who feels the frustration of pinning their hopes on chronology.

Here is a quote from the actual verses again, followed by a paraphrase of what might be written between the lines. Let the reader use discernment, while keeping their tongue in cheek:

([ACTUAL] Daniel 12:6-13) . . .“How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?” 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. . . . 8 Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so I said: “O my lord, what will be the outcome of these things?” 9 Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand. 11 . . . there will be 1,290 days. 12 “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days! 13 “But as for you, go on to the end. You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.”

([FAKE] Daniel 12:6-13) . . .“How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?” 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: [“IT'S GOING TO BE 1,260 DAYS"] . . .  8 Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so I said: “O my lord, what will be the outcome of these things?” 9 Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand. . . . [YOU WILL PROBABLY WONDER WHY NOTHING SEEMED TO HAPPEN AT THE END OF 1,260 DAYS AND RECALCULATE TO ANNOUNCE]. . . .there will be 1,290 days. [AND WHEN THAT DOESN'T WORK OUT YOU WILL PROBABLY THINK YOU CAN RECALCULATE AGAIN AND ANNOUNCE:] 12 “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days! 13 “But as for you, go on to the end. [IN FACT, YOU MAY CONTINUE TO GO ON FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE AND WONDER WHY YOU NEVER COULD FIGURE OUT WHY YOUR OWN EXPECTATION PROVED WRONG FOR 1,260, then 1290, THEN 1,335 DAYS. BUT DON'T WORRY AT ALL. THESE TIME PERIODS ARE GOD'S, NOT YOURS. YOU MAY LIVE OUT YOUR LIFE AND REST IN THE GROUND, BUT REST ASSURED] . . . You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.”

Although this FAKE ending of Daniel probably seems ludicrous to you, it has been the exact experience of thousands of persons who thought they could figure out just what is the meaning of the 1,260 days. Several times in the 1800's, for example, men tried to pinpoint the end. Some started announcing in 1840 that the end was about 3.5 years away, but when it didn't happen in 1843, they recalculated and picked new dates in 1844, and then when it didn't happen in October 1844, they waited right up to nearly the last cold day of 1844. Then again it happened in the 1860's, and then it happened again in the 1870's. (Barbour said it would be 1873, then changed it to 1874, then his group recalculated possible dates in 1874. Then, when 1874 failed, they decided it was 1874 all along but invisible.) Then it happened again around 1914, when the "END" of this system had been predicted, and then when it didn't happen, the end "of the Gentile Times" was moved to 1915. A few months after it didn't happen then, the Finished Mystery book, predicted the end of this system for 1918. When it didn't happen then, it was predicted again for 1925.**

I think we should stop trying to go where angels should fear to tread, and trust that the end can come at any time. It is our lot to live our lives in expectation that it can happen at any time, yet, for all of us it will happen unexpectedly, in an instant, at the very end of our current lives, if not sooner.

**Ironically, the expression in Daniel 12:12: "Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days" is interpreted in the Watchtower to mean the year 1925. This was probably the saddest and most embarrassing year in the history of the Watch Tower Society. Does this sound happy?

*** yb75 p. 146 Part 2—United States of America ***
So, as Anna MacDonald recalls: “1925 was a sad year for many brothers. Some of them were stumbled; their hopes were dashed. They had hoped to see some of the ‘ancient worthies’ [men of old like Abraham] resurrected. Instead of its being considered a ‘probability,’ they read into it that it was a ‘certainty,’ and some prepared for their own loved ones with expectancy of their resurrection.

Imagine, being told that 1925 was a sure thing, even surer than 1914, with even more assurances than Noah had for believing God when God told him there would be a flood. The Watchtower said it was not just a probability but a certainty. Based on that certainty, some brothers even built houses and extra rooms for their resurrected loved ones. Imagine them thinking of Noah explaining to passersby why he was building an ark, when brothers in 1924 and 1925 were explaining to passersby why they were building additions onto their homes. Then imagine being told that it was their own fault for believing the Watchtower which had indicated that it was a certainty, and not just a probability. In fact, they should have never even considered 1925 to be any stronger of a probability than 1850 or 1935 or 1975 or 2034!

Those who pin their hopes on any specific signs or dates will probably have those hopes dashed.

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9 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Those who pin their hopes on any specific signs or dates will probably have those hopes dashed.

Yes, so sad. It would have been better if they had understood what the removal of the constant feature means and also what the disgusting thing means. 

I have an idea what that means, and I will wait till I see that happen. I will not start to count down 1335 days before that. (Hopefully)

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