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Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK


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I think you have just inadvertently admitted why Jesus was so dead-set against looking for signs indicating how close we were to the END. When people begin trying to use various ideas from world event

Quote @JW Insider "No one should be able to say, oh look at this war, "See here!" it is the greatest war ever seen, or "Look at this great earthquake, or famine, or pestilence, " But isn't that w

Facts are nice, but they are overrated. They are downright dangerous things in the hands of some, who handle them as deftly as a surgeon with a jackhammer. Facts mean little in themselves. It’s h

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On 3/19/2020 at 3:22 AM, Kosonen said:

horse, and its Rider Jesus

The white horse which rides symbolises the beginning of christ's reign because the rider has a 'crown'  and a bow.  At this time the horse rider throws Satan and his demons out of heaven and we see the signs of this event here on earth (the other three horse riders 'follow' the white horse - so these events follow the crowning of christ and him 'conquering' and the throwing out of heaven of the satan and his demons..)

Later we see this white horse rider in righteous warfare during Armageddon where he is establishing himself as the king of kings here on earth. The rider (christ) is followed by the heavenly armies which kill all humans with the mark of the beast here on earth.  The birds of the heavens are invited to the feast of the flesh of kings, slaves, Freeman, small and great. The wild beast and false prophet is destroyed and those with its mark....... the battle is between heavenly forces and kings here on earth. Rev 19: 11 to end.

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3 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Maybe some do. But for me it has an other effect. I get time to mature spiritually. I don't consider myself yet fully in right form.

That was an excellent set of related scriptures by the way. It also adds another dimension to the point they are making when we realize that "the day of Christ" is paralleled with "parousia" (presence) so many more times than most of us probably realize. It makes it even more clear that the parousia/presence is actually the revelation and manifestation of Jesus Christ, an event that suddenly shines like lightning from one end of the horizon immediately over to the opposite horizon.

Making wise use of the remaining time is always a good idea, of course. So, adding to your list, there are probably dozens more and a close look at all of them together also shows why we cannot know the time of the parousia:

(Romans 13:11) . . .And do this because you know the season, that it is already the hour for you to awake from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became believers.

(Ephesians 5:15, 16) . . .So keep strict watch that how YOU walk is not as unwise but as wise [persons], 16 buying out the opportune time for yourselves, because the days are wicked. . .

(1 Timothy 6:14, 15) . . .to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings . . ."  Note the full phrase "manifestation of his parousia/presence" in 2 Thessalonians 2:8.

(Titus 2:12, 13) 12 It trains us to reject ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion amid this present system of things, 13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ,

Of course, I'm sure there is nothing wrong with the perspective of maturing and gaining more spirituality. But thinking that "for sure" we have a few more years to continue gaining maturity can still be a dangerous thing, especially if the end comes tonight. And during turbulent times, the end can come at any time. The "Day of Jesus Christ," the Parousia, is as close as a single lifetime for all of us.

(Luke 12:20, 21) . . .But God said to him, ‘Unreasonable one, this night they are demanding your life from you. Who, then, is to have the things you stored up?’ 21 So it goes with the man who stores up treasure for himself but is not rich toward God.”

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6 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But isn't that what the GB and CCJW do ?   Don't they misuse the sufferings of others to hype up their own agenda ?

The GB teaches that all of Matthew 24 are signs that were especially prevalent around 1914. This is not misusing the sufferings of others to hype up their own agenda. It's an interpretation. And yes, it's an interpretation that is very easy to fall into. I'm sure that's why Jesus warned us about exactly that sort of thing. There is a danger in it, but it's not the danger of misusing others' suffering.

I think the most likely dangers are the following:

  1. The danger of hubris and presumptuousness and pride in thinking that we can solve some chronology issues related to the parousia when these are things that not even the angels should try to do. It's not in our jurisdiction. It's in Jehovah's jurisdiction. But we think that we are special and it gives us bragging rights to think of ourselves as a kind of prophet.
  2. The danger of believing that we are fated to a certain set of developments in our lifetime and our therefore "immune" to true empathy and sympathy for the sighing and groaning of people without hope in this system.
  3. The danger of starting to think we know a date that is just far enough off so that it gives us more time to prepare.
  4. The danger of starting to think we know a date that is so close that we begin "serving with a date in mind." In other words, our motivation for our service to Jehovah becomes a works-based sprint to see how much we can do, rather than a focus on love as a response to His undeserved kindness.

But the GB are not now hurting anyone with an identification of the parousia happening in 1914. What we define as a parousia is something else altogether from what the Bible defined it as, so we are really just saying that Christ is King and has been present since before any of us were born. Whether that was 33 or 1874 or 1914 makes no difference now. We're in the same situation, regardless. It was only a problem while we were watching for the number of years since 1914 that might be in a generation or a lifespan while awaiting the REAL manifestation of his presence on judgment day. But we no longer do that.

I don't think it's a conscious decision, but the new definition of generation is really just a throw-away definition that effectively tosses out the idea of a generation or lifespan from 1914. So most of that problem is gone. 1914 itself is actually just kept as an artifact of pride. It's a way of protecting a tradition that 'saves face' since we already held onto it for so long and since it was once "predicted" by people related to us in the faith.  I mean that it was "predicted" in the sense that it was associated with a phrase: "end of the Gentile Times." Everything else about that prediction failed, and in fact even the phrase "end of the Gentile Times" failed. The phrase back then had nothing to do with what we claim it means now. Still, 1914 is so long ago that it has no effect on our current conduct. We are really right back to the Biblically-supported situation where we need to take advantage of the UNKNOWN AMOUNT of remaining time to keep maturing and showing love and faith and responding to undeserved kindness with actual "good works."

6 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Didn't a GB member say he was not bothered by this virus and that  'we were expecting it to happen' as part of a sign of the end times ?

The context sounds better than just that one sentence. But yes, I think he fell into one of the common dangers of confirmation bias when you promote a specific eschatology. See danger #2 above, perhaps even a little of danger #1.

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8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't think it's a conscious decision, but the new definition of generation is really just a throw-away definition that effectively tosses out the idea of a generation or lifespan from 1914. So most of that problem is gone.

It can be so for new and coming generations of JW members ( younger in age and who are not so long time in organization). Older members try/tried to cope with issue and found few methods how to deal with wrong faith doctrine. 

More serious "problem" not gone, and will stay "forever". To give and show trust in GB leaders, because Jesus also trust GB. :)) 

In some situation it is good to show trust in "authority". For example, here in Croatia and especially in Zagreb after strong earthquake citizens need to show trust and listen to secular authority and medical experts how to deal with two problems.

PS

As ironic way of look on technology, we can add: "thanks" to devil weapon/invention called web, internet, satan raised JW meetings and preaching on next level, scale - in virtual reality. You can stay at home and spread the word. Perhaps costs for organized preaching, as publisher, pioneer and missioner or for any other special service, will not require, for these reason, donation money in the future :))  

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The premise, and apparently the hope, of this entire thread Kos stated early on:

“I told my wife that maybe there will never again be meetings as before. I hope the JWs will wake up and start to examine the scriptures seriously and search what all this could lead to.“

In fact, it looks like meetings are pretty much going on with barely a hiccup. They have simply switched to conference-call software, with telephone tie-in for any not up to speed on this. If Kos foresees that every child in the world can download apps showing the alignment of the planets, I don’t why he would have any problem foreseeing this, but it doesn’t appear that he did. Rather than take his self-predicted five years to make himself even more insightful and pure than he already is, maybe he should repent if possible and try to get into that new format with his wife rather than being a drag that she must contend with.

Our congregation will start with the conference calls at this mid-week meeting, Zoom in our case. (We will meet in Zoom Rooms—who would have thunk it?) Over the weekend we streamed it from apparently one of the Bethels. I could not help but think how the contents would have been disappointing to any ‘anti-cultist’ because there was not a bit of alarmism and everyone treated the virus threat as just one more run-of-the-mill challenge to adapt to. Referred to several times in comments, it wasn’t even called the ‘Chinese virus.’ They didn’t get into any squabbles if they should be able to do it that way or not—since it gets some all incensed, they avoided the term, and just said virus or Covid 19 or Corona or whatever. It is so much like this world to ‘taunt’ the other side, deliberately getting them going usually for the sake of putting down, if not ridicule, but they didn’t stoop to that for a moment. It almost made me ashamed that i do stoop to it (but probably not ashamed enough to stop), though I am trying to restrain myself, not always easily.

They didn’t sensationalize this virus even a little bit, much less use it to ‘scare’ people. It easily could be used that way. They didn’t. Not even a hint of it. So I will—just in a speculative bent, you understand, no more.

For the longest time we have said our preaching will end someday. What if this turns out to be it? It’s not impossible, though no one suggests it. I expect this to blow over and normal preaching and activities will resume, but there is no reason to accept that as a foregone conclusion. What if the world leaders who just assume you can shut down the entire world economy and start it up again are wrong, and instead another worldwide Great Depression ensues? The deaths then will dwarf anything that the virus itself brings on, including many a suicide. Will people endure it as resolutely as they did 90 years ago? I wouldn’t hold my breath, not with the belligerence and non-cooperation that defines the overall culture today. And wouldn’t that be a decisive verdict to the facades men have erected? The worldwide financial bedrock, that everyone depends on and have taken for granted will endure no matter what—dissolving so easily in the face of what might well be an overreaction to a virus only two or three times more nasty than the regular flu—bad, to be sure, but not nearly as bad as the devastation triggered in the all-out war to contain it, a war that leaders can only hope will be won but do not know. As that mighty structure crumbles, who knows what efforts nations may go to in their desire to shore it up?

Then all these ones on the outside lambasting the Witness organization every time one of them so much as farts may begin to feel less comfortable. For the Witness brotherhood appears to be holding up pretty well, and it is holding up well independent of material assets. If worse comes to worse, you can run the whole program from a server in Brother Lett’s dorm room. It might even be that conditions could devolve to Acts 2 mode, in which Christians are physically caring for the needs of others. If you have kept yourself plugged into the brotherhood that, with all its flaws, is one run on love, you will be able to weather whatever shaking of the world is going on. Those who have put themselves outside it and are united in nothing other than their finding fault—of them I am not so sure.

A speaker quoted from Numbers 12 recently. “Face to face I speak with [Moses], and not in riddles. Why then, did you not fear to speak against him?” Yes, I know, I know—those taking the lead today are not Moses, but I am not so unfearful to declare they are not filling exactly the modern role that he did the ancient. Yes, they are not Moses, but then Moses was not Moses in the eyes of his critics. What were they murmuring about? His Hittite wives. He really did have Hittite wives. It was not an invalid complaint. God accepted him anyway and struck down those who would rise up against him.

I can easily extrapolate, based on the snarling hate expressed by some here for the theocratic organization, and current events showing that opposition shifting into high gear, most notably in Russia—I can envision that attack on the city ‘existing without bars’ and ‘the city that seems open to plunder’—I can easily envision it—not as a slam-dunk gonna-happen-now, but certainly as a possibility. Will religions in general hold onto their own as JWs hold on to theirs? Time will time, but I’m dubious. How many will so easily switch to new methods of keeping in touch? How many are so organized into not just congregations, but groups within congregations, so that no one other than those who willfully keep their distance is overlooked?

Revelation presents scenarios of people ‘warring against God’ and one can’t help but wonder: ‘Who would be stupid enough to do that?’ Now some scenarios emerge. ‘Do not meddle with these men so that you may not be found actually fighters against God,’ Gamaliel said. It was enough to dissuade the Sanhedrin. ‘Forget that!’ enemies say today as they go in for what they imagine is the kill.

The view of the humanists is that human solutions must prevail, and they are livid that any would look to another source. They are livid that any would put their trust in anything else. They attack and put the most ridiculous interpretation on Letts’ words about what doesn’t bother him at all, because they can’t stand what he looks to for salvation. To one of these yo-yos ranting about how he uses calamity to ‘exploit’ members with fear so as to keep them in line, I said that ‘the entire premise of the faith is that we are living in the last days of this system of things in which difficult times will prevail. To point to evidence of that does not frighten them; it strengthens them—it validates their faith.’

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15 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

For the longest time we have said our preaching will end someday. What if this turns out to be it?

Preaching of JW are based on, primarily, this: as much worst condition in the world are, the end is nearer. This is win situation for WT. If "preaching" stopped than end is here. If preaching not stopped than this means you have to save more people. If "preaching" stopped but nothing happen than you can wait to hear "clarification". JW will never lose their spirituality and hope, because humankind will continue in this state for very long time, unfortunately.  

16 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes, I know, I know—those taking the lead today are not Moses,

It is good to remind on factual records of Israel history. With or/and without Moses, people of Israel lived and died not too much different than any other nation in history.

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I think If I had been in that great crowd of people with Moses, wandering around in the desert for 40 years .... and after passing the same landscape every 2-1/2 years, over and over and over ...and burying my grandparents, and then parents, and possibly some children in the desert sands,  I would have seriously considered taking my family and heading North.

....especially if I understood that once we reached the promised land, my sons would have to fight and probably die to seize it from the people already there.

....just sayin' .

.... and then, in the quiet of the night, I wonder why all the lands around Israel have abundant oil .... except Israel.

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53 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

.... and then, in the quiet of the night, I wonder why all the lands around Israel have abundant oil .... except Israel.

... perhaps they had economists and environmental non-governmental organizations  who worked against fossil fuels and advocated for green technology :))

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Meanwhile here in the UK, Boris the PM has just announced a sort of 'lock down' on all of us.  As of tonight we are basically grounded. Not a strong enough 'lock down' in my opinion but then modern day UK PMs are never strong enough to get a job done. 

Meanwhile I notice that TTH is more concerned about money than human sufferings. And as for the CCJW still pumping out their 'talks' etc, so what ?  Lies are lies and deceit is still deceit whether by word of mouth live, or by relayed internet or other tech'.  Makes no difference if you are all still singing to the same tune, if the song does not serve God. 

@JW Insider I think you totally avoided what i said to waffle on about other things. Why even bother to quote me if you don't actually want to answer what i asked ? 

You did make it quite clear though that the CCJW is built on a crumbling foundation. In fact the CCJW is built on a foundation of lies and deceit. For you to say it does not matter now, well that is your opinion of course.  It only does not matter to new members that never knew the previous lies and misused scriptures. 

I'll repeat @Srecko Sostar 

It can be so for new and coming generations of JW members ( younger in age and who are not so long time in organization). Older members try/tried to cope with issue and found few methods how to deal with wrong faith doctrine. 

More serious "problem" not gone, and will stay "forever". To give and show trust in GB leaders, because Jesus also trust GB. :)) 

Thank you Srecko, very true words. 

@JW Insider  Your list of 4 points proves very clearly that your GB are not the 'Faithful and Discreet Slave'. 

You have proven by your own words how wicked they are. 

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40 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Everything is a matter of personal opinion ONLY ... unless it can be backed up by hard facts that can be independently verified.

Facts are nice, but they are overrated. They are downright dangerous things in the hands of some, who handle them as deftly as a surgeon with a jackhammer.

Facts mean little in themselves. It’s how you put them together that counts. That’s why the Bible lays relatively little emphasis on the head and instead lays it on the heart.

The heart determines what it wants and then entrusts the head to devise a convincing rationale for it, giving the appearance that it is the head running the show. But it is the heart all along.

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