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[Srecko Sostar]

5 minutes ago, Arauna said:

You are the one who mentioned that people cannot drink a beer together etc. It is so harsh... well this is why I used the example of a child being put in time-out.  If you are in time-out... take the discipline of Jehovah and start to serve him again. Do not let your pride get the better of you.

Thanks for your good intentions about me, but i ask, kindly request you again, to read my "questionable" comments, more carefully.  

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@JW Insider  You seem to be deliberately missing the whole point. 

The GB deliberately use these Lawyers.  I don't know if these Lawyers are actually part of the CCJW / Watchtower Soc, but that matters not. The GB knows exactly what it is doing by employing these lawyers. 

Whereas Jesus said, recorded at  Matthew 5 

³⁸  “You heard that it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ ³⁹  However, I say to you: Do not resist the one who is wicked, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him. ⁴⁰  And if a person wants to take you to court and get possession of your inner garment, let him also have your outer garment; ⁴¹  and if someone in authority compels you into service for a mile, go with him two miles. ⁴²  Give to the one asking you, and do not turn away from one who wants to borrow from you.

So now, would you like to continue to follow the dishonest GB, or would you prefer to follow Jesus and serve God properly. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

13 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I notice you are getting picky on silly acronyms - where I come from we do not use them but in USA they are popular... so I use them on this forum.   God is only a title..... so do not pick a fight on silly things to get away from being exposed.

Um, even Jehovah didn't get a capital letter. And how to you think I am 'being exposed' ? You are such a strange lady. 

[Arauna]

9 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Jehovah didn't get a capital letter

Jehovah will forgive the finger slip.... obviously you NOT.  Nitpicking is your forte.

[Srecko Sostar]

45 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The case with Gnam above is not nearly as serious as others, even compared to examples of other Watchtower lawyers in the U.S. But I don't condone such dishonesty, even in small amounts. In my opinion Mr. David Gnam is dishonest here, and therefore a wrongdoer, and very likely an unrepentant wrongdoer. I don't think he should be disbarred, but he should not be used by the Watchtower Society in any way unless he is ready to be honest.

I haven't any information, knowledge or assumption are dishonesty of WT lawyers known to those who arrange their services before Court process. But, WTJWorg people, individuals who hired lawyers, they are certainly well acquainted with the main elements that their lawyer will use as a defense. Because of this premonition, the responsible people in the WT who deal with legal matters have a great responsibility. 

But because of the frequent practice of WT lawyers to deceive, present half-truths and obscure reality, I think that such JW individuals who hire lawyers (JW lawyers and non-JW lawyers) belong to the same described group from your comment..... And all that is possible with donated money, money that comes from various JW members, from old/young and not wealthy, from children. How sad. How very sad!

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I notice you are getting picky on silly acronyms - where I come from we do not use them but in USA they are popular... so I use them on this forum.   God is only a title..... so do not pick a fight on silly things to get away from being exposed.

You know—he is right! Gasp! You are tipping your hand with capitalization of the letters!!!

Well, you won’t get away with it on my watch! From now on, you are merely uncapped ‘arauna’ in my book. (Relax—uncapped beats unhinged) In fact, in view of your disrespect, I may drop the first letter altogether, Ruana. That ought to teach you a lesson!

[JW Insider]

47 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But because of the frequent practice of WT lawyers to deceive, present half-truths and obscure reality, I think that such JW individuals who hire lawyers (JW lawyers and non-JW lawyers) belong to the same described group from your comment..... And all that is possible with donated money, money that comes from various JW members, from old/young and not wealthy, from children. How sad. How very sad!

Yes. I think this is implied. It's a very imperfect world, and sometimes the world rubs off on us.

But this does not mean that all of the arguments made by WTS lawyers in defense of the WTS are false. I think this is what some non-Witnesses (especially, ex-Witnesses) are anxious to believe. What's shouldn't be lost here, is that many of the points that WTS lawyers make in cases about child abuse are actually quite true. For example:

• The Watchtower Society/Organization is not responsible for the criminal and sinful actions of its members. Many of the arguments made in court that people complain about are merely trying to mitigate liability that was not the liability of the WTS in the first place. In many cases the victim goes after the WTS because that is the only place they can get financial redress.
• The primary criminal party is the perpetrator. There are times when the local elders are the ones showing negligence in after-the-fact investigations, trying to protect the reputation of the congregation or certain members of it. The liability, in this case should be on those elders. Only when following improper instructions from the WTS, should the WTS be partially liable. And even here, the local elders should understand their own personal responsibility if a process seems unconscionable.
• Much has been made of members of the judicial committees destroying notes made during the "investigation" process, as if this is all about a cover-up. Yet, destroying extraneous notes is (and often should be) common practice in organizations of all types, so that the findings are highlighted, not the messy process. If someone believes all elders are evil, they will think that the "official" version, which is never destroyed, is always a cover-up. But this view says more about the person imputing the wrong motives, and shows that they have not understood the typical investigation process.
• Watchtower disciplinary policy in congregations is not to be confused with Caesar's discipline.
  • There are things the WTS should have done better to reduce the repetition of such crimes by perpetrators, but very little can be done about the original crime. There were things about the process in judging such matters that needed improvements too. More recently these "after-the-fact" matters and processes were handled and revised about as well as can be expected.

Anyway, I only went off topic here to show that it's too easy to claim that WTS defense attorneys are constantly being dishonest. In most cases they are just using the law to protect the financial interests of the client. It's more of a negotiation, and they have to be careful what words they use. But there are also times when the "twisted" words of some attorneys shows that the WTS itself wishes it could hide some practices from the world. But if these practices are right, such as "shunning," then we should be proud to be upholding righteous counsel from the Bible. If upholding righteous counsel from the Bible makes us liable before the world, we should be proud to accept the consequences. Lying about it, or twisting words about it, makes it obvious that we are ashamed to uphold God's word in the way that we do.

This is quite separate from child abuse cases, which have also sometimes included dishonesty by both defense attorneys and attorneys for victims. But when Geoffrey Jackson argues that we don't believe that Proverbs referred to a physical rod for disciplining children, or when a Witness child custody attorney argues that our summer conventions were really more about vacation fun than spiritual education, or when . . . .

I won't turn it into an itemized list for opposers, but these things have already been commented upon elsewhere.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

but these things have already been commented upon elsewhere.

You are just trying to kill off 4Jah with cognitive dissonance and I do not approve. You know very well that he will wildly cheer one statement, turn furious at the next, and laugh hysterically at the one thereafter—and that the strain will cause him to drop dead.

Such attempted manipulation ought not be allowed. I am forwarding a note to the elders who run this forum to ban you from it.

It really is the case that in the last days people will be saying what is bad is good and vice versa. It is not only you. I just called out Arauna for trying to kill him too, by playing with matters of capitalization. Really, everyone is going awry here—all the true prophets have been killed off and it is only I that remains—yes, only I.

[Witness]

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

Hebrews 12: “My son, do not belittle the discipline from Jehovah, nor give up when you are corrected by him; ⁶  for those whom Jehovah loves he disciplines, in fact, scourges everyone whom he receives as a son.”  ⁷  You need to endure as part of your discipline.God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?" 

Most JWs know there is consequences to a pattern of dangerous spiritual behavior.  They KNOW the consequences but are not prepared to take the time-out. 

 

 ^“For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. ⁴ You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. ⁵ And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
⁶ For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

⁷ Ifyou endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? ⁸ But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.”

There are two words used, “scourge” and “chasten”.

“Scourge” – “flog, literally and figuratively”; metaphorically, of God as a father chastising and training men as children by afflictions.

“Chasten” – “learn, teach, instruct, educate”

The writer of Hebrews includes everyone whom he was speaking to as receiving a “chastening” from God.  Jesus also was chastened – he continually resisted sin which led to his obedience and he is our example of what would happen to us for following in his footsteps.   Yes, he proved his obedience through the “scourging” he received.  In his case it was both physical and figurative. He was not disciplined in this manner because he sinned!  He was submitted to this type of “scourging, chastening” by God who allowed it, since Satan has asked to “sift” each one of us, as “wheat”.  Satan didn’t let up in his “scourging” until the moment Jesus died.  Luke 22:31

“Although he was the Son, he learned obedience from what he suffered. 9 After he was perfected, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him”  Heb 5:8,9

“For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in every way as we are, yet without sin.”   Heb 4:15

Are those in the WT immune to THIS type of discipline?  The GB certainly is.  How contradictive it is to shun an individual who may have developed a smoking habit, yet ignore a full-fledged lie spoken by your leaders as an error in direction.  How insane it is for JWs to shut their eyes to the cover of the Awake magazine showing the generation of 1914 “that will not pass away”, when they actually did pass away.  If a JW is caught in a lie several times, wouldn’t he be disfellowshipped? 

 To say that disfellowshipping fulfills the scripture is only partially true.  God has always disciplined His people by allowing Satan to step in and deceive, or use direct attacks against them; while God removes his protection of His people who had sinned.  We have account after account of this type of discipline in the Bible.  ONLY those who recognize what they had done to cause their suffering, turn back to God. Anyone else, like the GB seem very content in living with their sin, and most JWs accept it whole-heartedly.  Should we tolerate a leadership that uses shunning as a discipline for sin while their own sins have “reached to heaven”? (Jer 23:16; Rev 18:4-8)  How long would you allow your older child to speak lies as truth, without “chastising” them?  Who will scourge the GB?  God will.  (Rev 17:15-18)

To suffer as Christ suffered, we experience “scourging” at the hands of our own people, just as he did.  (John 15:20)  Disfellowshipping is a spiritual “death”. (John 16:2; Rev 13:15) That act alone by men who are sinners themselves, is blasphemy.   If it is caused because we awake to our sins and choose to obey God and Christ’s teachings and not those of men, it is for our benefit; and shows our desire to repent and resist sinning against God. We then "endure hostility from sinners" - those who judge us without authority by God to do so.  (Matt 7:1,2)  The organization is Satan’s last threshing tool of deceit to come upon those in Christ.  (Matt 10:16-23; Rev 12:4,15) 

The word “scarlet” in the Bible refers to the sins attributed to God’s people, for deviating from His guidance and decrees. (Jer 4:30,31; Isa 1:18)  During these times, foreign armies would rule over and kill many in Israel.  God withdrew His protection from them.   They commonly set up idols and merged them into their worship of God. In the “Isaiah’s Prophesy”, book II, a note is made under an illustration saying,

“The Jews had a tendency to attribute Jehovah’s acts to idols.”

Well, today’s spiritual “Jews”, God’s holy priesthood (Isa 43:10; 1 Pet 2:5-10) has done the same thing at the suggestion of a corrupt “Jewish” leadership. (Rev 8:13:11,12) The organization is your idol that is attributed as the outlet of God’s acts.  Although a minority of JWs suffer in Russia, it doesn’t involve all of the anointed “Israel”.  THEY are already under a “scourge” at the direction of modern-day Pharisees.  The elder body “Gentile” army, and heart of the organization, has been given the authority to spiritually “kill” any who resist the teachings of the GB, and the idol itself.  It has been given authority to silence Christ’s members of his body through the use of lies and blasphemy.  (Rev 13:5-8)  It has been given the authority to replace God's holy priesthood.  (2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1-3)

It is not the sins of the world God is addressing in Revelation, but the sins “like scarlet” of His people under covenant. 

 

“So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. ⁴ The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of ^[b]her fornication. ⁵ And on her forehead a name was written:

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.

⁶ I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.”  Rev 17:3-6

 

 

https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/09/scarlet-colored-discipline-followed-by.html

 

 

 

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

called out Arauna for trying to kill him to

Am I to be disciplined?  Oh no not  4jah - he is going to decapitatate me

[Witness]

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

They apply the laws of Jehovah in the way their own DESIRES dictate

How fitting this statement applies to the governing body.  

There is one mediator  between men and God, Jesus Christ.  1 Tim 2:5

“mediator”, according to the scriptures:  a medium of communication, arbitrator

“Arbitrator” - an independent person or body officially appointed to settle a dispute.

Who is the “arbitrator” in the organization?  The GB and their elder body. (Matt 24:48-51)

There is one Head of the anointed Body of Christ; one mediator. (Col 1:18)  No one has the right to tell Jesus’ anointed members not to BOND together, not to study the words/teachings of their Head, as one body.  (Eph 4:1-6) No one, should judge them for doing so as losing God’s Holy Spirit, through the judgment of those not anointed which leads to disfellowshipping. 

However, the large number of the priesthood allows it; out of fear, out of loss of family members, out of losing their own reputation before others.  They refuse to submit to the “chastising” and persecution for following God’s Son. (Matt 5:10-12) They have allowed “Gentiles” to over-run the Temple of God.  1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22; Rev 11:2,2; Rev 13:7

“This is what the Lord says:

“‘Your wound is incurable,
    your injury beyond healing.
¹³ There is no one to plead your cause,
    no remedy for your sore,
    no healing for you.
¹⁴ All your allies have forgotten you;
    they care nothing for you.
I have struck you as an enemy would
    and punished you as would the cruel,
because your guilt is so great
    and your sins so many.
¹⁵ Why do you cry out over your wound,
    your pain that has no cure?

Because of your great guilt and many sins
    I have done these things to you.

¹⁶ “‘But all who devour you will be devoured;
    all your enemies will go into exile.
Those who plunder you will be plundered;
    all who make spoil of you I will despoil.
¹⁷ But I will restore you to health
    and heal your wounds,’
declares the Lord,
‘because you are called an outcast,
    Zion for whom no one cares.’  Jer 30:12-17

 

“Zion” is restored outside of the organization; where members of God’s priesthood can BOND together.

Isa 2:1-5

 

 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

40 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Am I to be disciplined?  Oh no not  4jah - he is going to decapitatate me

There are two people here who I am not even sure are sane.