Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"

[Arauna]

@4Jah2me   genesis 3:15. This is the first prophecy in the bible and predicts enmity between the seed (Jesus), the seed's offspring and satans offspring.   It indicates that Jesus would be hurt in the heel but that satan's head would be crushed.  A crushed head is a symbol of everlasting destruction.

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Srecko, on your point of death never existing. I would think from the creation of animal life, that death existed. Animals dying naturally or being killed by other animals. Otherwise the earth would have become overpopulated with animals. And i think later Adam and Eve would have seen animal death so as to know what death was.

Universe is full of moments when "things" come to existence and after some time stop to exist. Stars are "dying" too. 

I don't know exactly what author of WT article meant when he wrote  death has never existed in heaven because if God created Universe as we know it today, death was always and is today and will be part of Creation and Universe, part of life. We can say how ... death was created, too. Death came into existence when "things" were created, from the moment they came into being.

[Arauna]

Since disobedience lto jehovah leads to death there was no death in heaven until satan turned against jehovah and lied to mislead Adam. Satan is the originator (father) of death. Thereafter angels disobeyed  jehovah.  They are deteriorating but will be put to second death by jehovah. 

[Srecko Sostar]

14 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Satan is the originator (father) of death.

I am not aware of such Bible verses. Perhaps "father of lie" and "murderer"?

[Anna]

One question I do have though. If death will be "destroyed" i.e. hurled into the lake of fire, does that mean death will no longer exist? It would seem like it. But we know that humans on earth will not be immortal, which means they could die. So how does one reconcile those opposing concepts?

[JW Insider]

18 minutes ago, Anna said:

One question I do have though. If death will be "destroyed" i.e. hurled into the lake of fire, does that mean death will no longer exist? It would seem like it.

I think we can look at it like this. According to Psalm 110, Jesus sits at Jehovah's right hand to rule in the midst of his enemies, and the various forms of death, such as from war, pestilence, famine, etc., are the primary enemies that Jesus rules in the midst of and ultimately 'put under his feet,' that is, conquered. So it's the "enemy death" that is conquered by finally destroying it permanently. If and when Jehovah uses "death" after the 1,000 years, it will be by his own hand, a cleansing, and will therefore be a "gift" to his people. The "sting" of the enemy, death, will be gone forever.

29 minutes ago, Anna said:

But we know that humans on earth will not be immortal, which means they could die. So how does one reconcile those opposing concepts?

That's another topic. How do we "know" that humans on earth (after they "come to life" when the 1,000 years are completed) will not be immortal?

[Arauna]

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

We can say how ... death was created, too

The bible calls Satan the father (originator) of murder …… murder is an action which leads to death. John 8:44.  He is called a murderer because he deceived Eve which led to her death.  Jehovah is only a god of life..... He never planned for any to die.  Satan originated death because no one died before Satan's act of rebellion or no other heavenly creature rebelled against Jehovah before Satan's rebellion.  Jehovah allows testing but Satan is the one who brings bad things upon us to tempt us.

James 1:13.  New international version :  ¹³When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

6 hours ago, Anna said:

does one reconcile those opposing concepts?

Since all humans will be tested at the end of the 1000 years - as "perfect" humans just as Adam was tested.  Those who remain faithful will have proven as perfect people that they are similar to  Jesus - loyal to Jehovah and his laws.  They will get to eat of the "tree of life".  The tree that was also in the garden of Eden.  

To add to Sreckos thoughts: Yes, adam knew what is was to return to dust because animals did die.  They were not created to live forever.  The bible says that Jehovah put it in the hearts of man to want to live forever.  Although animals instinctively protect their life and look after their young and even put away food for the future - they do not think as humans do about living in future.  Humans can picture a future in their mind.  Humans are also moral individuals - animals are not.... there is more one can say about this but I hope you get the picture.  Ecclesiastes 3:11English Standard Version (ESV) 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.

[Arauna]

1john 3: The one who practices sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil.

All the results of satan's activities will be removed forever - which includes death.

 

Genesis 3:22 'Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad.+ Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life+ and eat and live forever,*—” 

The test at end of 1000 years will truly test human's loyalty as perfect individuals - a second test will not be needed to know that they will remain loyal to Jehovah. Jehovah will provide everything needed to sustain their life forever. However, they will never have their own source of life - something which Jesus and 144000 is granted. immortality and incorruptibility.

[Anna]

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

How do we "know" that humans on earth (after they "come to life" when the 1,000 years are completed) will not be immortal?

Good question. I guess we both know that WT teaches that only those resurrected to heaven will have immortality. It teaches that Jesus was not initially immortal when he was created, and neither were the angels. In fact nothing that Jehovah created seemed to have been immortal. Which begs the question, what was Jehovah's purpose with regard to that? If humans hadn't sinned, and Jesus hadn't needed to give his life as a ransom, would he still be mortal? He only became immortal as a "reward" for his obedience. So perhaps that means that if Adam & Eve had passed the test, they could also have been given immortality (as a reward)? So it is reasonable to say that after mankind passes the final test Jehovah might give them immorality as a reward. Possibly that could have been his purpose for Adam & Eve*. I'm just shooting from the hip here without any scriptural references

We are assuming that in the future all of Jehovah's perfect creatures will NEVER sin and ALWAYS do the right thing. But what IF one of them doesn't? After all, Satan and the Demons were once perfect. So if they are immortal they will not be able to be destroyed, but Jehovah could exile them somewhere. But that gets into the realms of fairy tales. A Pandora's box kind of thing. But it's possible...Again, I have not looked for any scriptural backing for that theory. The only thing I can think of is the symbolic prison and spiritual darkness of Tartarus. But that begins sounding like the concept of "Hell".....

And sorry, yes, that's another topic 😄

* But then what about their children? Would they inherit immortality from their parents? That's doesn't sound right..

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah is only a god of life..... He never planned for any to die.

 

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Yes, adam knew what is was to return to dust because animals did die.  They were not created to live forever.

------------------------------------------------------

Next issue:

39 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The test at end of 1000 years will truly test human's loyalty as perfect individuals

As i mentioned before, about testing, we have interesting Bible report. About testing human. One test was in Garden with Tree, Adam and Eve. Next testing, according to WTJWorg is at the end of Jesus Kingdom. 

Here we have 2 Divine Testing and only humans are included. Nothing about "spiritual beings". But as Bible said rebellion started with angels, not human. Well, is "perfection" of human Adam and Eve, and "perfection" of people at the end of 1000 years "smaller" than "perfection" of angels which have never been tested and never will, because Bible said nothing about it?   

7 hours ago, Anna said:

One question I do have though. If death will be "destroyed" i.e. hurled into the lake of fire, does that mean death will no longer exist? 

As JWI said, we can see how there are several causes of death that we (humans) experienced. Perhaps those sort of "deaths" will be "destroyed". 

[Anna]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah will provide everything needed to sustain their life forever. However, they will never have their own source of life - something which Jesus and 144000 is granted. immortality and incorruptibility.

Yes, that's how I understand it too.

[Arauna]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

One test was in Garden with Tree, Adam and Eve.

Only adam and eve were tested as perfect beings. We all will be tested at the end of the thousand years as perfect beings. … 

 

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

here are several causes of death

Large scale death as result of inherited sin will never ever happen again... ever... and the causes of these deaths as well.  The hypothesis arises that if a person in 10 billion years time does as Satan has done.... (although the chances are slim as all will have been tested as perfect sons at end of 1000 years, and perfect people really have to think a lot about being renegade to put deeds into action) Jehovah will have a legal precedent to just remove them. Death is the penalty for sin. Jehovah legally has proven that no one can rule or be rebellious against him without bringing dire consequences to everyone around them. Jehovah may revoke the person's right to life.

The fact that people die from SIN in this system due to inheritance from Adam - this will never ever happen again. Never ever will Jehovah allow a universal court case to settle the issues (which is now ongoing) to prove that independence from him does not work. The suffering of humans now will never ever happen again.