Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"

[JW Insider]

31 minutes ago, Arauna said:

They suffered terribly as Tom said... especially in war time.

Even in peacetime. My town did a heavy spray for mosquitoes a couple years ago, and estimated that hundreds of thousands of mosquitoes died. We probably won't find out for 15 years how it affected humans.

[Srecko Sostar]

6 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Even in peacetime. My town did a heavy spray for mosquitoes a couple years ago, and estimated that hundreds of thousands of mosquitoes died. We probably won't find out for 15 years how it affected humans.

I am signing a lot, many petitions on Lady Freethinker page. Humans are brutal. Disgustingly brutal!! 

https://ladyfreethinker.org/sign-justice-for-kitten-stolen-from-porch-and-drenched-in-poisonous-bug-spray/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email

[JW Insider]

43 minutes ago, Arauna said:

living forever in obedience to Jehovah and immortality is not the same.

This is correct. Those two concepts can be very different, although as @Anna has pointed out, in both cases one lives forever. And in both cases, Jehovah has the final say about the "rules" of immortality. The main point was that there is no scripture that says the "other sheep" will not also have that same immortality as the other sheep who will have heavenly bodies. There is one faith, one hope, one baptism.

[Arauna]

14 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

heavy spray for mosquitoes a couple years ago,

They recently let loose genetically engineered mosquitos in florida… because they carry west Nile virus etc. … it is really troubling how scientists  are playing at being god and just genetically engineer what they want. any animal that eats mosquitoes will have adverse effects.  Monarch also died like flies when their food source was genetically engineered.

[Arauna]

5 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

says the "other sheep" will not also have that same immortality

I hope so - but if not, I am content to obey and live forever.... 

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

It will really be a stupid person that will rebel again... but at end of 1000 years some will choose to. 

I think all one need do is extrapolate from present trends, or from those in Moses’ time. They will not be rebelling in their own eyes. They will be ones pointing out that the guardrails are hemming them in from doing all of which humans are capable. They may be ones pointing out that certain individuals have lost their way. Maybe there will be reformers. To say that there will be whistleblowers might be going too far—after all, are speaking of paradise—but as Srecko points out, “humans are brutal.” Who knows what sort of rationalizations they may dream up in pursuit of what they want? Humans have proved resourceful in that regard.

[Anna]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

My town did a heavy spray for mosquitoes 

Not sure if you were being funny as this was a reply to animal mistreatment. That's one mistreatment I would happily support though after being bitten about 20 times on each ankle while standing in a field trying to spot Neowise the other night. That's all I got from that night, swollen itching ankles and no sighting because the northwestern sky developed a haze just after sundown.

Of course I am not really being serious as any kind of chemical interference on insects can have bad effects on other life. I suppose spraying myself would be less selfish. My fault, I left the bug spray at home...

[Anna]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The main point was that there is no scripture that says the "other sheep" will not also have that same immortality as the other sheep who will have heavenly bodies. There is one faith, one hope, one baptism.

(In bold) that's what I figured after you brought that question up. 

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

but we should always be careful to distinguish interpretation imposed from the Bible and interpretation imposed on the Bible.

Exactly

 

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Jehovah has the final say about the "rules" of immortality.

 

 

[Witness]

On 7/18/2020 at 11:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Apologize for late reaction.

My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

I didn't put your whole comment here, but am considering all of it...or most of it, at least!

Well, we have no idea what happened “in heaven” before the record we have in Genesis.  We only  have have the account of creation and Prov 8:22-31.  Jesus Christ is the “tree of life” whose fruit has always imparted truth, beginning with Adam and Eve in the garden.  (Rev 2:7;22:2,14)  Satan, is the symbolic “tree of knowledge”.  At what point Satan rebelled against God, who knows, but we do know that God thoroughly warned Adam and Eve about him, about his teachings that would lead to death. (Gen 3:3)  I don’t believe God “tested” Adam and Eve, but gave them free will, to choose life and not death, as he did with Satan and the demons.  (James 1:13-17) 

Satan already had access to truth, to the living water of God. (Prov 14:27; John 4:10) I can’t see that he was tested with another source of "waters", but chose to abandon God, to fulfill his own lusts and selfish intentions, which will lead to his desctruction.  God created life which imparts freedom.  Satan used that freedom to fearlessly abandon the source of life, giving him the "key" to destruction and death.   (Prov 27:20;Rev 9:1,11)

Satan of the spirit realm or “heavens”, will be destroyed, so death will occur in “heaven”.  Arauna brought out a good scripture in Gen 3:15. 

With that is,

 Ps 74:14 – “you crushed the heads of Leviathan; you fed him to the creatures of the desert.”

Isa 27:1 – “On that day the LORD with his relentless, large, strong sword will bring judgment on Leviathan, the fleeing serpent -- Leviathan, the twisting serpent. He will slay the monster that is in the sea.” 

Isa 33:1 – “Woe, you destroyer never destroyed, you traitor never betrayed! When you have finished destroying, you will be destroyed. When you have finished betraying, they will betray you.”

 

Other than what we view when looking up at the sky and call it, the heavens, there is a spiritual heaven that I don’t believe is a place, but a spiritual existence or state.  An anointed one (“born again” 1 Pet 1:23) can be both “heavenly” and “earthly”.

 “Heavenly” as part of the New Covenant  (Gal 6:26; Heb 12:22; Eph 2:6; Luke 10:20),

…as the dwelling of God’s spirit (1 Cor 3:16; 1 Thess 4:8)

 …“earthly” as God’s owned land/home/field. (Jer 25:30; Acts 7:49; 1 Cor 3:9; Luke 8:15)

…as well as “heavenly and earthly” as a new creation – both human and spirit. (2 Cor 5:17)

They are spiritually under the authority of Christ – Matt 28:18

  So, when it says..

“By the same word, the present heavens and earth are stored up for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.   But based on his promise, we wait for new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.”  2 Pet 3:7,13

…the “new heavens” and “new earth”  will be cleansed of all unrighteousness; which mean only those who are found with a “righteous” heart (both anointed - heavenly/earthly” - and those not anointed living on the earth, will receive eternal life. 

The WT leaders can only see things literally.  They are blind to the deeper spiritual understanding of heaven.  They have to literally envision thrones where a literal 144,000 are seated without taking into account that Jesus said, “the kingdom of God is within you” – within the heart of fertile ground.  Luke 17:21

 

 

 

 

https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2018/02/heavens-earth-sea-authority-of-christ.html

 

 

[Anna]

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't think it's worth speculating that any will actually rebel, especially after the 1,000 years settles the great legal case against Satan, and will have proven the stupidity and fruitlessness of rebellion

it seems unbelievable to me too, but don't the scriptures warn that in the final test after the thousand years many will turn? Or do you think that's a missaplied scripture? I like Tom's idea that they may not think they are actually rebelling and that they may think they are helping some who they think have lost their way. Maybe it will be some kind of presumptiousness on their part. Like when "whats his name" tried to prevent the ark of the covenant from falling...

[Anna]

6 minutes ago, Witness said:

The WT leaders can only see things literally.

I am sure WT knows that there are no literal thrones in heaven. But the Bible itself describes the heavenly arrangement using literal images known to humans. We know these are not literal either, and understand that these things were written this way in order to help humans better "visualize". So it's not WT's doing as you imply.

As for the Kingdom being a condition in the heart of an individual only, well there are too many scriptures that show that there will be some kind of "kingdom/government" call it what you want, with Jesus as the head as a tool to bring mankind on earth to perfection, and when accomplished Jesus will hand over the "Kingdom" back to his father. Again, the Bible is being very literal, but how things will actually be we can't really know I'm sure.

[Witness]

18 hours ago, Anna said:

One question I do have though. If death will be "destroyed" i.e. hurled into the lake of fire, does that mean death will no longer exist? It would seem like it. But we know that humans on earth will not be immortal, which means they could die. So how does one reconcile those opposing concepts?

 

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

That's another topic. How do we "know" that humans on earth (after they "come to life" when the 1,000 years are completed) will not be immortal?

I doubt my comment is welcome between the two of you, and I have not read the following comments since these, but JWI, if you believe Jesus began reigning in the first century, then why would his “kingdom of the son of his love” (Col 1:13) not be his kingdom of a thousand years? (Ps 110:1,2; 1 Cor 15:25)

  Once “death” has been destroyed, the Kingdom of God would usher in. (1 Cor 15:24,26) Jesus will have put all enemies under his feet over the last 2,000 years as the scriptures indicate.  That is the point of his symbolic thousand-year reign, which is a time of division and judgment.  

For a thousand years in Your sight
Are like yesterday when it is past,
And like a watch in the night.  Ps 90:4

Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning— 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!”  Mark 13:35,36

I see nothing in the scriptures that say Jesus will reign for a literal thousand years in peace, yet also call it a judgment period as the WT teaches.   How many judgments periods does there need to be? The Great Tribulation is already a test of magnified proportions that God's people must face.   I see nothing in the scriptures that says we must wait until we are physically and mentally perfect before we face another deception by Satan. This is doctrine of men.   We see plenty of examples of people in the scriptures who have already faced Satan and remained faithful to God.  Will Abraham be submitted to another deceptive test? Noah?  His family?  Moses?  The few faithful kings of Israel?  All faithful ones who left Babylon and remained faithful during their lifetime?  They all conquered “death” during their lifetime by receiving “living water” from God through His decrees.   Once they are resurrected, they will live, eternally, with no interruption by Satan, since the Destroyer who destroyed, would be gone.  (Isa 33:1; 1 Cor 15:26)

 ^“But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ³² ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” Matt 22:31,32

And if they are of the “living”, they would  hold onto this unfailing promise:

“By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. ⁹ By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. ¹⁰ For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 

All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 

Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him." Heb, chapter 11

 

How can one retain their faith in the Kingdom of God, where righteous will dwell, and still believe unrighteousness and destruction will be allowed to deceitfully come upon one, who already survived testing by Satan during their lifetime on this side of Armageddon? 

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; ²⁶ and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”  John 11:25,26

The "last enemy" death, is conquered by the individual before Armageddon, during their lifetime of believing in and obeying the teachings of Jesus Christ. 

The faithful anointed of Christ, have “passed over, from death to life” and will “never die”.  (1 Pet 1:23; John 1:13; James 1:18; 1 Pet 1:3; 1 John 3:9)  Throughout their lifetime, they must persist in that faithfulness and for the remnant, resist Satan’s deceptions. (Rom 12:6; James 2:17,24,26; Rev 13:7,10)

Those not anointed but are true believers in Christ are redeemed through the second resurrection.  All people who had obtained righteousness will “never die”. They will never have to face the possibility of death again, since death will be destroyed.

The promise of eternal life by Jesus Christ, is eternal to the one who believes and obeys HIS words and not man. 

We can be considered "dead" in the physical body if not believing and living by, the teachings of Jesus Christ.  

"Truly I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life"  John 5:24

 

Why would one desire to be in the Kingdom of God, yet also believe they may not live there eternally by a final test that would come through deceit? (Rev 20:7-10)  Only through demonic influence would a curve ball be thrown into a promise Jesus firmly held out to those who accept HIS doctrine of living eternally, which is the doctrine of God. (John 7:16)