Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah is only a god of life..... He never planned for any to die.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Yes, adam knew what is was to return to dust because animals did die.  They were not created to live forever.

I think it was clear that Arauna was referring to humans, not animals. Jehovah was the first to create beings that died, and they died before Satan could cause Eve and Adam to rebel.

1 hour ago, Anna said:

So it is reasonable to say that after mankind passes the final test Jehovah might give them immorality as a reward.

Are we back to discussing Furuli's book again? That's the way he spells immortality in at least one place, too.

Just to go off topic a bit more, the view on whether animals died prior to Adam has been pretty consistent. One of the reasons that some fundamentalists need to deny the age of dinosaurs is that they don't want them to have died until Adam sinned. We also used to insist that the animals prior to Adam didn't kill each other for food, going back to Russell, Rutherford, Franz, but this is not insisted upon anymore. Of course, Russell also believed that since animals were so much lower than humans that Jehovah could have used evolution to develop them into their specific kinds.

Going back only half as far as Russell we have a 1950 Watchtower that gives a good answer that's still consistent with current teachings, about how animals lived and died, and will be expected to live and die, even in the new system. (Also happens to cover that point about the kind of death that is destroyed in the lake of fire.)

*** w50 10/15 p. 399 Questions From Readers ***
● Revelation 21:4 says that in the new world there will be no more death. Does this mean that even animals will not die then?—M. I., New York.
This text does not mean that all death will be eliminated. Rebellious human creatures will die during Christ’s millennial reign, and those siding with Satan at the end of the thousand years will perish. (Isa. 65:17, 20; Rev. 20:7-10) True, Revelation 20:14 shows death destroyed and thereafter Revelation 21:4 says there will be no more death, but the death referred to is death due to inheritance from Adam. Men will not then degenerate and die because of Adam’s transgression, but at any future time Jehovah God could execute any willful rebel that would disrupt the peace of the new world. Hence Revelation 21:4 speaks only of the Adamic death of humans, and has no application to the animal realm.
As to whether animals will die in the new world we cannot be dogmatic. It appears that men will not kill them for food, nor will animals prey upon one another. In the new world Jehovah’s original purpose relative to food supplies will be realized, as stated to Adam and Eve: “See, I give you all the seed-bearing plants that are found all over the earth, and all the trees which have seed-bearing fruit; it shall be yours to eat. To all the wild beasts of the earth, to all the birds of the air, and to all the land reptiles, in which there is a living spirit, I give all the green plants for food.” (Gen. 1:29, 30, AT) If that outstanding carnivorous animal, the lion, is to “eat straw like the ox”, surely no others will be meat-eaters. (Isa. 11:6-9) Incidentally, this shows that Revelation 21:4 does not eliminate all death of organic life, for plants will die to become food for men and animals.
But merely that animals will not be used for food does not prove they will live forever. There is reason to believe they will die. Man’s disobedience in Eden did not bring death to animals—they had been living and dying and many forms becoming extinct for thousands of years before man’s creation. The new world will eliminate the effects of Adam’s disobedience, but that does not concern animal death. The status of the beast has remained unchanged since its creation—it lives out its life span and dies. At no time has it had set before it the prospect of eternal life.
Man’s position is different. Adam had hope of eternal life set before him, but that hope vanished when he failed to pass the test of obedience. Had he passed that test he doubtless would have eventually eaten of the “tree of life”. Through Adam all men lost the opportunity of eternal life, but through the ransoming work of Christ Jesus the opportunity is restored and men of good will may hope for eternal life in the new world. None of this concerns animals.
If a man is willfully wicked and scorns the ransom, he will never gain eternal life, though he lives for a few years now. He loses the better position of opportunity that is open for mankind, and drops into the same position as that of animals, a position that offers no opportunities of eternal life. Of such ones the inspired apostle Peter wrote: “But these men, like unreasoning animals born naturally to be caught and destroyed, will, in the things of which they are ignorant and speak abusively, even suffer destruction in their own course of destruction.”—2 Peter 2:12, NW.
If animals had opportunity for eternal life, why would these men who lose such opportunity be compared to them? There seems to be no Scriptural basis for arguing that animals will live forever in the new world, but rather that they will continue being born, maturing, bringing forth offspring, and dying. Argument to the contrary seems to be based largely on sentimental grounds.

 

[Arauna]

6 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

There seems to be no Scriptural basis for arguing that animals will live forever in the new world, b

Yes only humans have eternity in their hearts.  But at present the entire creation is suffering due to Adam's sin. Animals are abused etc.

Animals have been having babies and doing their thing for millennia - almost perfectly.  But when their mitochondria die - they die. Humans have added stress to the animals. To see genetic defects amongst them used to be rare but it is now becoming more and more prevalent due to pollution in the environment and other stressors.  Their environments are being destroyed by man and they are being used as a commodity - for medicine etc.

[Anna]

27 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Jehovah might give them immorality as a reward.

Are we back to discussing Furuli's book again? That's the way he spells immortality in at least one place,

Lol, yes, that's my way of trying to stay on topic. Seriously though, spellcheck is a pain on my phone. It does whatever. My fault for not noticing though. Perhaps that was Furuli's problem too....

[JW Insider]

2 minutes ago, Anna said:

Lol, yes, that's my way of trying to stay on topic.

I shouldn't have mentioned it. My fault for staying up until 2:45AM. Your time zone can't be that far off, either.

[Anna]

33 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Adam had hope of eternal life set before him, ............ eaten of the “tree of life

Well this is the difference between immortality and eternal life,  you live forever in both cases, but if you are immortal you cannot die, whereas eternal life can be cut short. Although that in itself is an oxymoron....

[Anna]

5 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I shouldn't have mentioned it. My fault for staying up until 2:45AM. Your time zone can't be that far off, either.

It's the same 😄. I'm a night owl, I guess you are too

[JW Insider]

(John 10:2-18) ² But the one who enters through the door is the shepherd of the sheep. ³ The doorkeeper opens to this one, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. ⁴ When he has brought all his own out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice. . . . . ⁹ I am the door; whoever enters through me will be saved, and that one will go in and out and find pasturage. ¹⁰ . . . I have come that they may have life and have it in abundance. ¹¹ I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders his life in behalf of the sheep. . . . ¹⁴ I am the fine shepherd. I know my sheep and my sheep know me, ¹⁵ just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I surrender my life in behalf of the sheep. ¹⁶ “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

12 hours ago, Anna said:

I guess we both know that WT teaches that only those resurrected to heaven will have immortality.

Sometimes we think of expressions like "life in abundance" or "life in themselves" as only applying to the "little flock." But there is nothing that specifically says that the other sheep do not also attain "life in abundance" or even "immortality." (And yes, I realize it is not a WT teaching that the other sheep may attain immortality.)

It has long been applied especially to the "other sheep."

*** w73 6/15 p. 380 A Way of Life Opened to Mankind ***
“Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life.”—John 4:14.  Does this everlasting life that Jesus gives mean that all who live everlastingly must go to heaven? By no means. For the prophecy at Revelation says of the crystal-clear water of the river of life: “The spirit and the bride keep on saying: ‘Come!’” Now, the bride is the Christian congregation of which Christ is husbandly Head. (Col. 1:18; Eph. 5:23; 2 Cor. 11:2) These who share heavenly life with Jesus Christ number 144,000 persons. (Rev. 14:1, 3) The ‘water of life’ is offered by the spirit and the bride to yet others. It therefore symbolizes God’s provision for earthly life, everlasting human life in perfection on an earth transformed into a paradise, suitable for perfect humans.

Paul speaks of the those who are changed in the "rapture" and those also resurrected to heavenly bodies as "immortal" and "incorruptible." But the "incorruptible" nature appears to refer to the type of body they have, not necessarily that they can never be destroyed if unfaithful.

(1 Corinthians 15:53-55) 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?”

And we already believe that "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the kingdom for the "other sheep" too, at least in the following sense:

(Galatians 6:8) 8 because the one sowing with a view to his flesh will reap corruption from his flesh, but the one sowing with a view to the spirit will reap everlasting life from the spirit.

I don't think it's worth speculating that any will actually rebel, especially after the 1,000 years settles the great legal case against Satan, and will have proven the stupidity and fruitlessness of rebellion. But my point is that there is no scripture that claims that the other sheep or great crowd will not have immortality and eternal life. Even those terms (eternal life and immortality) are not really distinguished in the Bible, only in our doctrine.

I see nothing wrong with our doctrine, and I think it makes sense, but we should always be careful to distinguish interpretation imposed from the Bible and interpretation imposed on the Bible.

[TrueTomHarley]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I shouldn't have mentioned it. My fault for staying up until 2:45AM. Your time zone can't be that far off, either.

For me, if I must stay up that late, the tree of life becomes the coffee bean tree.

[TrueTomHarley]

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

Their environments are being destroyed by man and they are being used as a commodity 

The older I get the more I think the day of reckoning will more heavily involve mistreatment of the animals. After all, it is a direct failure of the prime mission to care for the earth and what is on it. Instead, horses are pressed into war service. At least when innocent people die you can tell yourself that, though innocent, they were born into the offending (human) family and might later become warlike themselves, but horses...

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Man’s disobedience in Eden did not bring death to animals—they had been living and dying and many forms becoming extinct for thousands of years before man’s creation. The new world will eliminate the effects of Adam’s disobedience, but that does not concern animal death.

Out of detail did animals eat each other before Adam and Eve creation, or will they do it again in New World and after, it seems how this World living in two parallel reality. People got imperfection and living "imperfect life in imperfect World, after "sin". But animal continued to live as "perfect creatures" in own spiritual and literal "paradise" until now, but in dangerous from human.

[Arauna]

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't think it's worth speculating that any will actually rebel, especially after the 1,000 years settles the great legal case against Satan, and will have proven the stupidity and fruitlessness of rebellion.

It will really be a stupid person that will rebel again... but at end of 1000 years some will choose to. 

 

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Even those terms (eternal life and immortality) are not really distinguished in the Bible, only in our doctrine.

The fact that Satan and demons are going to die and Jesus did die after (we do not know how long he was with his father) being with his father - proves that living forever in obedience to Jehovah and immortality is not the same.  Jesus was not immortal... so there is a difference which one can meditate on.

[Arauna]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

animal continued to live as "perfect creatures" in own

They lived for the purpose that Jehovah created them for and adapted to wicked humans and still survived.  They suffered terribly as Tom said... especially in war time.

I think animals did not eat meat - (I do not believe all these fabricated stories of the T. Rex eating meat) but some animals may have been used to clean up the earth, eating carrion. But I think we will have to wait and see in the new system. Now it is only speculation.