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[Witness]

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

PS Your and WTJWorg extended interpretations are so similar with examples of Jew who want to be very strict and righteous about Law which forbade working on Sabbath.

Yes, the GB appear to be "strict and righteous" as the presumed "faithful and discreet slave".  

Jesus focused on the individual and that one’s spiritual health.  The GB/elder body appears to focus on the individual, (using scripture laced with WT doctrine)  and I believe there are sincere elders who really try to “adjust” a sinner; yet, ultimately, the underlying decision to be made, is not according to the spiritual health of the sinner, but the projected appearance of the organization itself.  So, shunning is established and the elders are finished with “readjusting”.   If they can’t make this person mold to the decrees of the organization, (which they must) that person is no longer an active “part” of the congregation, or as we know, an active “part” of his or her family.   

If the organization's decrees and ruler-ship are challenged, when one is "healed" of their spiritual blindness and can see Jesus Christ and the Father much more clearly, they are "cast" out - shunned.  It reminds me of the event in John chapter 9, and the blind man healed by Christ.  The Pharisees were furious that this man confronted them with their own spiritual blindness.

 The man answered and said to them, “Why, this is a marvelous thing, that you do not know where He is from; yet He has opened my eyes! ³¹ Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. ³² Since the world began it has been unheard of that anyone opened the eyes of one who was born blind. ³³ If this Man were not from God, He could do nothing.”

³⁴ They answered and said to him, “You were completely born in sins, and are you teaching us?” And they ^[f]cast him out.   John 9:30-34

 ^[f] "Excommunicated him" 

And today, how dare we come against the leadership of the organization and teach them about Jesus Christ!  

As we've mentioned in the past, elders who leave the WT, have many times expressed guilt for their decisions made in judicial committees, which are based on organizational rules.  Jesus was teaching “new wine”, which the WT refuses to embrace. (Matt 9:17)  Calling it God’s organization, when Jesus was the perfect “image” of God, and taught forgiveness and love, shows how little the GB “know” YHVH and Jesus Christ.  

 

 Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”

“You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” John 8:19

 

 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?  John 14:9

 

“The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.”  Col 1:15

 

 

 

 

https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/02/jehovahs-genuine-mountain.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @Arauna " Seen enough of your warped accusations and logic. As I said before - you feed off your hate somehow...which is not based on justice.  It is based on raw emotion of hate for everything to do with JWs, GB. "

I am sorry that you are so unwell and not able to understand English, and that you love making accusations against me, but that you hate that i make accusations against the GB or the CCJW. 

I have said many times that the CCJW does have some basic truthful foundations. However those truthful foundations were established many years ago and are only in agreement with what the Bible teaches. So the CCJW has not actually done anything marvelous in agreeing with God's written word. 

By reading what you say about me, I imagine you would have said similar to Jesus about how he spoke to the Pharisees. I only mention faults where faults exist, just as Jesus did.

As for 'groundhog day', the phrase means nothing to me, I'm not American so don't care to know what it is supposed to mean.  If you have something to tell me please use English phrases as examples not American ones. And yes I do have dislike for Americanism, their idea that collateral damage is a good excuse for people's suffering does not sit well with me. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

You are denying all the scriptures in the bible which refers to this.  So you are deliberately obtuse.  you are saying God is making an abnormal rule......You talk like an atheist. Why should I take you seriously when you do not take the bible seriously.  You say you accept the bible …… but only the parts you like.

I've asked to see these Scriptures quoted on here.  All those supposedly direct scriptures about Shunning. So come on lets see them. 

Show me a scripture which refers to a person of good Bible trained conscience  leaving an immoral organisation and why that person should be shunned, when it is not that person that has committed sin but the Leaders of that organisation and people in that organisation that has committed the sins........... I think @Witness said , it is us that should be shunning the CCJW and it's GB. But no, the GB make rules so that we cannot show proof to JWs exactly how perverted the CCJW really is. But my conscience is clear in that I make it known the best ways i can, to try to help people stay safe from Paedophiles and from the lies taught in the CCJW.  

[Arauna]

3 hours ago, Witness said:

I give you the benefit of the doubt, knowing you suffer from arthritis.

I am not bitter at all - just taking you on for accusing JWs of being hypocrites when you yourselves are standing behind the door. 

Yes my eyes are bad and my fingers are numb but I am still managing to write a book.... to walk around, enjoy the sun, to do field service and keep in touch with my loved ones.  What else do I need?  I am content.  Many people do not even know I have these problems because I am upbeat and I do not complain... and I look very healthy....  I just hate having to select the quotes on this forum because it takes a long time to select it.

  

[Arauna]

5 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

why that person should be shunned

What about the above scriptures quoted by Cesar do you not understand.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

32 minutes ago, Arauna said:

What about the above scriptures quoted by Cesar do you not understand.

Matthew 18:15-17 ¹⁵"If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. ¹⁶But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' ¹⁷If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Do you mean this one ? Well this scripture proves that your GB disobeys scripture.  Because your GB or previous leaders have imposed such secrecy into the procedure of disciplining.  The 'church' or congregation do not have any facts or details but are still expected to shun people, just on the say so of Elders / CO's decisions. 

NOW imagine if every Paedophile accusation had been told to the church, to the congregation as a whole. Then no one could have been accused of hiding Paedophiles in the congregations, AND no Paedophile would have had the opportunity to prey on more than one victim. 

So remember those words at Matthew 18 v 17  TELL IT TO THE CHURCH. 

Even though your GB decided to change that scripture to this :-

¹⁷  If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector

Whereas all the others say this :-

New International Version
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

English Standard Version
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Berean Study Bible
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Berean Literal Bible
And if he fails to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he fails to listen to even to the church, let him be to you as the pagan and the tax collector.

New American Standard Bible
"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

New King James Version
And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

King James Bible
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Do you understand now ? 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Yes my eyes are bad and my fingers are numb but I am still managing to write a book

It is good to write books.

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

As for 'groundhog day', the phrase means nothing to me, I'm not American so don't care to know

It is only the greatest Witness holiday in America, that’s all! And you choose to remain ignorant! Shame!

We throw huge bashes on that day. It commemorates how the little rodent (part of God’s glorious creation—nothing idolatrous about the day at all, so Witness needn’t quote all of Ezekiel in outrage over it) pops up out of his hole, and if he sees his shadow, it means 6 more weeks of winter—or maybe it is that if he doesn’t see his shadow, it means six more weeks of that.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

I'll repeat. TTH never has anything spiritual to say and very rarely anything sensible either. But it's good to know he is still alive and well. And it's nice to know the two of them have story telling in common, but hey, that's what JWs do isn't it, just make up stories.  

[Anna]

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The problem is that previously the shunning article was there if you went to the FAQ page https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/

Yes, it's definitely been moved. I've noticed things move quite frequently... 

[Srecko Sostar]

On 7/14/2020 at 5:37 AM, Witness said:

Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."  John 14:23

Apologize for late reaction.

My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

I found this interesting. Many Christian religions, including JW teaching (about 144000) how people will go to heaven and how other Bible verses (e.g. John 14:2,3; Philip 3:14; ) "prove" that idea. 

But in same chapter John wrote Jesus quote about different idea. Father and Jesus will come to them (on Earth) and make their home with them (on Earth).

-----------------------------------------------------------

While searching for Bible verses i found another intriguing claim on JWorg web:

The Bible teaches that under the rule of God’s Kingdom, “death will be no more.” (Revelation 21:3, 4) This promise must apply to the earth, since death has never existed in heaven. - https://www.jw.org/hr/biblijska-ucenja/pitanja/tko-ide-na-nebo/

Here we have idea that presents how: since death has never existed in heaven. On what arguments author is able to made such claim? What Bible text speaking for or against this claim?

With this way established thesis, author made another conclusion and claim: This promise must apply to the earth, ...

Well, i found interesting how "death" is moving from one place to another. According to WTJWorg doctrine, Before Adam and Eve death never existed no where in Universe. In time of Adam and Eve, idea of death came to be possible reality (but only for earthly people on Earth) because of "fruit issue". Devil and his demons were making rebellion against God before "fruit tree issue" and before Adam and Eve rebellion, but there is no Bible text that speaking how God made any warning to angels as "free will individuals" (same as human on Earth) that they will be sentenced to death if they try to go against God's will, too. Because there is no Bible text about such warning, WTJWorg author of articles came to conclusion how  death has never existed in heaven.

But it seems how things will be different and death will be reality for angels and "heaven". Because somehow God and Jesus will "kill/destroy" devil and his demons. And even more, quote in WTJWorg publication call for Revelation book: The Bible teaches that under the rule of God’s Kingdom, “death will be no more.”

Well, it seems, we shall have opposite situation in the future. "Death" will be removed from Earth to Heaven, on place where death has never existed. Sad days are expected for "Heaven". 

Another thing is also interesting: If God found appropriate to put test on first human with "fruit tree issue", is it possible that there is (or is not) a similar test for heavenly angels who came to existence by a same sort of creative act. Free will is free will, same for spirit and for flesh. Perfect or imperfect, you as free will individual can create problems. Bible reports said so.

If God decided to put "fruit tree issue" test on human only and nothing like that for angels, than some question coming. 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Very deep thinking @Srecko Sostar .   It raises the question, Can spirit persons be killed ?  Will the Devil and his Demons be killed or just restricted permanently ? Revelation 20 v 14 says 

New International Version
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
New Living Translation
Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death.

Now this is all symbolic of course. Death and the Grave cannot literally be thrown into the Lake of Fire, as the lake of fire isn't a real lake, and Death isn't an object which could be thrown. 

So, do we actually know if spirit persons can literally be killed ? 

English Standard Version
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Berean Study Bible
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

Now why would Revelation say that they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. ???

 

The Bible tells us that 'The dead are conscious of nothing at all'. But that is human dead it is referring to. 

 

I suppose one point about 'death in heaven' is that the Devil and his Demons have been cast down to the Earth. So they can no longer enter heaven. Now, do we know if ALL the Angels have been tested ? 

 

Another point is Do we know exactly when ALL the Angels were tested ? The CCJW presume it was 1914. 

 

Perhaps there are things which are none of our business. Perhaps we will never know the answers as those situations are between Almighty God / Christ and those Angels. 

 

Srecko, on your point of death never existing. I would think from the creation of animal life, that death existed. Animals dying naturally or being killed by other animals. Otherwise the earth would have become overpopulated with animals. And i think later Adam and Eve would have seen animal death so as to know what death was.