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[Arauna]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The shunning article was removed from the website

They may have put  it in writing a few places ……. However, I have never heard elders announce from the platform that someone was "shunned"  they always use the word "disfellowshipped".   That is the official term used.  This includes the meaning that a person can still come to meetings with restrictions if they accept the discipline.

To me this is a lot of nitpicking - because these accusers do NOT accept that the bible says. The bible is clear that we should have nothing to do with a repeat offender or share in his actions. No matter what terms are used for it.....   They therefore blacken the name of JWs  and thus thereby prove they are opposers of Jehovah's written word because this is a clear instruction from Jehovah to protect the congregation members from the "leaven" that can grow in a congregation. 

[Witness]

 

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

And these words do NOT exist in our vocabulary. We use a different word which indicates that the person can still associate but without the privileges they had before.. So what part of this is hypocritical?

What is that "different word"?  "Disfellowshipped"?  I think "shun/shunning" is more part of your (all JWs) vocabulary than you realize.

On 7/11/2020 at 10:01 PM, Arauna said:

I think we can refer to it in a modern word of our choice, which serves the purpose, as it embodies what the BIBLE tells us to do with rebellious people. We cannot use an old Greek word...... If you belong to a club you have to follow the rules of the club or you are shunned/disfellowshipped/ told not to come back. 

 

3 hours ago, Witness said:

Here, the word “shunned” is interchangeable with “disfellowshipped”:

"We do not automatically disfellowship someone who commits a serious sin. If, however, a baptized Witness makes a practice of breaking the Bible’s moral code and does not repent, he or she will be shunned or disfellowshipped. W 13/8/1

 

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

So what part of this is hypocritical?

 Good question!

My question is, why is there argument over the obvious?  Is there some sort of sub-conscience guilt about the act of disfellowshipping, by referring to it as "shunning"?  Is that why the lawyer had to hide the facts?  

But then, perhaps the lawyer thought his lie would be left unchallenged, and the GB also, as JWI pointed out the act of manipulating access to articles, to show complete support of the lawyer's words. 

However, this article entitled, "Can You Be True To God, Yet Hide The Facts?",  in the WT 74/1/15 p. 35-37, makes a good point:

 

“WHAT results when a lie is let go unchallenged? Does not silence help the lie to pass as truth, to have freer sway to influence many, perhaps to their serious harm?

If you are among those seeking to be faithful to God, the issues these questions raise are vital for you today. Why? Because God’s servants in every period of history have had to face up to the challenge these issues present. They have had to expose falsehood and wrongdoing and warn people of dangers and deception—not just in a general way, but in a specific way, in the interest of pure worship. It would have been far easier to keep silent or say only what people wanted to hear. But faithfulness to God and love of neighbor moved them to speak. They realized that “better is a revealed reproof than a concealed love.”—Prov. 27:5.

 

 

 

[Arauna]

4 hours ago, Witness said:

hat i "don't understand"  is, why l

What part of Jehovah's word do all of you NOT understand?  You profess to be Christians, but hate the word of God which instructs us to not eat or speak to those who are repeat offenders.  Cesar mentioned a few scriptures above.  I can add quite a few more....

So what do you have against these scriptures?  Instead you attack JWs because we OBEY  (not elders) but the WORD of God.  You follow your own desires and hate us because we OBEY..

So - who are the HYPOCRITS?   Those who profess the bible but do not obey its finer details?  ... or JWs who DO obey the finer details?  HMMMMMM...… 

 

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Instead you attack JWs because we OBEY  (not elders) but the WORD of God. 

Then we both should be called apostates.  

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

So - who are the HYPOCRITS?   Those who profess the bible but do not obey its finer details?  ... or JWs who DO obey the finer details?  HMMMMMM...… 

 

Disfellowshipping is an across-the-board condemnation for everything from smoking, celebrating Christmas, drunkenness, infidelity, fornication, murder, child abuse, rejection of the organization and the GB’s leadership, etc.  In ALL cases, shunning is expected.  But what do see, Arauna?  Partiality when it comes to child abuse, where the elders have hidden this sin from the congregations for years.  They have also hidden the perpetrator by allowing him into another congregation!   In many cases concerning this, who is disfellowshipped?  The victim, who is BLAMED for letting it happen!  And when he or she speaks against the failures of the elder body, that person is SHUNNED - disfellowshipped.

From my experience in the congregations, many elders were drunkards and that “finer detail” was ignored.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

So - who are the HYPOCRITS?

My oldest son moved into another state and became friends with two young men who were in the new congregation he joined.  They shared an apartment together.  One of these young men was an elder's son, who engaged in wild partying, fornication and drunkenness away from the eyes of his father and the congregation.  He maintained a good profile as a JW and received "privileges" because his father was an elder.  My son would call him on his actions when the boy would return home from partying, obviously drunk.  This added to the observation of hypocrisy that my son had perceived through hypocritical treatment of his family by the elder body, and he eventually left the organization.   When he moved away from there, he received a call from both of his previous roommates, saying that they would have to SHUN him for his choice. They were compelled to let him know this, even though he is not disfellowshipped.  He told the two-faced elder's son, "you know you don't believe in it either", and the boy told him he was right, but he loved the attention, friends and family too much to leave it.  He said it was an "easy" life.  

It is an easy life for him, because his conscience has been seared through the hypocrisy established in your organization.

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron."  1 Tim 4:1,2

 

 

"The Cost of Life" - https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-cost-of-life.html

 

 

 

[Witness]

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

The bible is clear that we should have nothing to do with a repeat offender or share in his actions. No matter what terms are used for it.....

Very true.  It is why many leave the organization.  They want nothing more to do with false doctrine.  They can use the word of God to verify their reason for leaving.   How can the GB, who repeatedly err in direction, predictions and doctrine, direct the judgment of another, as spiritually "dead"?  (Rev 13:15)

Was Harold Camping a false prophet?  Yep, but he apologized for misleading thousands with false predictions.  Is the GB a composite "false prophet"?  Yep, and they make silly excuses for misleading millions with false predictions. 

Which one is forgiven by God?  You will most like say, the GB, of course! 

But the cowards, faithless, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars—their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”  Rev 21:8

 

 

 

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

17 minutes ago, Witness said:

Is the GB a composite "false prophet"?  Yep, and they make silly excuses for misleading millions with false predictions. 

I think how GB silly excuses going in this way: "we are rowing", "we are not inspired", we can err", "sometimes brothers and sisters who reading publications are overzealous, "apostles had wrong expectations so sometimes JW's have had wrong expectations", etc. 

[Witness]

57 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I think how GB silly excuses going in this way: "we are rowing", "we are not inspired", we can err", "sometimes brothers and sisters who reading publications are overzealous, "apostles had wrong expectations so sometimes JW's have had wrong expectations", etc. 

Always blame-shifting. 

“What is Blame-Shifting? Escaping responsibility. . . Blame-shifting is an emotionally abusive behavior or tactic.

Blame-shifting or “blaming the victim” is a form of context switching and crazy making. When you are confronting them on something they did or attempting to set boundaries, they switch the whole focus back to you, and thus put you on the defensive. Now the focus is on you and they slither  (Isa 59:8) away. This gets you way off track and off balance right where they want you–derailed. Clever huh, unless you are on the receiving end of this crazy making.” 

And on a sadder level of this blameshifting, concerning child abuse:

In order to discredit a victim, an abuser will often blame the victim for their own actions, even going so far as to say the victim is in fact the one who committed the abuse. This may cause the victim to feel defeated or like they are losing their mind. In a particularly weakened state, the victim may even believe they are at fault. Abusers often claim friends, family, mental health professionals, church leaders or other authorities are in agreement with them, which has the effect of isolating the victim and preventing the victim from getting help.

Now the abuser has all the power and control over the victim and their relationship.  

Blame-shifting is a way to escape taking responsibility." 

 https://www.thehaguepsychologist.nl/what-is-blame-shifting-escaping-responsibility/

 

Wow, the entire organization is guilty of blameshifting in several ways, throughout its hierarchy.  I’ll bet there is a WT article about this… 

Indeed, there is: ‘You Must Be Holy Because I Am Holy’  Wt 96/8/1 pp 10-14

“Jesus clearly taught that what is in the heart will become evident by what a person says and does.” 

It quotes Matthew 12:34; 15:18-20.

“Holiness is not achieved by taking the line of least resistance or by being self-indulgent. That kind of person will always make excuses for his conduct and try to place the blame elsewhere. Perhaps we need to learn to become responsible for our actions and not be like some who allege that fate stacked the deck against them because of family background or genetics… (we are not inspired, we can err)

 The root of the matter lies in the heart of the individual. Does he or she love righteousness? yearn for holiness? desire God’s blessing? The psalmist made the need for holiness clear when he said: “Turn away from what is bad, and do what is good; seek to find peace, and pursue it.” The apostle Paul wrote: “Let your love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is wicked, cling to what is good.”—Psalm 34:14; 97:10; Romans 12:9.

 

Obviously, anyone who loves righteousness, yearns for holiness and desires God's blessing, has the valid right to "shun" the GB and the entire leadership for their hypocrisy and blameshifting.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

• Quote CC
• Matthew 18:15-17 ¹⁵"If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. ¹⁶But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' ¹⁷If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

But the CCJW don't follow this procedure. They do it all in secret. So no one in the congregation knows truth from lies. And when someone leaves of their own choice, the GB and Elders are too frightened to tell the congregation that someone actually chose to leave. 

Funnily enough Jesus chose Matthew and he was a Tax Collector. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

Typical, 4Jah did not like this sentence.  He just likes the JWs to carry the blame to fulfill his hate-ocd.  He is not really interested in justice.... the perpetrator can go free and the JWs must 'pay' the penalty...… that is HIS kind of justice... (capitals deliberate).  The typical unreasonable guy I would NOT like to have as a friend.

 

@Arauna  Um wow, you seem to  think you know my inner thoughts now.  You know what I'm interested in and what I'm not do you ? Once proven the Paedophiles in the CCJW should have been exposed immediately and disfellowshipped immediately. The whole congregation should have been told the names and so should people outside the congregations.  But no, they were kept hidden in the congregations. It's not my fault that you GB and Elders wanted to hide those Paedophiles inside the CCJW. And that the GB and their Lawyers are still hiding Paedophiles in the American part of the CCJW by not handing over that 20+ year Database containing ALL the names and details of the American Paedophiles in your Org. 

I would not like to be your friend either as you seem to like the Paedophiles being in the CCJW more than you love God.

And the hypocrites are you and the CCJW members that stand up for the GB in it's disgusting acts. And the point being proven on this topic is that the GB Lawyer deliberately PRETENDED / LIED  that SHUNNNING  was not practised within the CCJW.   

Another point is that if a person leaves the CCJW your GB and Elders are frightened to tell the congregation that fact. They deliberately hide the FACT that MANY JWs are chosing to LEAVE  the CCJW of their own choice, and they are leaving because of faults in the Org , not because they have faults in themselves. Your Organisation is corrupt, your GB are corrupt, your service to God is invalid. It is just a habit that you all continue to do because you do not know right from wrong. 

 

[Arauna]

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

seem to  think you know my inner thought

Seen enough of your warped accusations and logic. As I said before - you feed off your hate somehow...which is not based on justice.  It is based on raw emotion of hate for everything to do with JWs, GB.  Arguments that show both sides ( and there are people on this forum who are prepared to meet your arguments by validating some things you say, to try to think the way you do, in order to reason with you) these people do not touch your reasoning abilities at all. It is like Ground Hog Day (over and over) same old same old.... talking to you.

There is another person on here - same thing.  Over emotional - no sound biblical reasoning. Just triggered. triggered all the time …,,,, not using the bible  as a sound, logical, healthy disciplining tool (which I am prepared to listen to if arguments are based on reality) but as a self-righteous weapon to accuse, accuse, accuse...…… . It is really like ground hog day talking to you guys.  I have seen such good reasoning here on this forum and have learnt a lot myself.... but with you two - it is like a cul-de-sac - the pits. 

[Arauna]

8 hours ago, Witness said:

ngaged in wild partying, fornication and drunkenness away from the eyes

Fornication - if your son had proof of this - he himself was guilty as an accomplice -  because he did not let the elders know.  He knows the principles set out in the bible.... we learn that we should not tolerate wickedness amongst us.  We do not help to cover up a problem, or wrongdoing.  How many times did David not write in the Psalms that he does not sit with the wicked or tolerate their deeds.

So your own thinking is warped as you assisted your son to accuse the elders …….but not to be part of the solution to the problem - to show courage and go to the elders and provide evidence,  ....…...or at least warn them so they could talk to the young man.....about his partying and drinking. 

If your son did not have proof of fornication to take to the elders but did not warn them that the young man is on a  self-indulgent path - he is is as guilty as you...I presume he had some warped guidance from you or have the same attitude as you.   He, like you, expected to get a guilty conviction from elders for behavior they probably were unaware of; they probably had no idea of the extent of the partying.  If there was not enough proof of adultery, your son could still have been part of the solution but instead blamed it on …...….privilege?  Victimhood attitude?  He could have been brave and been part of the solution but no, it is easier to be self-righteously superior and accuse the,,,,, privilege.... Did he expect the elders to have a crystal ball?  Did he expect the elders to follow up on the young man when they did not know that it was a pattern of behavior...  

Elders would have asked the young man if it is true.... maybe even believed his ...excuses...... but the young man would have been warned that he is on their radar.    Your son would have had the satisfaction that he pleased Jehovah - not people.     So if this issue came up again by another person telling the elders about the partying and drinking..... 2 witnesses,,,,that would be enough for elders to get serious about the young man and realize he is hiding something and maybe outright ask him if he has been involved in fornication...…

So your example is not proof of injustice and 'privilege' but proof of a sons cowardice to show integrity to snitch on buddies, which is as destructive as self-righteousness.

[Arauna]

9 hours ago, Witness said:

But the cowards, faithless, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars—their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”  Rev 21:8

You quote this scripture but you still think it OK to mix with such ones on a social level? You condemn us for disfellowshipping such ones?  Where is the hypocrisy? hhhhmmmmm.