How do you prove from the Bible that 1935 was the year for the selection to heaven stopped due to being filled?

[Ann O'Maly]

3 hours ago, Manuel Boyet Enicola said:

You're correct.  But JWs never quoted the Bible as "basis" for the year 1935

Really? So where did they get the idea from? How did they come to the 'logical conclusion' that 1935 was when the heavenly calling ended? 

 

[Jesus.defender]

20 hours ago, Manuel Boyet Enicola said:

You're correct.  But JWs never quoted the Bible as "basis" for the year 1935, hence the question itself is, say, "defective".  Pardon me, I couldn't think of a more appropriate term....

 

[Jesus.defender]

20 hours ago, Manuel Boyet Enicola said:

I do not know if the English you use is the same English I understand, but the quote simply said that it was a logical conclusion as to when the heavenly calling ended.  The Bible was never quoted as the "source" of the year 1935. It was simply "arrived at", in the same way Moses "supposed" (assumed, NLV) it was time for him to liberate Israel but was 40 years early in time.....

First off, WHY are you using a Bible translation that you do not believe in or use?

 

Key words in your prophecy is " and the evidence"

 

Where was this evidence?

[JW Insider]

On 5/28/2016 at 3:22 AM, Manuel Boyet Enicola said:

But JWs never quoted the Bible as "basis" for the year 1935, hence the question itself is, say, "defective".

That's not exactly accurate. It is true that we didn't initially quote the Bible as the the "basis" and that's because it was considered to be a direct "revelation" or "flash of light" -- sometimes called "lightning flashes from the holy temple". In fact, for many years the 1935 "revelation" was touted as evidence that Jehovah God and Jesus Christ were using Joseph Rutherford directly, because, just as Rutherford claimed, there was no more "holy spirit" with the organization since 1919. (Jehovah and Jesus were now dealing directly with the anointed in the temple, through the angels.)

For 50 years we sang Kingdom Songs with the words: 

"From God's holy temple / Lightnings flash and shine / That we may be guided / By his light divine."  - Song #63 (1984-2010), and Song #32 (1966-1984), and Song #17 (1950-1966), and Song #22 (1945-1950), Song #68 (1928-1945)

I have a feeling that most of us do not realize that the original "lightnings" doctrine was a replacement for the idea of guidance by the "holy spirit." Rather than bore anyone with the whole doctrine, I'll just quote short snippets. Note the time period of these articles and statements:

“But when the Lord Jesus comes to his temple and gathers his approved ones into the temple, is there any further need for the office of the holy spirit as a helper and advocate?  If not, then the advocacy of the holy spirit would there cease.  Jesus, being in the temple and with his chosen ones, would act for them directly.” (Watchtower, September 1, 1930 p. 263)

 

“It would seem that there would be no necessity for the ‘servant’ to have an advocate such as the holy spirit, because the ‘servant’ to have an advocate is in direct communication with Jehovah and as Jehovah’s instrument, and Christ Jesus acts for the entire body.” (Watchtower, September 1, 1930 p. 263)

 

"All at the temple will realize that their spiritual food comes to them from their Teachers, Jehovah and Christ Jesus..." -- Watchtower, May 1, 1934. p.131. [will explain later why this article is directly important to the discussion.]

 

“The holy spirit that had been the guide of God’s people, having performed its functions, was taken away, and the Lord Jesus himself, being present, represented his people and advocated in their behalf before Jehovah God, that is, in behalf of those who had fallen into distress because of their failure to properly use their lips in proclaiming the truth.” (Salvation, 1939 p. 217)

 

Of course, this is no longer our teaching. We now teach exactly the opposite: that the anointed "servant" has been especially guided by the holy spirit since 1919, even though Rutherford had long denied that this guidance had really been the work of the holy spirit since 1918 and 1919, when Jesus was supposed to have come to the the temple:

*** ip-1 chap. 25 p. 340 par. 20 The King and His Princes *** [Isaiah's Prophecy, 2000]
Happily, since 1919, Jehovah’s spirit has been poured out in abundance upon his people, restoring, as it were, a fruit-bearing orchard of anointed Witnesses, to be followed by an expanding forest of other sheep.

Oddly, this puts Joseph Rutherford, the key member of the "Governing Body" at that time, and therefore the key spokesman for the "faithful and wise servant" (FDS)  in the awkward position of denying the work of the holy spirit. But it was the best explanation for how it was possible to obtain "messages" that revealed truths that were not based on specific Biblical support. Up until about 1934, many Jehovah's Witnesses were still attributing "new light" and "new truths" and "guidance from beyond the veil" to communication with the apostles and other holy ones who had died. Special credit was given to Charles Taze Russell who was supposedly still running every aspect of the harvest work from beyond the grave.

“Though Pastor Russell has passed beyond the veil, he is managing every feature of the harvest work.” -- The Finished Mystery (Seventh Volume of Studies in the Scriptures).

Although Russell was the only one specificially named, we taught others were also supposedly communicating from beyond the grave. Communication with spirits was considered a grave sin for everyone else, but the Watch Tower Society had made an exception for itself because we believed then that the apostles had been resurrected in 1878. (And therefore any anointed who died since 1878 was immediately resurrected, and Russell would have been resurrected on October 31, 1916.) Note:

"And to the saints—‘We hold that it is a most reasonable inference, and one in perfect harmony with all the Lord’s plan, that in the spring of 1878 all the holy Apostles and other ‘overcomers’ of the Gospel Age who slept in Jesus were raised spirit beings, like unto their Lord and Master.'” (Finished Mystery, 1918 edition)

 

Apparently, Rutherford realized that this teaching appeared to be related to "spiritism" and said the following in 1930.

 

"The Lord used The Watchtower to announce these truths. Doubtless he used his invisible deputies to have much to do with it. This is not what some may regard as "spiritism", by any means; but it does mean that God can direct his people without any audible communication with them." - Rutherford, J. F., Light book 1, 1930, p. 64

Between 1929 and 1934, Rutherford had changed so many of Russell's teachings that it was apparently difficult to continue crediting Russell as that "deputy." It was time to stop teaching this doctrine. The resurrection of the apostles and "saints" (like Russell) had already been moved 40 years from 1878 to 1918. (Just as Jesus' presence had been moved 40 years from 1874 to 1914. The closing of the door to the kingdom of heavens had been 1881, but instead of 1921/2, this was now about to be moved to 1935. That's why in 1934, Rutherford said, what I started to quote above in the context of the absence of the holy spirit as guide:

“All at the temple will realize that their spiritual food comes to them from their Teachers, Jehovah and Christ Jesus, and not from any man. No one of the temple company will be so foolish as to conclude that some brother (or brethren) at one time amongst them, and who has died and gone to heaven, is now instructing the saints on earth and directing them as to their work.” –The Watchtower, May 1, 1934 p. 131

As of 1934, what Rutherford had himself taught and published since 1917, was now "foolish." 50-some years later our more recent book, "Revelation - Its Grand Climax at Hand" (1988 & 2006) didn't seem to get the memo, and went right back to allowing for communication with spirit creatures again. But notice that this is considered to be related to the same explanation for 1935 and the "lightning flashes." (I didn't include them, but several of the older references to "lightning flashes in Jehovah's temple" were with reference to the 1935 doctrine, probably because it was not a doctrine with a Biblical reference to back it up.)

“From the time of the apostle John and on into the Lord’s day, anointed Christians were puzzled as to the identity of the great crowd. It is fitting, then, that one of the 24 elders, representing anointed ones already in heaven, should stir John’s thinking by raising a pertinent question. “And in response one of the elders said to me: ‘These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?’ So right away I said to him: ‘My lord, you are the one that knows.’” (Revelation 7:13, 14a) Yes, that elder could locate the answer and give it to John. This suggests that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today. For their part, those of the John class on earth got to learn the identity of the great crowd by closely observing what Jehovah was performing in their midst. They were quick to appreciate the dazzling flash of divine light that emblazoned the theocratic firmament in 1935, at Jehovah’s due time.” –Revelation: Its Grand Climax at Hand! p. 124-125

Using a kind of circular reasoning, this idea is expanded as proof of the first resurrection sometime between 1914 and 1935:

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 11 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
11 What, then, can we deduce from the fact that one of the 24 elders identifies the great crowd to John? It seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today. Why is that important? Because the correct identity of the great crowd was revealed to God’s anointed servants on earth in 1935. If one of the 24 elders was used to convey that important truth, he would have had to be resurrected to heaven by 1935 at the latest. That would indicate that the first resurrection began sometime between 1914 and 1935. Can we be more precise? -- Watchtower, January 1, 2007, p. 28.

More recently, of course, we have said that we cannot be more precise, and in fact have stated that there is no direct evidence that the first resurrection has occurred yet, but will have to have occurred some time prior to Armageddon. This was already hinted at back in 2007.

*** w07 1/1 p. 27 par. 9 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Reasonably, then, anointed ones who die before Armageddon are resurrected sometime between 1914 and Armageddon.

Therefore, we now teach that the resurrection has already occurred -- most likely prior to 1935. But Biblically, we can only state that it happens sometime before Armageddon. (I mention this because it is this kind of continued reliance on the 1935 date, even recently, that has led some Witnesses to believe that 1935 is still part of the official teaching about when the "door was closed" to the heavenly kingdom, and that after this date only "replacements" for those who proved unfaithful prior to 1935 would be chosen. If we held to this belief now, we would soon be in danger of replacing the entire number of pre-1935 anointed Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses with "new anointed" since 1935, and that would imply that ALL of the pre-1935 anointed had proven unfaithful. In spite of the content of the article, there are similarly many Witnesses who still believe that the first resurrection took place in 1918, but that the Watchtower didn't want to sound dogmatic to the public because, just like 1935, there was no specific Scripture. But the article changed it from a "fact" prior to 2007, to merely "an interesting possibility":

the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility.

Just one last point. The 1935 doctrine was finally turned into a scriptural doctrine as the fulfillment of a prophecy. This is something that Ann has already pointed out with references:

*** w07 5/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***
From the late 1800’s until 1931, the main thrust of the preaching work was the gathering of the remaining members of the body of Christ. In 1931 the Bible Students took the Bible-based name Jehovah’s Witnesses, and in the November 15, 1933, issue of The Watchtower, the thought was expressed that this unique name was the “denarius” referred to in Jesus’ parable recorded at Matthew 20:1-16. The 12 hours mentioned in the parable were thought to correspond to the 12 years from 1919 to 1931. For many years after that, it was believed that the call to the heavenly Kingdom had ended in 1931 and that those called to be joint heirs with Christ in 1930 and 1931 were “the last” called. (Matthew 20:6-8) However, in 1966 an adjusted understanding of that parable was presented, and it became clear that it had nothing to do with the end of the calling of the anointed.
In 1935 the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9-15 was understood to be made up of “other sheep,” Christians with an earthly hope, who would appear on the world scene in “the last days” and who as a group would survive Armageddon. (John 10:16; 2 Timothy 3:1; Revelation 21:3, 4) After that year, the thrust of the disciple-making work turned to the gathering in of the great crowd. Hence, especially after 1966 it was believed that the heavenly call ceased in 1935. This seemed to be confirmed when almost all who were baptized after 1935 felt that they had the earthly hope. Thereafter, any called to the heavenly hope were believed to be replacements for anointed Christians who had proved unfaithful.

(The replacement of the "unfaithful" theory had also been used as late as the 1920's to explain how the heavenly door had been shut in 1881, yet newly anointed were still showing up. I have a copy of one of the Society's letters to a Watchtower reader from 1922 stating this.)

The time period for the end of the heavenly calling had previously been considered to be 1881, and then 1931-1935. For the 30 years prior to 1966 the date was considered variably from 1931 to 1935. From 1966 to about 2007 it was almost always spoken of as just "1935." But back when that date was 1931, it was considered to be fulfilled by the "prophecy" in Matthew 20:1-16 based on the not-so-well-known formula of "one hour equals one year." Each hour/year from 1919 would lead to 1919+12=1931. Voila!! Biblical evidence!

 

 

 

 

Anyway, I think that's the most complete and honest way to respond to points brought up by Ann, Jesus.defender, and Manuel Boyet Manicola

 

On 5/28/2016 at 7:15 AM, Ann O'Maly said:

So where did they get the idea from?

 

On 5/25/2016 at 6:53 AM, Jesus.defender said:

But they DID teach it as a prophecy.

On 5/27/2016 at 10:20 PM, Jesus.defender said:

and the evidence is that the general gathering of these specially blessed ones ended in 1935."Watchtower 1995 Feb 15 p.19

 

 

[Ann O'Maly]

Thanks JW Insider. I had a feeling that Manuel Boyet Manicola would struggle to answer (there's a lot of doctrinal history to dig up and process!), but you have given a thorough background to how this 1935 idea came to be.

As an aside, and slightly off at a tangent, it's interesting that one of the main arguments Rutherford put forward as scriptural evidence for the new 1935 'great crowd = earth-bound' teaching was that Jesus inspected the temple and had sat down on his judgment throne in 1918 with the nations before him, and he was separating the sheep from the goats (Matt. 25). These nations aren't in heaven, he reasoned, so the 'great crowd' of 'sheep' must be on earth when this takes place, therefore, this is evidence that the 'great crowd' is earthly, not heavenly. 

Seeing as the '1918 judgment/separating' teaching was revised in the mid-90s (it became a future event), this specific argument for the 'great crowd' being an earthly class evaporated.

Going back to how ideas were communicated back then, this caught my eye in the Aug. 15, 1935 WT (which discussed the new ideas about the 'great multitude'):

1935 WT volume found here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5jNoZSyIWQWS3NyVHlaazZvNFk/view