Forced "new light", but only slightly

[JOHN BUTLER]

7 minutes ago, Anna said:

You are obviously saying you are not fault finding or criticizing, just stating facts. Some people don't like to hear facts, especially if it goes against what they believe to be true. Nobody likes to be called out. The wisdom for you is to say your piece, and leave it. A bad idea is to keep harping on about it like you are the judge of all things. Don't think people don't hear you, they do, and it's up to them to process it.

I am not talking about forums like this one, you can harp on about things to your hearts content here, I am talking about face to face with people. 

The ones that I would like to talk to face to face, are too frightened to talk to me. ... Now that is either, frightened because they may get reported to the Elders, or, frightened that what i have to tell them will take them out of their comfort zone. 

And I am quite reserved on here actually. There are some on here that i don't even bother replying to. Because A. I think they are just a wind up, and B, I would totally lose self control, then probably get banned. 

I do have a tiny amount of common sense  

As for fault finding, I don't generally go looking for things but things just seem to crop up. Lots of people are mentioning 'faults' that i didn't even know existed in the JW Org. I have my main concern but that has been talked about enough unless any 'new light' appears. And I'm not meaning that new Watchtower.. 

[Anna]

1 minute ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The ones that I would like to talk to face to face, are too frightened to talk to me. ... Now that is either, frightened because they may get reported to the Elders, or, frightened that what i have to tell them will take them out of their comfort zone. 

Yes, you are not in a good position to talk anymore. It's too late. The time to say anything is when you are still a member of the congregation. And that's when what I said in the previous post applies. I still think you were too hasty in your assessment of the child abuse issues. When something is going on, that I feel is not good, I always think of this scripture: "For there is nothing hidden that will not be exposed; nothing is carefully concealed that will not come out in the open" Mark 4:22

When the Australian Commission inquiry first started, I spoke with a faithful, long time sister in Australia, I wanted to know what she thought about it, and she quoted that same scripture to me.

What I am saying is there is no reason to jump ship. We may not agree with something, or may believe something is downright wrong. But we have to put things into the right perspective. The worldwide brotherhood has many many good things, and most brothers and sisters have genuine love for each other and a desire to walk modestly with their God, and a desire to live a good clean life according to the Bible. If we stick with our brothers and sisters, and wait on Jehovah to sort things out, that need sorting out, we cannot lose. And IF the leadership (GB) would go down, so what, we still have our brothers and sisters and most of all Jehovah.

[JOHN BUTLER]

20 minutes ago, Anna said:

Yes, you are not in a good position to talk anymore. It's too late. The time to say anything is when you are still a member of the congregation. And that's when what I said in the previous post applies. I still think you were too hasty in your assessment of the child abuse issues. When something is going on, that I feel is not good, I always think of this scripture: "For there is nothing hidden that will not be exposed; nothing is carefully concealed that will not come out in the open" Mark 4:22

When the Australian Commission inquiry first started, I spoke with a faithful, long time sister in Australia, I wanted to know what she thought about it, and she quoted that same scripture to me.

What I am saying is there is no reason to jump ship. We may not agree with something, or may believe something is downright wrong. But we have to put things into the right perspective. The worldwide brotherhood has many many good things, and most brothers and sisters have genuine love for each other and a desire to walk modestly with their God, and a desire to live a good clean life according to the Bible. If we stick with our brothers and sisters, and wait on Jehovah to sort things out, that need sorting out, we cannot lose. And IF the leadership (GB) would go down, so what, we still have our brothers and sisters and most of all Jehovah.

Don't know if we are off topic here, but the topic is wide anyway  and someone put my name on it. 

You are missing the collateral damage issues and that abusers are still hidden in the congregations. So i could not be active in the field ministry, trying to bring people into the Org which is a dangerous environment. Bring in lambs amongst wolves. 

Was it you that once said, that a person who is not actively against something, is actually a part of the problem. Well i felt like that anyway. Not being against it in an active way made me part of the problem. I was hoping that thousands of brothers and sisters would leave the JW Org.  

There was just too much involved. The congregants were not being warned in any way. They should have been told to be careful in case there was 'trouble' in the ministry because of people's anger due to the child abuse situation. But no, no warning was given. 

And you know that it was too dangerous for me to tell people inside the congregation because I would have been disfellowshipped for 'causing a division in the congregation'. Then the Elders would have been happy to say i was an Apostate. 

Wasn't one of the GB saying that it was all lies and all Apostate propaganda ? So what chance did i have in telling folks ? 

True that God will sort it all out in the end, but meanwhile thousands of children are suffering child abuse, physical abuse and emotional abuse, some of it by their own parents in the JW org. 

As for me not being in a good position anymore, it's quite the contrary. My position is now safe for me to talk. It's other people's problems if they are too frightened to want to listen. They know where I live if they want to talk to me.

People don't answer my emails, that is their choice. My conscience is clear. I' not offering children to Molech. 

[Anna]

13 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Wasn't one of the GB saying that it was all lies and all Apostate propaganda ? So what chance did i have in telling folks ? 

I think you must have missed my post about that.

Lett didn't say child abuse was apostate lies and propaganda, he wasn't denying there was a problem. What he said was that us denying there is a problem, and ignoring child abuse, is apostate lies.

I will reply to the rest of your post later. I can't right now.

[Anna]

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You are missing the collateral damage issues and that abusers are still hidden in the congregations.

I am assuming you are talking about your personal experience in your congregation hiding an abuser?

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So i could not be active in the field ministry, trying to bring people into the Org which is a dangerous environment. Bring in lambs amongst wolves.  

I am sorry John, but you make it sound like there is a pedophile lurking in every congregation. Let’s get real here, people from the “outside” are more at risk of being raped and their children molested than inside a congregation. Also, most of the cases have been familial, as you mention later on, which means it would have happened regardless of being part of a congregation or not. Just because someone claims to be a faithful JW doesn't make him so.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Was it you that once said, that a person who is not actively against something, is actually a part of the problem. Well i felt like that anyway. Not being against it in an active way made me part of the problem. I was hoping that thousands of brothers and sisters would leave the JW Org.  

First of all, to be effective in being against something you have to have all the facts about that something. It’s no good throwing accusations around based on limited information. Then you’d be like the tabloid newspapers, all about sensationalism and misleading selective quotes. And no matter how much objective information you've read, and how many court cases you've studied, you still will not have all the facts. You'd only have those if you were a fly on the wall.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

There was just too much involved. The congregants were not being warned in any way. They should have been told to be careful in case there was 'trouble' in the ministry because of people's anger due to the child abuse situation. But no, no warning was given. 

So are you here talking about your congregation? Or in general?

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And you know that it was too dangerous for me to tell people inside the congregation because I would have been disfellowshipped for 'causing a division in the congregation'. Then the Elders would have been happy to say i was an Apostate. 

I disagree with you there. I am not sure how you dealt with it, I know you wrote a letter, but did you give the elders a chance to explain themselves? No one is disfellowshipped for being worried and showing genuine concern. Especially when they take this worry and concern to the elders, rather than the congregants. It’s the elders who are responsible for the congregation. They are the ones who need to know.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

True that God will sort it all out in the end, but meanwhile thousands of children are suffering child abuse, physical abuse and emotional abuse, some of it by their own parents in the JW org. 

We can add other atrocities, incurable ailments, and all kinds of tragedies. This is the legacy that Adam and Eve have left mankind. Remember, the whole world is lying in Satan’s power. No one is immune.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for me not being in a good position anymore, it's quite the contrary. My position is now safe for me to talk. It's other people's problems if they are too frightened to want to listen. They know where I live if they want to talk to me.

True, you can talk all you like, but it’s not going to be effective if no one listen, is it? And I thought that was your motive, for people to hear you.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

On 2/1/2019 at 1:33 PM, Shiwiii said:

Not much, but some is better than nothing, 

In fact, the problem is solved and everyone not completely unhinged knows it.

Witnesses have always been free to report. The unsettling aspect of the CSA cases is that many chose not to do it because they thought they might be bringing reproach on God’s name. Now, beyond any possibility of misunderstanding, it is spelled out for them and for elders that they are not. The problem is solved.

There are always going to be ‘What ifs.’ At some point one must have some confidence in the power of parents to be concerned for their children. It is not easy to get between a mama bear and her cub. You make it sound like a walk in the park. Reporting to authorities has now been endorsed. The two witness rule becomes irrelevant, as it always was to outside authorities 

In the rare situation that nobody has payed the slightest attention to Christian values taught, if wrath or revenge is feared, mama bear may have to flee the house. This has always been the case with in abusive families. The point is that she now knows she has a green light to do it, and can summon whatever authority there is for domestic violence and she need not think she is failing God, the congregation, her family, or anyone else.

Sometimes I think that these virulent opposers will not be satified until there is a cop stationed in every Witness home.

[Melinda Mills]

But the cops might be immoral too, or even pedophiles also.Who knows. Would create a bigger problem.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Only that he sells books for a living   

He does not. He would like to, but his last two books, because they address things important, will always be available free in some digital format.

Obviously, this undermines any efforts to make a living via selling books.

[Witness]

6 hours ago, Anna said:

Lett didn't say child abuse was apostate lies and propaganda, he wasn't denying there was a problem. What he said was that us denying there is a problem, and ignoring child abuse, is apostate lies.

He said, "As an example, think about the apostate-driven lies and dishonesties that Jehovah’s organization is PERMISSIVE” toward pedophiles.”

How can you dispute this?  Because of their permissive stand, they were called in front of the ARC for not reporting 1006 perpetrators to the police.  Is this not permissiveness?  They are in the courts continually, or settling outside of the courts simply because they have been permissive toward pedophiles residing in the organization.  It appear that a pedophile's behavior did not, does not warrant enough disgust over the damage done to the victim, to turn them over to the police...unless...unless, state laws requires them to.    

Yes, the organization is permissive toward pedophiles.  Their actions prove it.  What's very sad, is JWs believe GOD WILL FIX IT.  People are to "fix" their actions, their beliefs, and approach God on how to do it through Christ.  It is not God's responsibility to correct an organization that is corrupt.  It is our responsibility to correct ourselves by turning to both Christ and the Father.  There's nothing to wait on but judgment, and whether we served God according to Christ's teachings by rejecting the continually failed doctrine of men and their made up "decrees". 

What is "unclean"?  Pedophilia and its permissiveness in the organization.  Leaders who give false "prophesies". Leaders who have muscled their way in between Christ, the anointed, and all.  Giving an earthly entity the title of "salvation".  Disfellowshipping and shunning those who realize NOT TO TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN.  2 Cor 6:17

Does this sound like an organization that has gained God's approval???    

Our "brothers and sisters" cannot save us from the wrath of God.  As much as we want to support them, we each stand before Christ to answer for our choices.  What did the early prophets do?  They spoke a message not favorable to their "brothers and sisters".  They were "sanctified by truth" and they spoke truth, no matter how difficult and how perilous to themselves it may have been. John 17:17  That should be the desire of each one of us, and it is how we walk in the path of Christ.  

The organization is a delusion, a scam, a deceitful "machination" to lead us AWAY from Christ and the Father.  2 Thess 2:9-12   But each heart will make their choice.

 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;  but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.  So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”  Matt 13:24-30

Would the "wheat" remain where all those things that are detestable to God, are practiced?  Or, would they turn to Christ?

 

 

 

 

 

[Anna]

44 minutes ago, Witness said:

As an example, think about the apostate-driven lies and dishonestys that Jehovah’s organization is PERMISSIVE” toward pedophiles.”

 adjective: permissive

1. 1.

   allowing or characterized by great or excessive freedom of behavior.

   "the permissive society of the 60s and 70s"

   synonyms:

   liberal, broad-minded, open-minded, nonrestrictive, free, free and easy, easygoing, live-and-let-live, latitudinarian, laissez-faire, libertarian, unprescriptive, unrestricted, tolerant, forbearing, indulgent, lenient; More

 

No, Jehovah Witnesses have never been permissive or tolerant towards immorality of any kind. Anyone practicing these things is disfellowshipped.

 

 

 

 

[Witness]

Anna, were all 1006 perpetrators disfellowshipped?

[Anna]

4 minutes ago, Witness said:

Anna, were all 1006 perpetrators disfellowshipped?

Do you have all the the information on all 1006 cases?