All Eight Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses members are now individually named on two New York Child Victims Act case documents

[TrueTomHarley]

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

In next three years - China will become a threat......to patrol the seas with all the ports it has already acquired and still expanding..... a

When I knew even less than I do now, I mentioned to my son that China, having just emerged from Maoist peasant and dark ages, was starting to throw its weight around and aspire to greatness. He, who lives among countries of the old Yugoslavia and keeps up with world history more than I do, replied that China has always regarded itself as a great nation, and is merely reasserting its greatness, having at last thrown off the deliberate Western sabotage of the 20th century.

 

8 hours ago, Anna said:

However, if I started chopping the onion in quarters, instead of small pieces, as stated in the recipe, then Julia Child would not be there to personally correct me. 

Long ago a friend of mine tried to follow Angie’s recipe for delicious sauce. He didn’t know what a clove was, so he figured it must be another word for the bulb. When he phoned Angie to report that the sauce tasted funny, she laughed so hysterically that she could be heard without the phone. You could not approach my pal for days.

9 hours ago, AlanF said:

And if you had any integrity you'd not have chopped off "1925" from my quote. You're now actually stooping to deliberate misquoting to make a point. Like Mommy like son.

I am not so devious as you suggest. I didn’t think it through. I merely highlighted some words of yours quickly to connect my thoughts with yours. To show that I am not in a conspiracy to suppress your words:

18 hours ago, AlanF said:

As we have heretofore stated, the great jubilee cycle is due to begin in 1925. 

There. Happy?

Going back 100 years to harangue about a failed anticipation does not interest me so that I should scheme to hide it. I have plainly stated that there were some closely succeeding dates back then that were like when you miss the nail with the hammer, and in frustration, swing several times more, again missing each time.

Besides, I wrote the book on how to predict the end. If people would pay attention to my research that I have presented here and on my own blog, we could nail down that sucker to within an hour or two:

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2011/05/how-to-predict-the-end-of-the-world.html

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@Arauna  But your quote, which I highlighted in red, proves that the earlier, Bible Students / Russell, were not guided by Almighty God's holy spirit, AND also proves that your GB / JW Org are not guided by Almighty God's holy spirit. 

As for sports clubs / organisations closing down due to heavy fines or loss of membership, due to CSA within them. I don't care. I am no part of this world, so why would I care ? 

Quote "But as usual - the press will only single us out even though the injustice was not "planned" or tolerated."

You know that isn't true. The ARC wasn't set up to deal with JW CSA was it ?   Earthwide governments / official bodies etc are being set up to look into most religions, and all other places where children are possibly being abused.  It is not just the JW Org. 

JW Org is singled out on here for the obvious reason that this is a JW org forum. 

Quote "There is nothing wrong with not having the full picture or making a mistake "   

BUT, it would be so nice, so honest in fact, IF the GB would say that they DON'T KNOW' rather that 'making a mistake' / telling lies.. 

Sometimes, when my children would ask me a question, I would have to answer that I didn't know.  My children looked to me for answers. Some questions I could not answer. But I had the honesty to tell them 'I don't know'. 

Now if the GB were only humble enough to say 'I don't know'  when they were asked some important questions. If the GB and their Writing Dept' were only honest enough not to make up things when they 'do not know'.   The GB make themselves as bait for criticism due to 'mistakes' and dishonesty. 

One last quote here " We cannot remain in the truth without his spirit. " 

The Watchtower / JW org  has misused this word 'Truth' as a gimmick, a trick, a sly misguiding. 

Because truth actually means truth.  And TRUTH is in God's written word which never changes. But the 'beliefs / teachings' of the GB and it's Org constantly change.  

 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

3 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Now if the GB were only humble enough to say 'I don't know' 

Isn’t saying that you can err the same as saying you don’t know?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

It would appear, as I've probably mentioned before, that Mr Harley, once found out to have made a devious wrong move, tries so hard to turn it into a joke. He's such a self centred man. He even seems to admit that he doesn't read comments properly. 

[JW Insider]

23 hours ago, AlanF said:

Quote

if they changed their policy and quit disfellowshipping for 'apostasy', their membership roles would drop immediately and drastically.

 

Then you said:

23 hours ago, AlanF said:

In my experience with online forums and simply talking with ex-JWs generally, I've seen a great seething anger on the part of many because of the Society's policy of disfellowshipping for expressing disagreement with any JW doctrine. Such authoritarianism is bound to create resentment on the part of those who can actually think. . . . Remember the large drop in JW membership after the 1975 fiasco.

The only reason that many JWs remain in the cult, at least nominally, is to avoid disfellowshipping or informal shunning. I know many, including my own family members, who are in that boat.

Unless I'm missing something, this includes contradictory logic. You said that if the WTS stopped DFing for apostasy the numbers would go down. But then your "evidence" is that the numbers go down when there is resentment when they continue to show authoritarianism by DFing for apostasy.

23 hours ago, AlanF said:

the most important question the elders would ask is: "Do you believe that Jehovah is using the Governing Body?" A 'No' answer results in immediate disfellowshipping, as many stories posted by ex-JWs prove.

Perhaps you've spent many years on forums where such persons tell their stories, and the cumulative effect makes you think this is very common. Pew Research provides some indication to me that most JWs who no longer believe strongly enough in the value of the Watchtower organization simply drift away. Most are not disfellowshipped at all. Even those who would have been disfellowshipped have apparently (mostly) realized that one need only drift away. Ones that want to make a statement may write a letter or make a scene somewhere (such as an online site or at a Kingdom Hall or Convention). These would be a small minority.

Technically if one isn't out to make a scene it's probably easy enough to answer the elders questions honestly and not be in any trouble. If I were asked "Do you believe that Jehovah is using the Faithful and Discreet Slave?" The answer would be an easy and straightforward "Yes!" Technically the same goes for the Governing Body, just as Jehovah is able to use any group of elders, or publishers for that matter. Wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in Jesus' name, there he is in their midst. And of course anyone who has doubts about a doctrine should be able to humbly admit that it is a matter of not being able to understand the current doctrine in question, but make it clear that you don't want to make an issue or cause contention inside the congregation. I'm guessing that a humble attitude would solve 90 percent of these problems that might otherwise lead to DFing.

23 hours ago, AlanF said:

That's because there IS no acceptable replacement. Why? Because it is the entire end-times scenario created by Russell and perpetuated by his successors that is wrong.

For me, the acceptable replacement is a humble admission that after getting things wrong over and over again on chronology, that we simply follow Jesus' advice to give up on chronology. At least the kind of chronology that is used to try to predict the time period for the generation that will see the end-times scenario.

23 hours ago, AlanF said:

The experience of many JWs who tried to offer constructive criticism but were punished for their efforts proves it. Think of Carl Olof Jonsson and Jay Hess.

I agree that there should be a way to provide constructive criticism that isn't immediately seen as a kind of "running ahead" of the organization. Of course, if you look at all the ideas people get, you can understand that the Governing Body are afraid of the chaos it could unleash if everybody started writing about their own opinions. There are a few who have dropped by this forum with ideas that would make everyone cringe as they go off the deep end of mysticism, gnosticism, chronology, numerology, etc.

I hate to admit that I had absolutely no idea who Jay Hess was until I just now looked him up. I probably saw the name before, but I typically tune out those who spend so much time on Trinity, worship vs obeisance, etc.

23 hours ago, AlanF said:

But a far better practice would be to organizationally ignore most bad forms of conduct, since individual JWs are supposed to be trained to have consciences tuned well enough to figure these things out on their own.

Disagree. We were talking about DFing for various forms of disagreement that the Society has traditionally treated as apostasy. I believe the Bible supports some of this DFing, as you seem to admit, too. We would also be individually responsible for our own "marking" and choice of "fellowshipping" avoiding "bad associations" even among those who call themselves a brother. But we don't IGNORE most forms of bad conduct. The elders are to watch over the flock, and give good counsel when they learn of bad forms of conduct. We shouldn't make up rules about six months of shunning, or one year of shunning. And no one should enforce shunning for another person. You make a good point that the right way to train a good conscience is to be allowed the responsibility of using that individual conscience -- but this does not mean that strong counsel and guidance should not be in order for those whose spirituality is drifting due to their conduct or their associations.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

2 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Isn’t saying that you can err the same as saying you don’t know?

No, it's using the 'err' word as an excuse to tell lies. And I do wish I could find the quote whereby it seems that the GB say its ok to tell lies as it's 'Spiritual Warfare'.  @JW Insider will probs tell me I've got that quote wrong as well.  

Quote @JW Insider  " I agree that there should be a way to provide constructive criticism that isn't immediately seen as a kind of "running ahead" of the organization. "

Surely the whole point is, that the Bible Students, GB, Watchtower, JW Org, have been RUNNING AHEAD of CHRIST or GOD ?

Otherwise would not at least some of their 'predictions' have come true. 

 

@TrueTomHarley    Quote ".. that were like when you miss the nail with the hammer, and in frustration, swing several times more, again missing each time. "

Wow now that shows spiritual guidance, doesn't it ?  

[TrueTomHarley]

28 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Quote ".. that were like when you miss the nail with the hammer, and in frustration, swing several times more, again missing each time. "

Wow now that shows spiritual guidance, doesn't it ?  

Humor does not universally translate even to those who do have a sense of humor, let alone to those who do not.

[Arauna]

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

for sports clubs / organisations closing down due to heavy fines or loss of membership, due to CSA within them. I don't care. I am no part of this world, so why would I care

In the name of fairness - (I know you said you do not care..).... but what this indicates is that the problem is everywhere where there are children.  While JWs  managed the problem better than most other institutions we nevertheless did fail some victims.   People just judge too quickly and do not understand the complexities if dealing with this problem. In some families the mother does not believe her own children because the horror of it is too great!  It is easy to only judge JWs and expect them to be absolutely perfect.  

Now, I do not really care if GB is inspired or not.  Over the past few years my understanding of the scriptures has refined very much because I do the research and prepare for all my meetings.  Their study program helps me....

We WILL face persecution during Armageddon..... so why will I not cooperate with GB?   Whatever we do - if we belong to christ - we will face tribulation.  Better to be with friends in jail (who can support me) than alone somewhere  of my own choice.  Experience has taught me that numbers work better for protection and cooperation always brings benefits.....

 

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

My friend, this is only a wish these days

I agree. It seems how humankind is left to suffer. .... On other hand God, according to Romans book, gave to secular authorities to develop and evolve to this democratic standards we see today. Well, what we have? We have few tools how to change our circumstances in which we living. To vote, and to do that until people find the best of the worst. To plan revolution and make change in drastic and short time. To wait, and ..... to wait that problem be solved by self. :))

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

She was working at a school when the UN came

I am not sure what is this. UN as United Nations? Real, true UN officers and department, or some fake UN people?

[Anna]

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

you are so helpful to us some times. When you actually admit that the W/t GB and JW Org are wrong. 

So are you saying the Wt/GB themselves has never said they were wrong?

[TrueTomHarley]

20 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

@TrueTomHarley  I'm sorry to have to say this to you, but it appears to me that you and @Arauna are very selfish and actually offer nothing of use to any of the topics. 

 

20 hours ago, AlanF said:

I totally agree. Neither of them ever offers actual information -- only opinions, and often, just plain lies.

This is remarkable to me—the assumption that there is an obligation to patiently hear out and respond to anyone’s complaints.

Let us assume that 4Jah2Me has a complaint (I mean, he was DF’d (I think) for something) that he pushes and pushes and pushes to the point where he gets tossed out of the JW organization. He then engages TTH on the WNMF, pushing his complaint here, and simply assumes that TTH will open the door that elders have shut—patiently hearing him out and providing satisfaction after those unknown elders have demonstrated by their discipline (that he has rejected) that it cannot be done.

It’s not happening on my watch. What! This is a courtroom for malcontents to conduct cross-examination? I’ll respond and provide “actual information” any way I like.

What is the purpose of this forum? As far as I am concerned, it is the purpose of anyone who carries the ball. JW.org has a purpose. Tomsheepandgoats.com has a purpose. AlanF’s blog (I think he has one) undoubtedly has a purpose. But this one? @admin is not a Witness, nor I think anyone to whom religion is a top concern. His purpose is to indulge a hobby, keep abreast and comment on current events, and generate some advertising revenue. He has several times weighed in to the effect that he is dismayed and fed up with the quarreling that goes on here, but it is traffic, after all. Mostly he deals with other areas of his website.

@The Librarian (that old hen) is a Witness that I have described as an avant-garde one. She posts things both controversial and non-controversial and I would not be surprised if she was once resolving a crisis of conscience, and though this forum, has steadily moved toward loyalty to God, instead of away like AlanF. She would probably like to see more adherence to topics, but in the end, I think she is happy to see a good witness given, and that cannot usually be done by letting malcontents control the agenda, though JWI does attempt it and sometimes succeeds.

I could be wrong, but I think she is stuck with me, and she knows it. I may be a bad pupil, but after all, I am her pupil and I think she stands by me, even as she shakes her head sometimes. The purpose of this forum is whatever I want it to be when I have the ball—it is a human institution, and no more—and then others get the ball and the purpose becomes whatever they want it to be. Selfish? Sure—but why not? The unselfish channel for spiritual things is jw.org. “Please tell me what you don’t like about JW.org so I can smash you over the head with it,” say several obtuse opponents. I don’t think so. I’ll spill when and to the extent that I see fit. I am an apologist—not a “disgusting” one, like that fathead states, but one who strives to do what the word itself means—defends.

The old hen only has two genuine Witnesses on the controversial threads that reliably comment, and one of them is a little bit squirrelly—which one is in the eye of the beholder. Then there is a second buttressing level of 4 or 5 persons who are solid, but they also have lives to lead and most of them disappear for weeks or months at a time. I don’t think she’s ever going to mess with JWI or I, because if she does, she has very little left to represent JWs and she becomes simply another undisguised apostate website—which I don’t think she wants. So we two set the “purpose” here to a large extent, and our intents are not the same. He takes the topic in one direction, and I wrestle it in another. 

Someone from the second tier will have to step up to the plate if either of us go and I don’t think they have the time. Nope. It is my forum here, now. It will do what I want it to until someone else takes the snap. 

Will that someone be AllenS, who (I think) resurrects himself at will with myriad names, all displaying the same unusual combination of qualities, even inspiring guesswork as to who he really is? Is he an informed, though paranoid and cantankerous, brother of undefined standing? Is he an opposer who wishes to make JWs look bad by posing as one and showing intolerance, incessant bickering, and unreasonableness? Is he a genuine brother so determined to shut down “apostasy” that he floods the site with such unpleasantness that anyone who doesn’t drink unpleasantness as the elixir of life will flee the scene? Who knows? But he has as much right as anyone to carry on as he does, until the Librarian tosses him, which she has done, but there is hardly any point because he just pops up in another alias.

This is a lawless place. One must know that going in. Nobody really knows who’s who. AlanF, who surely must be one of the most unpleasant persons to ever walk the planet, has somehow picked up the notion that I am Vic Vomidog. With John Butler being “DFed” (says JWI—something I did not know), I am once more heading in the direction that 4Jah2Me is really a reincarnation of him. “Can’t you just accept me as me?” he says. No, I can’t. I mean, I can entertain the possibility, and I would rate it at about 60%—really quite high—but he surfaces with identical peculiar reasonings and even some exact words of John B, so I reserve the possibility that they may be the same.

It’s a frontier. It’s lawless. Someone else said that it is exhilarating operating in such an atmosphere, and I like that characterization. Still, it sure does consume time, and it would probably do ME good to get tossed.

[Anna]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Now if the GB were only humble enough to say 'I don't know' 

Isn’t saying that you can err the same as saying you don’t know?

They have actuality said they don't know on a number of occasions, in written form as well as verbally. On the other occasions they believed they knew. As with the overlapping generation, they believe they know, and right now, we can't say categorically that they are wrong. They may be right. Only time will tell.