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I disagree:

It is NOT loyalty to the GB.

It is fear of reprisals, banishment, and social ostracism.

I have never even met anyone that is "loyal to the Governing Body".

They do try to be loyal to God ...by obeying the non-inspired and all to often fallible and flat wrong, sometimes goofy self-aggrandizing teachings of the GB.

Sometimes that is noble and a good thing to do.

Sometimes ... not.

They alone are allowed to apostatize from their previous teachings, without severe punishment.

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You are a sick lady to say such a thing.  I'd better stop at that. 

How does this make any sense to average jws?  ............................ Try not to underestimate the Average JWs....many have and are working things out...but they are also working out so

I quote 4jah2me "it seems crazy to let yourself die" ...... well ..... jesus allowed himself to die in loyalty to his father......  4jah2me obviously sees something seriously SICK in that!......... or

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41 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It is NOT loyalty to the GB.

It is fear of reprisals, banishment, and social ostracism.

I have never even met anyone that is "loyal to the Governing Body".

I can agree with you on this, but the underlying factor is that the social ostracism and banishment is directed by the gb, if you want to be right with God in their eyes. Which, I think is what you are saying here:

 

44 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

They do try to be loyal to God ...by obeying the non-inspired and all to often fallible and flat wrong, sometimes goofy self-aggrandizing teachings of the GB.

 

 

 

 

44 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

They alone are allowed to apostatize from their previous teachings, without severe punishment

And right here you hit the nail on the head! 

How does this make any sense to average jws? 

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How does this make any sense to average jws

............................

Try not to underestimate the Average JWs....many have and are working things out...but they are also working out some things that others here are not...

the thing you have to remember....is Jehovah  will and always has disciplined his chosen men in authority over his people...
1) Moses ...he was a murderer before he was ever given his assignment....and at nearing the end of their journey...due to such a heavy load upon him and stresses that none of us could bear...he actually became self righteous and proud..and I am imagining that attitude  would not have happened over night or just when he walked and stood before the Rock..

all Jehovah told Moses To do was to SPEAK to the rock...but no...Moses first yelled abuse at the people.( I dont really blame him but he was not ordered to do that ) 

he had no right to do that.

And  Moses becoming full of himself and his importance ( pride ) he felt HE had to do MORE than what was asked of him.

He struck the rock ..not once...but his personal decision and leaning on his own Underderstanding and reasonings...he struck TWICE..because he deemed the stupid people needed that..( do you or have you ever felt that the GB have beaten you with their rod ) ...and then he gathered the miracle to himself by saying ..
SHALL WE....As we all know it had nothing to do with him..but everything to do with Jehovah...( he took the glory to himself and ignored Jehovah )

 

now we all know he was disciplined very harshly later for that but what most miss...and this is a very important point...is Jehovah still expected the People to follow his instructions that he gave to Moses.....he STILL USED the about to be disciplined Moses....and he EXPECTED the people to follow those instructions ...because they never came from Moses but Him.

yes Jehovah allowed Mosses to sin...as he did Aaron...as he did King David...and countless others he used.........because there is no human that can rule over or govern his people on this earth..and he knew that all along...he knew whoever takes authoritarian position over his gathered   people will commit such grave errors..

yet he still expected the people to stay together......but he expects us to work these things out...to reason on why he allows these things...

Moses didn’t trust Jehovah enough to just speak...

Jehovahs approach was much more gentle and kind to the Israelites ...take your rod, assemble the people and speak to the rock.

Moses was rather bombastic Prideful and harsh and he did it His way...

Numbers 20:24

Because you rebelled against MY Command at the waters of Meribah you will not enter into the land for which I have given to the sons of Israel.

Imagine that....calling and accusing Moses and Aaron of being Rebels

and yet it was Moses and Aaron who accused the people of being rebels ...

Numbers 20:10

.....hear now YOU REBELS

the point being is Jehovah will always discipline those he allows authority and those who claim to have it....

yet he still loved Moses very much and even after death..Jesus safeguarded his bones ....

Until MOSES death he still expected the people to follow his instructions...as his job was still yet to be completed....nobody fled the camp after Moses verbal abuse of them or harsh display of frustration and piety....they stayed...and trusted Jehovah..to handle the situation..

so too today...we must trust that Jehovah knows what he is doing...

Soon we will cross over Into that New Land....and as Joshua/ typifying Jesus led the people..into the land flowing with milk and honey........so to will Jesus....lead those who prove faithfull.

Yes it’s excruciating at times..but the night is well along...and the day will soon break forth....

 


 

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13 hours ago, Thinking said:

Until MOSES death he still expected the people to follow his instructions...as his job was still yet to be completed....nobody fled the camp after Moses verbal abuse of them or harsh display of frustration and piety....they stayed...and trusted Jehovah..to handle the situation..

so too today...we must trust that Jehovah knows what he is doing...

Moses – a prophet appointed as spokesperson for God. 

“Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground. 34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’35 This is the same Moses they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush. 36 He led them out of Egypt and performed wonders and signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the wilderness.”  Acts 7:36,37

The Pharisees – They were not prophets but sat in Moses’ seat, yet were condemned by Jesus because of their lies, their burdens put on the people, and their additional laws and decrees not sanctioned by God.

 

Jesus Christ – a prophet, the King of righteousness, the Son of God. 

 

37 This is the Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your own people.’ 38 He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us.”  Acts 7:37,38

Where does the Governing Body fit in? Are they “like” Moses?  Or, would that be Jesus Christ?  The GB fit in in as the modern-day Pharisees, who add to the scriptures with their additional laws and decrees, their false teachings and burdens put upon the people. 

You not only seem to make light of the role of Moses as an aggravating personality,  but you have put GB in the seat of Moses, when God has already given us Jesus Christ – “a prophet” like Moses. 

A follower of Jesus would not tolerate any lies that  may be called "truth", from any leader. Matt 7:15-20; 2 Thess 2:9-12

 How did the GB decide they were the “faithful and discreet slave”/house “steward”?  Were they appointed by Jesus Christ?

 “However, further careful study and prayerful meditation indicate that our understanding of Jesus’ words about the faithful and discreet slave needs to be clarified.” W 13/7/15  pp 20-25

“clarified”…which was added to the long list of “Beliefs Clarified”; all requiring careful study and prayerful meditation.  How many flip-flops of just one doctrine on that list required changing over the years, but during its heyday was called "truth"?  How many people were held reliable to upholding a facade called "truth"?  

These men are not prophets, and not inspired. Yet, this “careful study and prayerful meditation” somehow led to a most definite appointment by Jesus Christ without any involvement of inspiration; which Moses most definitely received from God during his entire assignment.    

“Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’  Acts 3:17-23

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Thinking said:

1) Moses ...he was a murderer before he was ever given his assignment

I disagree here. Take a look into the account of how Moses was brought forth. ALL first born males at that time were to be killed ( Exodus 1:16-22). This was to prevent the Israelite nation from overtaking the Egyptians. Moses was chosen long before he was a murderer, from before the womb. The same cannot be said of the past gb members, nor the current ones.  So assimilating Moses to the gb is not only false, but wishful thinking on both the part of jws and the gb themselves. 

 

16 hours ago, Thinking said:

and at nearing the end of their journey...due to such a heavy load upon him and stresses that none of us could bear...he actually became self righteous and proud..and I am imagining that attitude  would not have happened over night or just when he walked and stood before the Rock..

all Jehovah told Moses To do was to SPEAK to the rock...but no...Moses first yelled abuse at the people.( I dont really blame him but he was not ordered to do that ) 

he had no right to do that.

And  Moses becoming full of himself and his importance ( pride ) he felt HE had to do MORE than what was asked of him.

He struck the rock ..not once...but his personal decision and leaning on his own Underderstanding and reasonings...he struck TWICE..because he deemed the stupid people needed that..( do you or have you ever felt that the GB have beaten you with their rod ) ...and then he gathered the miracle to himself by saying ..
SHALL WE....As we all know it had nothing to do with him..but everything to do with Jehovah...( he took the glory to himself and ignored Jehovah )

I agree here with what you have said, but it doesn't matter much because I do not assimilate Moses to the gb. To answer your question, no I have never felt the gb have beaten me, as they are not above me and have NO authority over me, they are men just as I am. 

 

17 hours ago, Thinking said:

now we all know he was disciplined very harshly later for that but what most miss...and this is a very important point...is Jehovah still expected the People to follow his instructions that he gave to Moses.....he STILL USED the about to be disciplined Moses....and he EXPECTED the people to follow those instructions ...because they never came from Moses but Him.

This leadership was dissolved with the coming of Jesus, as stated in 1 Timothy 2:5.

17 hours ago, Thinking said:

........because there is no human that can rule over or govern his people on this earth..and he knew that all along...he knew whoever takes authoritarian position over his gathered   people will commit such grave errors..

I think here we are agreeing to what I stated above, but not completely. 

17 hours ago, Thinking said:

the point being is Jehovah will always discipline those he allows authority and those who claim to have it....

just as any good father would do. We too are disciplined just as.

17 hours ago, Thinking said:

Until MOSES death he still expected the people to follow his instructions...as his job was still yet to be completed....nobody fled the camp after Moses verbal abuse of them or harsh display of frustration and piety....they stayed...and trusted Jehovah..to handle the situation..

so too today...we must trust that Jehovah knows what he is doing...

oh yes, and as I stated above, our leader is Jesus, not Moses, not some self appointed gb, not anyone else. Agreed, God knows exactly what He is doing, thus the reason why He abolished that sort of religious headship and brought us closer individually.

 

 

 

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@Shiwiii Thank you for understanding me and for defending my point of view. 

I truly think that @Arauna understood every word that I wrote, but she just wants to make trouble for me. 

Unfortunately @Arauna  does not understand the difference between obedience to GOD as opposed to obedience to the GB and it's 2 orgs ( Wt & CCJW ). 

A true Christian knows that Yeshua / Jesus came to earth to die as a ransom for Adam's sin. It was planned even before he was born as a human. 

But the death of any other human is NOT PLANNED out before hand. And the Matthew 12 v 9 -12 scripture still stands. 

I honestly don't believe that those people in the 1st century would have even thought about blood transfusions. The scripture is addressed not to Jews but to the people of the nations, and they would have been used to seeing people drinking blood as it was not uncommon. 

 Acts 15 v 19 & 20 

" Therefore, my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, 20  but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood". 

Verse 14 says.. " Symʹe·onq has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name."

This directive was given to the Gentiles. It was about not drinking blood. 

The GB would know this for sure and in a way they prove it by allowing 'Blood Fractions' which are taken from whole blood. If they really believed blood was so sacred they would not agree to it being taken out of the body to be divided into parts. 

Christ's blood was something totally different. He was a perfect human and his blood was perfect and therefore the perfect offering. And the Anointed partake of that perfect 'blood' to be ONE with Christ. 

@James Thomas Rook Jr. 's  comment is almost unbelievable :-

" I have never even met anyone that is "loyal to the Governing Body".

They do try to be loyal to God ...by obeying the non-inspired and all to often fallible and flat wrong, sometimes goofy self-aggrandizing teachings of the GB. "

I hope that is all supposed to be a joke.  How can the above comment be, being 'loyal to God' ?

Realising that the GB are ' non-inspired and all to often fallible and flat wrong ' and  'goofy self-aggrandizing', then anyone would not obey them. Blind men leading the blind. 

By obeying them that is being loyal to them, in fact it is almost worshipping them. 

There is so much more to answer, so many other comments. But I'll leave you with JTR Jr's comment about the GB ;-

They alone are allowed to apostatize from their previous teachings, without severe punishment.

And what does that tell you ?  They have exalted themselves above all others. 

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37 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

The GB would know this for sure and in a way they prove it by allowing 'Blood Fractions' which are taken from whole blood. If they really believed blood was so sacred they would not agree to it being taken out of the body to be divided into parts. 

Christ's blood was something totally different. He was a perfect human and his blood was perfect and therefore the perfect offering. And the Anointed partake of that perfect 'blood' to be ONE with Christ. 

this

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On 4/23/2020 at 6:14 AM, 4Jah2me said:

@Shiwiii Thank you for understanding me and for defending my point of view. 

I truly think that @Arauna understood every word that I wrote, but she just wants to make trouble for me. 

Unfortunately @Arauna  does not understand the difference between obedience to GOD as opposed to obedience to the GB and it's 2 orgs ( Wt & CCJW ). 

A true Christian knows that Yeshua / Jesus came to earth to die as a ransom for Adam's sin. It was planned even before he was born as a human. 

But the death of any other human is NOT PLANNED out before hand. And the Matthew 12 v 9 -12 scripture still stands. 

I honestly don't believe that those people in the 1st century would have even thought about blood transfusions. The scripture is addressed not to Jews but to the people of the nations, and they would have been used to seeing people drinking blood as it was not uncommon. 

 Acts 15 v 19 & 20 

" Therefore, my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, 20  but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood". 

Verse 14 says.. " Symʹe·onq has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name."

This directive was given to the Gentiles. It was about not drinking blood. 

The GB would know this for sure and in a way they prove it by allowing 'Blood Fractions' which are taken from whole blood. If they really believed blood was so sacred they would not agree to it being taken out of the body to be divided into parts. 

Christ's blood was something totally different. He was a perfect human and his blood was perfect and therefore the perfect offering. And the Anointed partake of that perfect 'blood' to be ONE with Christ. 

@James Thomas Rook Jr. 's  comment is almost unbelievable :-

" I have never even met anyone that is "loyal to the Governing Body".

They do try to be loyal to God ...by obeying the non-inspired and all to often fallible and flat wrong, sometimes goofy self-aggrandizing teachings of the GB. "

I hope that is all supposed to be a joke.  How can the above comment be, being 'loyal to God' ?

Realising that the GB are ' non-inspired and all to often fallible and flat wrong ' and  'goofy self-aggrandizing', then anyone would not obey them. Blind men leading the blind. 

By obeying them that is being loyal to them, in fact it is almost worshipping them. 

There is so much more to answer, so many other comments. But I'll leave you with JTR Jr's comment about the GB ;-

They alone are allowed to apostatize from their previous teachings, without severe punishment.

And what does that tell you ?  They have exalted themselves above all others. 

No one can know who is anointed or not...that is between Jehovah and them...
It’s one of the reasons you would be a fool to worship the GB...never alone the clear scriptural warnings against it.

The organization exists as a tool to get the basic preaching work done....and just as there was a Judas working alongside of the apostles and worked with Jesus....so too there will be a Judas element at the top..... who ever Gods people are...and where ever they are.

It Is true what you say...Moses was known when he was born and Jehovah intended to use him in his assignment...but he was still a murderer before he took up that assignment ...

Time will sort many of us out......you are actually incredibly self righteous and have marked so many of us...unjustly so.......and you don’t even know that is what you are doing.

instead why not try to develop the attitude that Paul had....because only Jesus is going to correct the errors that you see...and that we see also...and the confusions .

Keep in mind he was talking to Gods People here...followers of Christ...

why do you think it will be any different today?

Phillipians 1:15,18 NIV

It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defence of the gospel.

the former preach Christ out of selfish ambition not sincerely, supposing that tthey can stir up trouble for me while I am in my chains.

BUT WHAT DOES IT MATTER the important thing is that in every way, wether from FALSE motives or TRUE Christ is preached .

And because of this I rejoice. Yes and I will continue to rejoice.

By The way even sporting organisations have a Governing Body to organise their body of members...

And our GB will stand before their God for accountability just as you and I will....or do you not trust Jehovah to be fair and Just?

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On 4/23/2020 at 12:44 AM, 4Jah2me said:

Unfortunately @Arauna  does not understand the difference between obedience to GOD as opposed to obedience to the GB and it's 2 orgs (

Read my comment above about my daughter with cancer and a day-long surgery.  I have experience with abstinence of blood and have tasted that jehovah is good.  You are the one who regularly mocks me and then play the victim......  not nice.

Always insinuating that my loyalty to GB is greater than my obedience to God when I merely obey jehovah's word. You are the one who laments that saving a life (maybe your own) as more important than obedience to God. 

Did you know that receiving serum from and animal or human or the plasma exposes one to the viruses and some diseases the donor has had?  Minute pathogens- some, we have not yet discovered.

After the experience with my daughter, and she survived, I studied the impact if blood and found that jehovah knows best. If I had allowed the doctors to give her blood - she would have died from anaphylactic shock.

With HIV so rampant and other unknown entities, I would rather abstain from blood or blood particles.

I used hydroxychloroquine successfully when I was extremely ill during this lockdown.   I am still in quaranteen and will have myself checked for antibodies for Corona once this lockdown is over. I will be 68 next birthday...... so I am not a spring chicken and I do have an underlying health issue.......and I did not need plasma.

Obeying jehovah brings benefits - there are many things we do not understand and when we remember our limitations in humility, He will bless us.

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@Arauna  I think now you are 'playing the victim'.   How many times have you accused others of OCD ?

And I quote you, " You are the one who laments that saving a life (maybe your own) as more important than obedience to God." 

You see how sly you are ?   “Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?

Do you see the similarity ? Well the similarity is that you too twist the truth and make accusing comments. 

Your comment suggests that I'm only interested in trying to save my own life. It also suggests that my 'disobedience' is toward God, whereas you really know that my 'disobedience' is toward the GB of the CCJW.  In this way you serve the devil well. 

When you say that you obey Jehovah's word, but in reality you obey the GB's version of God's word. You do that because you believe that the GB are the F&DS. So here we have to differ. 

As for you and your family, I wish you all good health and happiness. But I will probably continue to disagree with much that you say. My love is for God and Christ, not for the GB and CCJW. 

 

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@Thinking Quote "No one can know who is anointed or not...that is between Jehovah and them..

 

Zechariah 8:23

“This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”’”

How can this scripture be fulfilled if, to quote you, "No one can know who is anointed or not...that is between Jehovah and them" ?

But on the other hand, the GB have deliberately made themselves known worldwide, whilst suppressing their FELLOW SLAVES. 

Quote "The organization exists as a tool to get the basic preaching work done."

Oh how wonderful it would be if that were so. If the GB and the rest of the Leaders / Elders didn't use traditions of men and man made rules to rule it over the congregation. IF people were left to use their own Bible based conscience. 

And of course IF the GB actually knew truth from God through Christ. 

The Apostle Paul was talking at a time when Christianity was truth. It was not segregated. But now the CCJW has proved itself to be as bad as any other part of Christendom.  There is a need for a True Anointed to appear. 

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