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Baptism of Children by Jehovah's Witnesses

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I do not see why people take issue to a young one being baptized. As long as the young one has learnt about God, understand Scripture and a list of other things, he or she can be baptized should they seek it. This goes hand in hand with everything pertaining to the origin of baptism as a whole, and what John did in regards to what it represented other than forgiveness of sin, etc. There is a historical factor played into all of this.

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On 2/24/2019 at 5:01 AM, Space Merchant said:

I do not see why people take issue to a young one being baptized. As long as the young one has learnt about God, understand Scripture and a list of other things, he or she can be baptized should they seek it. This goes hand in hand with everything pertaining to the origin of baptism as a whole, and what John did in regards to what it represented other than forgiveness of sin, etc. There is a historical factor played into all of this.

I think the reason why is because of how the wt holds it over the children in such a way that they are shunned if the child makes a mistake, as children usually do. This takes the authority away from the parents to teach and guide their children and gives it to the wt. Such a decision should not be made by children, but rather when they become adults and are fully informed of the repercussions of not following the company policy. 

as far as the origin of baptism as a whole, I do not recall of an instance of a child being baptized in the Bible. In fact Jesus Himself was not until He reached the age of 30, and since He is our guide and example, shouldn't we also adhere to His standard/example? 

How can a child understand the concept of repentance when they in general, commit the same mistakes over and over?   They can't, that's why there are age appropriate punishments.  

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

I think the reason why is because of how the wt holds it over the children in such a way that they are shunned if the child makes a mistake, as children usually do. This takes the authority away from the parents to teach and guide their children and gives it to the wt. Such a decision should not be made by children, but rather when they become adults and are fully informed of the repercussions of not following the company policy. 

On the contrary, it isn't solely the Watchtower who profess baptism in this regard. Anyone, even that of a child, who has professed and applied teaches of the Scripture, dedicated to being a follower of the Christ and adhere to his God, etc. are able and willing. Young ones who do seek baptism understand this means, and it enables them do do more for God. You'd be surprise of how willing some children are to do God's Will just as many before them - I made this point months ago, and as such, still stands in accordance with Scripture.

After all, heed what was said, go ye therefore, and teach all nations.

Parents can still teach their children, as well as the church itself. Is this of an issue for you because such isn't alien in the realm of Christendom.

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

as far as the origin of baptism as a whole, I do not recall of an instance of a child being baptized in the Bible. In fact Jesus Himself was not until He reached the age of 30, and since He is our guide and example, shouldn't we also adhere to His standard/example? 

Again, another misunderstanding of my words. Regarding the origin of Baptism itself, to be specific, as to the representation of the Jordan River, the symbolism behind it, when people has learnt about God, and clearly understand Scripture, he or she can be baptized should they seek it. I recall saying something along the lines before, regarding this, that in this regard, the follower is now following the teachings of this teacher, in turn, they are all not learning about God in unison, with new and old disciples; they all have a common goal as baptized brothers and sisters, in union with the Christ.

You do realize as to the symbolism regarding the people of Israel, do you not? Also in regards to Jesus yes, we do follow his example and the like, and it is not unknown to what he and all the Jews professed, from childhood into adulthood, in which both Mary and Joseph had taught him, in which Zechariah and Elizabeth had taught John.

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

How can a child understand the concept of repentance when they in general, commit the same mistakes over and over?   They can't, that's why there are age appropriate punishments.  

We can teach our children to read and write, which is done by parents, guardians, older folk of the same blood, and those in educational and or teaching institutions. In this sense, we can teach our children, something of which I am very adamant about and had professed in a number of times. In regards to Jesus, when he was very young, his parents had taught him, in regards to the Law found in Deuteronomy, which is still professed today by many, we are to observe, recite, read, and learn who the God of Israel is, reasons why when Jesus professed Shema Yisrael it points back to the Law found in the Old Testament; this same Law of which even Paul professed in 1 Corinthians.

Education is always key, especially when it comes to spiritual education. By means of such, we can teach our children about God, as well as what is good and what is bad. All people have an opportunity to learn about God and be baptized, even children, who seek to learn and understand that God, literate enough to read Scripture, and to understand, they too can learn and be baptized.

Do not underestimate children who are capable of reading and understanding the Scriptures, just as God opened his hand to you, he does the same to children who seek to learn about him, to understand him, about his Son, and the Kingdom; in which what it will bring forth to mankind.

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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

On the contrary, it isn't solely the Watchtower who profess baptism in this regard. Anyone, even that of a child, who has professed and applied teaches of the Scripture, dedicated to being a follower of the Christ and adhere to his God, etc. are able and willing. Young ones who do seek baptism understand this means, and it enables them do do more for God. You'd be surprise of how willing some children are to do God's Will just as many before them - I made this point months ago, and as such, still stands in accordance with Scripture.

After all, heed what was said, go ye therefore, and teach all nations.

Parents can still teach their children, as well as the church itself. Is this of an issue for you because such isn't alien in the realm of Christendom.

no one argues that children are capable of aligning with God and naturally some do. However, child baptism is not spoken of in the Bible. There are many scriptures about teaching them, but none about baptizing them. You are twisting scripture to support your position on children. The scripture states what Jesus said to His disciples and even then the jw falls short on exactly how Jesus said to baptize. 

18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[

    Hello guest!
] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

 

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Again, another misunderstanding of my words. Regarding the origin of Baptism itself, to be specific, as to the representation of the Jordan River, the symbolism behind it, when people has learnt about God, and clearly understand Scripture, he or she can be baptized should they seek it. I recall saying something along the lines before, regarding this, that in this regard, the follower is now following the teachings of this teacher, in turn, they are all not learning about God in unison, with new and old disciples; they all have a common goal as baptized brothers and sisters, in union with the Christ.

You do realize as to the symbolism regarding the people of Israel, do you not? Also in regards to Jesus yes, we do follow his example and the like, and it is not unknown to what he and all the Jews professed, from childhood into adulthood, in which both Mary and Joseph had taught him, in which Zechariah and Elizabeth had taught John.

this whole statement here provides nothing to the conversation of child baptism. 

 

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

We can teach our children to read and write, which is done by parents, guardians, older folk of the same blood, and those in educational and or teaching institutions. In this sense, we can teach our children, something of which I am very adamant about and had professed in a number of times. In regards to Jesus, when he was very young, his parents had taught him, in regards to the Law found in Deuteronomy, which is still professed today by many, we are to observe, recite, read, and learn who the God of Israel is, reasons why when Jesus professed Shema Yisrael it points back to the Law found in the Old Testament; this same Law of which even Paul professed in 1 Corinthians.

Education is always key, especially when it comes to spiritual education. By means of such, we can teach our children about God, as well as what is good and what is bad. All people have an opportunity to learn about God and be baptized, even children, who seek to learn and understand that God, literate enough to read Scripture, and to understand, they too can learn and be baptized.

Do not underestimate children who are capable of reading and understanding the Scriptures, just as God opened his hand to you, he does the same to children who seek to learn about him, to understand him, about his Son, and the Kingdom; in which what it will bring forth to mankind.

again, How can a child understand the concept of repentance when they in general, commit the same mistakes over and over?   They can't, that's why there are age appropriate punishments.  I wrote this again because it really is this simple, Children learn from their parents and by experiences, but that does not give them the ability to understand consequences of all sorts. For instance, a child does not comprehend the consequence of failure to obey the law, they just know it is bad or they might get thrown in jail, not the actual consequences. 

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When you've been a JW and you've seen things first hand it's quite funny to read other people's ideas that have not been in the situations. 

Here in the UK congregations are quite competitive and baptisms is one way. At assemblies there is always this 'excitement' about which congregation will be having someone baptised. Two of our daughters (both over twenty) got baptised, one in each of two consecutive assemblies. At one of the assemblies one of our daughters was the only person baptised and so she had the baptism talk 'all to herself', though of course it was to the whole assembly. But it was noticeable that some people were not too happy. Once again I know what some here will say, they will say it is all in my mind :) 

However, in my opinion, a lot of baptisms of children are for the wrong reasons. Competition within a congregation and competition between one congregation and another. It's not healthy, and not spiritually good, to have such competition. So you folks that think it's ok for 5 year olds, well it's your way of thinking. But is it God's way of thinking ? Because that is what is most important. 

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8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

When you've been a JW and you've seen things first hand it's quite funny to read other people's ideas that have not been in the situations. 

Here in the UK congregations are quite competitive and baptisms is one way. At assemblies there is always this 'excitement' about which congregation will be having someone baptised. Two of our daughters (both over twenty) got baptised, one in each of two consecutive assemblies. At one of the assemblies one of our daughters was the only person baptised and so she had the baptism talk 'all to herself', though of course it was to the whole assembly. But it was noticeable that some people were not too happy. Once again I know what some here will say, they will say it is all in my mind :)

However, in my opinion, a lot of baptisms of children are for the wrong reasons. Competition within a congregation and competition between one congregation and another. It's not healthy, and not spiritually good, to have such competition. So you folks that think it's ok for 5 year olds, well it's your way of thinking. But is it God's way of thinking ? Because that is what is most important. 

Right.  Does God need us to be baptized at all? Nope.

Does it do us some good? yep, but it is not required. Thus it is not required of anyone per Luke 23

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him,[

    Hello guest!
] saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

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On 2/25/2019 at 4:45 PM, Shiwiii said:

no one argues that children are capable of aligning with God and naturally some do. However, child baptism is not spoken of in the Bible. There are many scriptures about teaching them, but none about baptizing them. You are twisting scripture to support your position on children. The scripture states what Jesus said to His disciples and even then the jw falls short on exactly how Jesus said to baptize. 

The Bible speaks of Baptism of people of all nations, and as far as everyone here knows, young ones are people, persons as well. Be it a young person, or an older folk, as long as they seek it, individuals who demonstrate and show as such, hearing and believing the truth about God and his Kingdom, believing that God had sent the Lord, etc. glorifying the one and True God of all people – baptism is an option, sought after by God fearing people who are mature spiritually, who wants to follow the teachings of the teacher, the one who had been sent, Christ Jesus. Indeed, there are many Scriptures of teaching them, and there are Scriptures in regard to those who accept the truth of what is written and become baptized, those to take up the truth, they and their households are baptized; all persons of all nations. Do not accuse me of twisting Scripture, for such a thing I have not done ever, moreover, I uttered no more than a snippet of Matthew 28:18, and haven’t gone on about what I had addressed before so how on God’s earth am I twisting Scriptures if you do not mind me asking? Somehow a nation of people is totally alien of young ones, who are evidently within the households of people from one nation to the next. That being said, the only position I support is what was professed in the Scripture itself regarding those who take up the word, and sought baptism, and glorying the one and True God.

On 2/25/2019 at 4:45 PM, Shiwiii said:

18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[

    Hello guest!
] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

What Jesus said has grander context to it. When it comes to Baptism, we must recognize that God the Father himself, YHWH, since very clear and concise as to why this is – that he is the creator, he is the one life giver, the foundation of life. In addition, we learn from what the Bible conveys, regarding obtainable salvation whereas humans of mankind can gain salvation by recognizing the role of the Son, Christ Jesus, in God’s Purpose and Will, and we see what was played out very later on in the New Testament beyond the Evangelical accounts, and as to how many, many people became followers of the teacher; the disciple following the teachings of the teacher, as stated. Lastly, we must also be aware, knowing the role of God’s Holy Spirit. Reasons why is because God uses his spirit to give life, in fact, God’s spirit hath made both you, I and every one of us here on this forum, outside of it, to be short, every of us of mankind, humans, in all. By means of the spirit that God gives, it enables his spoken word to humans, molded and or moved by God’s Spirit and more so, it enables us to do the Purpose and Will of God, just as Jesus, and many others have, something of which Paul had addressed; and or what is written. It is no surprise of what you support and what is ignored, the truth of the matter, in regard to what Jesus met in this passage, regarding this, I will leave it at that. I recall I said to you and others to always check the references, perhaps you should do the same for this passage.

On 2/25/2019 at 4:45 PM, Shiwiii said:

this whole statement here provides nothing to the conversation of child baptism. 

Actually it does, hence my statement, made to what you have mentioned, holds steadfast. It pertains to the Baptism being done at the Jordan River, and as to why John was baptizing the people, his people there. Because not many people know the origins of baptism well, some churches out there believe only infants should be baptism, and others, only adults. Others will sprinkle, while others will immerse. Those who seek to become baptized are those who be means heard the word of God and or received his spirit, glorying God in the process. Clearly such pertains to those who are literate, and able to comprehend what has been taught and or learnt from God's Word, something of which I addressed several times before.

On 2/25/2019 at 4:45 PM, Shiwiii said:

again, How can a child understand the concept of repentance when they in general, commit the same mistakes over and over?   They can't, that's why there are age appropriate punishments.  I wrote this again because it really is this simple, Children learn from their parents and by experiences, but that does not give them the ability to understand consequences of all sorts. For instance, a child does not comprehend the consequence of failure to obey the law, they just know it is bad or they might get thrown in jail, not the actual consequences. 

Everyone makes mistakes, even children, but it does not stop them from being taught what repentance actually is, as is with right and wrong, good and bad, regarding repentance, what the action of repenting is regarding sincere regret or remorse over wrong doing, so the ability to teach such should not be withheld from them whatsoever. And it is good how you mention what you said about parents, just as Jesus was taught by Mary and Joseph, parents today can teach their children on such matters, even about repentance, read to them from the Scriptures of such examples, even that of those, who are for God, who indeed had made mistakes and showed genuine repentance to return into the hands of God our Father.

A child who is able to learn is capable of comprehending right from wrong, even the like of consequences that stem from wrong doing. Not only such is taught by parents, pertaining to teaching children about the law, this is done even in the schools to which such is also taught to children, usually in form of clubs that take place during school hours or afterwards, moreover, yes young ones know that there are things, negative, that is done it should land a wrongdoer in jail, as for consequences that lead up to such a thing, this can be learnt, i.e. shoplifting results in jailtime, consequence, such actions becomes part of the culprit’s record or the consequence of crossing the street can be either death and or injury, and so forth, on the other side of the spectrum, young ones who are not taught such things take actions upon themselves worrying little of the consequence and or the end result of said actions, but by then it is far too late.

Regarding all things Scriptural and of God, we teach our children these things, again, even about repentance, for what the Bible conveys shouldn’t be withheld, even to those who are young and seek to learn and become mature spiritually.

That being said, man, woman, boy, or girl, let’s throw in the elderly folk too, should they be seeking to gain spiritual maturity, and willfully seeking baptism, wanting to take up that mantle of responsibility. And yes, all faithful persons tend to make mistakes, there’s no denial of such from anyone, but like faithful persons, that stand back up after they had fell down or stumbled.

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On 2/25/2019 at 5:04 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

When you've been a JW and you've seen things first hand it's quite funny to read other people's ideas that have not been in the situations. 

No one here is throwing ideas. Death unto Life isn’t a concept practiced by a sole group, despite the differs in denomination, it is as clear as day in the history behind it, as is, with what can be seen from a birds eye view of Israel’s location in regards to the Jordan River.

The people are taught about God, they are literate enough to know and accept, and seek to learn and seek baptism, thus being made disciples.

On 2/25/2019 at 5:04 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Here in the UK congregations are quite competitive and baptisms is one way. At assemblies there is always this 'excitement' about which congregation will be having someone baptised. Two of our daughters (both over twenty) got baptised, one in each of two consecutive assemblies. At one of the assemblies one of our daughters was the only person baptised and so she had the baptism talk 'all to herself', though of course it was to the whole assembly. But it was noticeable that some people were not too happy. Once again I know what some here will say, they will say it is all in my mind :)

Baptism is always an excitement for others, it also encourages others to seek it too, nonetheless, there is always a great sense of overjoy on an excessive level.

In my case, I’ve always been wanting to learn more about God despite my current teacher at the time, my own father, and I had sought baptism as a child, and eventually I did get baptized in the country of one of my parents during the closing weeks of summer when we went there, it was done at Basenble , in English, Bassin Bleu, it is not too far off from La Vallee de Jacmel. 5 people, including me, was baptized that day, the youngest among us was age 7, I knew this because it was brought up a number of times and this kid (at the time) was just as God fearing as the rest of us, the oldest was about 30-33. We were told what baptism, regarding the symbolism regarding what John did, we were told this too, Scripture pertaining to this was also brought forth. As this was going on, there was joy by all who were present, some were even singing, even some tourists were present, who occasionally visit Bassin Bleu bore witness and though some were religious or not, they applauded and were astounded. One of the others, who was baptized at the age of 14 and a family friend no longer walks this earth for he perished, was killed years later during the earthquake. If he was alive right now, he trails me by 6-7 years. It’s not unknown that such ones like him are in God’s memory, and he will be brought back to life by means of the hope itself – The Resurrection.

If you are wondering what that place is, this is what it looks like:

image.pngo

Tourist, to this day, go there all the time, and this area is also used by the natives, in the country.

image.png

image.png

Perhaps they were not happy due to that day there was a single soul there, not many smiles then. Then again, this sole situation doesn’t define everyone else, take up the baptism as much as I have a disdain for others in this regard, they end up the as you are in this situation, as is with, as is with all.

On 2/25/2019 at 5:04 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

However, in my opinion, a lot of baptisms of children are for the wrong reasons. Competition within a congregation and competition between one congregation and another. It's not healthy, and not spiritually good, to have such competition. So you folks that think it's ok for 5 year olds, well it's your way of thinking. But is it God's way of thinking ? Because that is what is most important. 

Baptism is and always will be encouraged, but at the end of the day, it is up to the person in question who, is hard-pressed in seeking and glorifying God and wanting to progress in the spiritual domain. How is there competition? Any Christian who is baptized and or knows one of blood and or a friend who is going to be and or is baptized is over joyed.

Actually it isn’t a way of thinking. When it comes to Baptism, there is a clear reason as to why I brought up the very origin of it, which goes back to the customs professed by God’s people when they were limited to what they can or cannot do for a period of time, whereas baptism itself is not too far from ritual washing, hence what I had addressed months ago.

God’s way of thinking is indeed important, now that you have said that, it goes back to what you said about spiritual wisdom. God wants the people to know who he is, and what he has done, regarding Jesus, any Jew, even to this day, from the time they can speak and can understand, they are taught the Shema, and they learn and recite it, which also relates to learning about and recognizing the True God himself and what his Kingdom will bring, since such things go hand in hand.

If the 5 year old is ready and willing, has dedicated him or herself seeking the truth of the Scriptures, wanting to not just learn about God, but become close to him as a friend and apply his Word, the teachings of his Son, glorying God and so forth, then there is no problem with that, and in regards to the symbolism of Baptism regarding John the Baptist, Baptism is a passing through from death unto life and such enables one to fully take up self-sacrifice and spiritual servitude to the one True God – YHWH.

It should be known that the Bible does not specify an age at which a person should get baptized i.e. this so called age requirement profess is as twisted as straw of twizzlers. But, a young one who is willing to learn, wanting to seek baptism can benefit from parents, peers, and or other to help them get on this path.

 However, parents can benefit from reflecting on what it means to make a disciple.

@Matthew9969 I suggest reading Galatians 4.

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On 2/27/2019 at 10:36 AM, Space Merchant said:

The Bible speaks of Baptism of people of all nations, and as far as everyone here knows, young ones are people, persons as well.

stretching it a bit aren't we? I mean on a full on technicality yes you are correct, but if we are going to use logic and common sense, you fail. If you really want to believe this , go right ahead, the rest of us will continue in the real world. 

 

On 2/27/2019 at 10:36 AM, Space Merchant said:

What Jesus said has grander context to it. When it comes to Baptism, we must recognize that God the Father himself, YHWH, since very clear and concise as to why this is – that he is the creator, he is the one life giver, the foundation of life. In addition, we learn from what the Bible conveys, regarding obtainable salvation whereas humans of mankind can gain salvation by recognizing the role of the Son, Christ Jesus, in God’s Purpose and Will, and we see what was played out very later on in the New Testament beyond the Evangelical accounts, and as to how many, many people became followers of the teacher; the disciple following the teachings of the teacher, as stated. Lastly, we must also be aware, knowing the role of God’s Holy Spirit. Reasons why is because God uses his spirit to give life, in fact, God’s spirit hath made both you, I and every one of us here on this forum, outside of it, to be short, every of us of mankind, humans, in all. By means of the spirit that God gives, it enables his spoken word to humans, molded and or moved by God’s Spirit and more so, it enables us to do the Purpose and Will of God, just as Jesus, and many others have, something of which Paul had addressed; and or what is written. It is no surprise of what you support and what is ignored, the truth of the matter, in regard to what Jesus met in this passage, regarding this, I will leave it at that. I recall I said to you and others to always check the references, perhaps you should do the same for this passage.

if Jesus is our example and this was how He said to do it, then why is it not adhered to? Oh, that's right, because YOU and the wt know better. Got it. 

 

On 2/27/2019 at 10:36 AM, Space Merchant said:

The Bible speaks of Baptism of people of all nations, and as far as everyone here knows, young ones are people, persons as well. Be it a young person, or an older folk, as long as they seek it, individuals who demonstrate and show as such, hearing and believing the truth about God and his Kingdom, believing that God had sent the Lord, etc. glorifying the one and True God of all people – baptism is an option, sought after by God fearing people who are mature spiritually, who wants to follow the teachings of the teacher, the one who had been sent, Christ Jesus. Indeed, there are many Scriptures of teaching them, and there are Scriptures in regard to those who accept the truth of what is written and become baptized, those to take up the truth, they and their households are baptized; all persons of all nations. Do not accuse me of twisting Scripture, for such a thing I have not done ever, moreover, I uttered no more than a snippet of Matthew 28:18, and haven’t gone on about what I had addressed before so how on God’s earth am I twisting Scriptures if you do not mind me asking? Somehow a nation of people is totally alien of young ones, who are evidently within the households of people from one nation to the next. That being said, the only position I support is what was professed in the Scripture itself regarding those who take up the word, and sought baptism, and glorying the one and True God.

What Jesus said has grander context to it. When it comes to Baptism, we must recognize that God the Father himself, YHWH, since very clear and concise as to why this is – that he is the creator, he is the one life giver, the foundation of life. In addition, we learn from what the Bible conveys, regarding obtainable salvation whereas humans of mankind can gain salvation by recognizing the role of the Son, Christ Jesus, in God’s Purpose and Will, and we see what was played out very later on in the New Testament beyond the Evangelical accounts, and as to how many, many people became followers of the teacher; the disciple following the teachings of the teacher, as stated. Lastly, we must also be aware, knowing the role of God’s Holy Spirit. Reasons why is because God uses his spirit to give life, in fact, God’s spirit hath made both you, I and every one of us here on this forum, outside of it, to be short, every of us of mankind, humans, in all. By means of the spirit that God gives, it enables his spoken word to humans, molded and or moved by God’s Spirit and more so, it enables us to do the Purpose and Will of God, just as Jesus, and many others have, something of which Paul had addressed; and or what is written. It is no surprise of what you support and what is ignored, the truth of the matter, in regard to what Jesus met in this passage, regarding this, I will leave it at that. I recall I said to you and others to always check the references, perhaps you should do the same for this passage.

Actually it does, hence my statement, made to what you have mentioned, holds steadfast. It pertains to the Baptism being done at the Jordan River, and as to why John was baptizing the people, his people there. Because not many people know the origins of baptism well, some churches out there believe only infants should be baptism, and others, only adults. Others will sprinkle, while others will immerse. Those who seek to become baptized are those who be means heard the word of God and or received his spirit, glorying God in the process. Clearly such pertains to those who are literate, and able to comprehend what has been taught and or learnt from God's Word, something of which I addressed several times before.

Everyone makes mistakes, even children, but it does not stop them from being taught what repentance actually is, as is with right and wrong, good and bad, regarding repentance, what the action of repenting is regarding sincere regret or remorse over wrong doing, so the ability to teach such should not be withheld from them whatsoever. And it is good how you mention what you said about parents, just as Jesus was taught by Mary and Joseph, parents today can teach their children on such matters, even about repentance, read to them from the Scriptures of such examples, even that of those, who are for God, who indeed had made mistakes and showed genuine repentance to return into the hands of God our Father.

A child who is able to learn is capable of comprehending right from wrong, even the like of consequences that stem from wrong doing. Not only such is taught by parents, pertaining to teaching children about the law, this is done even in the schools to which such is also taught to children, usually in form of clubs that take place during school hours or afterwards, moreover, yes young ones know that there are things, negative, that is done it should land a wrongdoer in jail, as for consequences that lead up to such a thing, this can be learnt, i.e. shoplifting results in jailtime, consequence, such actions becomes part of the culprit’s record or the consequence of crossing the street can be either death and or injury, and so forth, on the other side of the spectrum, young ones who are not taught such things take actions upon themselves worrying little of the consequence and or the end result of said actions, but by then it is far too late.

Regarding all things Scriptural and of God, we teach our children these things, again, even about repentance, for what the Bible conveys shouldn’t be withheld, even to those who are young and seek to learn and become mature spiritually.

That being said, man, woman, boy, or girl, let’s throw in the elderly folk too, should they be seeking to gain spiritual maturity, and willfully seeking baptism, wanting to take up that mantle of responsibility. And yes, all faithful persons tend to make mistakes, there’s no denial of such from anyone, but like faithful persons, that stand back up after they had fell down or stumbled.

I didn't even read this past a few sentences, why? because it is the same thing from you. A twist or some convoluted definition of a word that technically makes you seem correct. Again, believe what you'd like and I'll do as well. Those of us who reside in the real world will continue to understand implications of words and context just fine. 

 

Just curious, why is it that every answer you give to me has this same ring to it? It always comes back to a broad definition that makes your argument technically correct even when you know it isn't?   

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If JW religion is ready to accept baptism of underage /minor children (5-17 year of age) maybe parents and elders will consider how marriage of such children isn't wrong idea too. :)))) 

If this children are able (read - mature) to make decision of dedication to God (for a life time), so what can be hard/difficult for them to dedicate life in marriage to other person? What a logic?! haha 

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18 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

stretching it a bit aren't we? I mean on a full on technicality yes you are correct, but if we are going to use logic and common sense, you fail. If you really want to believe this , go right ahead, the rest of us will continue in the real world. 

Am I? Not quite. The context of Scripture and all references in relation to that passage speaks truth in this matter. You can continue as you like in the world, and the best thing you can do in regards to such ones is to profess Scripture; and of course mainstream Christendom will be right behind you.

18 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

if Jesus is our example and this was how He said to do it, then why is it not adhered to? Oh, that's right, because YOU and the wt know better. Got it. 

Yes, but one should negate negate what such means regarding that verse. You keep bringing up the Watchtower as if they have 100% say in this. Even outside of the Restorationist Community. No one can negate the fact that when a disciple is baptized, he or she follows the teachings of the teacher.

Got it? There is more context to the verse itself than one realize, why should one simply ignore it?

19 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

didn't even read this past a few sentences, why? because it is the same thing from you. A twist or some convoluted definition of a word that technically makes you seem correct.

Again, I haven't twisted anything regardless to what I said, for I, which is known make a response to a response. There is no twisting of the very fact that those who are willing, those who capable of hearing and receiving the word, and so forth.

You can do what you will, read or not, for what has been said cannot be negated when one can draw context of Scripture, as is with all pertaining baptism.

19 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Just curious, why is it that every answer you give to me has this same ring to it? It always comes back to a broad definition that makes your argument technically correct even when you know it isn't?   

As in what exactly? Whenever a point has been made I make the response, be it positive, negative and or neutral, and on some when one misunderstands what I convey, you are not the first, I speak my peace in this regard.

And how is what I am saying is incorrect exactly? If something is of error, I do not speak of it, when an error is profess, I speak up, other times I seek more research on the matter, and then some.

How so?

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12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If JW religion is ready to accept baptism of underage /minor children (5-17 year of age) maybe parents and elders will consider how marriage of such children isn't wrong idea too. :)))) 

Restorationist wouldn't be caught dead doing that. Sadly, Child Marriage is a legitimate thing, in the United States, in some cases, children/teens are forced to marry their rapist and or abuser. With the whole situation of the new movements running rampant, there are people who are wanting to make change, seeing age as nothing more than a number.

Believe it or not, in some areas the age of consent I believe is 16-18. I know in the UK it is 16, other areas vary.

12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If this children are able (read - mature) to make decision of dedication to God (for a life time), so what can be hard/difficult for them to dedicate life in marriage to other person?

The decision to seek God and follow the teachings of the teacher is up to the individual. Those capable of, willfully hearing the word and so forth. Such ones, as I have, become dedicated to God's thinking, Order, and all things. When one is spiritually mature, he understands Scripture, has read the great book and knows it well, even outside of the it the history of the early Christians and Israelites, etc. Even after baptism, the learning does not stop, it continues, for growing with God by yourself, in this sense, is like a form of training of the body and mind.

12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What a logic?! haha 

I am confused on what you are conveying, saith again?

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@Space Merchant That's one thing. When it comes to being mature Spiritual wise. There are people however that believes in being guilty of sin straight out of the womb and they go and baptize children who have no idea what is going on. That ain't it chief. But yeah, baptism is usually encouraged but it is up to the decision of the individual if they want to be baptized and serve Jehovah God. It not only shows you embrace the teachings, but also wanting to serve God.

Also just a little curious. You mentioned baptism origin, you were referring to the Israelites yes? Both Old and New Testament also? Lastly what place is that where you say you got baptized. 

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16 hours ago, Outta Here said:

It's your logic you are describing here you know.

Frida's logic must've jumped out the window, took an uber to the train station, taking a one way trip to anywhere. 

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3 hours ago, Equivocation said:

That's one thing. When it comes to being mature Spiritual wise. There are people however that believes in being guilty of sin straight out of the womb and they go and baptize children who have no idea what is going on

This alone is unbiblical. A Child, in this sense, an infant, and or baby, shouldn't be baptized at all, and the guilty of sins narrative is absurd. Only those who are capable of hearing the word and the like, seeking God and his Kingdom, and the teachings of his Son, Jesus; such ones can be baptized, regardless, for they seek it, and they shall have, and benefit in their trek of spiritual growth.

That being said, I did talk about this before:

 

3 hours ago, Equivocation said:

That ain't it chief.

Of course.

3 hours ago, Equivocation said:

But yeah, baptism is usually encouraged but it is up to the decision of the individual if they want to be baptized and serve Jehovah God. It not only shows you embrace the teachings, but also wanting to serve God.

Pretty much the jest of what I have been professing throughout since the other Bible discussions elsewhere on here.

3 hours ago, Equivocation said:

Also just a little curious. You mentioned baptism origin, you were referring to the Israelites yes? Both Old and New Testament also?

Yes, ritual washing concerning the Israelites, as is with why John the Baptist baptized his people in the Jordan River itself. Find the river on a map, and look to the left, and look to the right.

3 hours ago, Equivocation said:

Lastly what place is that where you say you got baptized. 

The image shown to Mr. Butler, the location in question is Jacmel, Haiti. Baptized in 1997-1998. So I was quite young, but even before baptism I pressed forth in everything pertaining to Scripture and of God. In my case, I am just as eager as the next guy in wanting to be close to the True God and seeing his great Kingdom, and awaiting for the one of whom he installed to sit at the throne to rid all badness from the earth. Those who I known, who had perished, I wish to see them also. Reasons why since the day I opened a Bible, I continued on ever since, and growing up, some young ones whom I came across, even to this day, even among the homeless, I share the Word and give example. It also plays into the fact that I am a Truther, to some degree.

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16 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

It also plays into the fact that I am a Truther, to some degree.

A Truther?  Another title?  

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12 minutes ago, Witness said:

A Truther?  Another title?  

A Truther is someone who, in this sense, seeks truth to an event and or situation, someone who does not play into the MSM narrative and or conspiracy, let alone government schemes and so forth that is being pushed on to the people on a TV set, phones, etc. what have you. This should be very evident to you, Witness, when time and time again I uttered what I have been saying about accepting conspiracy and or falsehood, which goes back to our very first discussion, and even before that, regarding the very man who debated with me regarding Church Fathers. It is not much of a title, per-say, one is usually called this in regards to what was stated in this response you are reading, and or correlates with the many times I addressed to you about falsehood and conspiracy, unless you've forgotten that?

You once said to me you do not delve too deep into certain things, but I do, to separate truth from lies, and speak truth and refute lies.

That being said, it is a surprise how you missed I brought this up a couple of times when I responded to you on a number of occasions, both directly and indirectly in a sense.

one who believes that the truth about an important subject or event is being concealed from the public by a powerful conspiracy.

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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

You once said to me you do not delve too deep into certain things, but I do, to separate truth from lies, and speak truth and refute lies.

What were those certain things?  Do you remember?  From what I recall they had to do with politics and not scripture.    The term, "Truther" is very foreign to me.  If I remain in Christ, I remain in truth.  "Truther" sounds like a member of a cult.  If you've used it before, I may have skimmed over it when glancing at your rather long posts.  You've probably written a book, just to me, which I won't  finish reading.  Let's not start another one.  :)

 

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      How is this asked of JWs?  The second question not mentioned in the article to the unknowing candidates is:
      “Do you understand that your dedication and baptism IDENTIFY you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with GOD’S SPIRIT-DIRECTED ORGANIZATION? Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism."
      Simply, this type of water baptism does not have God’s approval, but God’s condemnation.  I hope you can perceive this, JWs. Watchtower’s allegations go beyond Christ’s words, expecting your devotion to another Master.  Matt 6:24; Deut 4:2; 12:32; Rev 22:18   Please, notice how you are “marked”, not for survival but for slavery to men and their self-driven desires for unrighteous gains.  Jer 17:10-13 Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      From the 1950 Watchtower publication, “This Means Everlasting Life”:  “When a justified believer is baptized into the “body of Christ” and so becomes a member of the Theocratic organization, he comes under Christ Jesus the Head and so comes under certain responsibilities and cannot act independently of the one whom God as made Head of the organization to direct it.  HE MUST SUBMIT HIMSELF TO ORGANIZATION INSTRUCTIONS…”  p. 126
      I am appalled at these words I have come across.  They admit to the early beginnings of the “trampling” of the Temple of God – the anointed priesthood and Body of Christ. Matt 24:15;Dan 9:27;11:31; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1-3   Watchtower’s “theocratic organization” empowers a false priesthood to demand obedience to itself, as a “god”.  It is the counterfeit to the Body of Christ – the Body of Satan. 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
       Pearl Doxsey – “The GB has laid a new foundation for themselves...
      They have made themselves the cornerstone ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ), being benefactor to a NON-anointed Organization of counterfeit priests ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. )...
      creating a foreign temple to a "foreign god" ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ).
      They have erected a counterfeit Mt. Zion ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ), ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. )
      and a decoy "Kingdom" while Satan yet rules.”
      (From “Discerning the Body-A God of Order”)  4womaninthewilderness
      Please, I ask you to consider, JWs; that you, and the authentic, anointed Body of Christ, have picked up the wrong torture stake.  Not until it is realized what “mark” you bear, does the real torture stake then present itself.  Your “opposer and cohorts” will come into focus, if you choose to enter the authentic race leading to life. Jer 17:1;  Rev 13:1,3,4,10-17; Exod 20:1-7; Luke 4:8 
      The race JWs presently run, their comparative “torture stake” in a “spiritual paradise”, is soon to come to an abrupt, and tumultuous end.   1 Thess 5:3; Rev 6:12-17; 8:8; Zech 4:7; Job 9:5,6; 14:18-22
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      (Mark of Slavery 4womaninthewilderness)
      I wrote down these thoughts just this morning when reading James chapter 1:  
      When we wake up to Wt.’s deceptions, mulling over in our minds how to deal with them; we have two choices; to either step onto the course leading to life by slaving only for God, or settle with our conscience and continue running Wt’s categorized routes, explicitly showing faith in the organization as salvation.   Deut 6:6,8; 11:18; Exod 13:9  When this choice is apparent, it is then that the Beast/org.’s threatening stance looming over us, is perceived.  Can we bear being called a “loser” by the Beast and everyone we love if we draw out of the race? Matt 5:11; Rev 11:7;13:15  Who really is it, that loses out on eternal life?  
      Tonight, I find this comment regarding a JW “sighing and crying over the detestable things” in the organization (Ezek 9:3,4):
      “Whoever the bozo is that wants to quit...go ahead and do it loser. You are "already gone"
      “A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.  And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST (organization) AND ITS IMAGE, (spirit-directed “Jehovah’s organization) OR FOR ANYONE WHO RECEIVES THE MARK OF ITS NAME.” 
      This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who KEEP HIS COMMANDS AND REMAIN FAITHFUL TO JESUS.”  Rev 14:9-12
      “Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.”  James 1:12
      “You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.  For, ‘In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.’
      38 And, ‘But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.’  39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.” Heb 10:36-39
       
       
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      In the Gospels we find John the Baptist baptizing people in the Jordan River. But where did the concept of Baptism originate? Was this a command from God that we are not told about? Did John develop the concept of Baptism? Was baptism being done before the New Testament? Why was John baptizing people in the Jordan River? Because the Bible is silent on these issues, Churches have created their own doctrines concerning baptism.
    • By Queen Esther
      3 very  young brothers baptized ?   Their smiles say it all
      Or  perhaps  they're  happy  about  the  new  booklets, before?
      *ORGANIZED  TO  DO  JEHOVAH'S  WILL*
      Whatever  for  the  next  time...  Congratulations!  and Jehovah's  blessing
    • By The Librarian
      Russian Orthodox ice water baptisms
       
       
      And they call JW’s “extremists”???
      Via
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      Our brother is enjoying the moment with his parents after his baptism in Maui. 
       
       

    • Guest Nicole
    • By Outta Here
      This subject has arisen under another thread:
      As this issue takes the previous discussion off topic, a new question is asked here,
       
      see also:
       
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      Our dear sister  lshe is happy to see her  mom and dad getting  baptized at the  Regional Convention, this makes her faith grow. 

    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
    • By Bible Speaks
      The set of Likasi is regional French-speaking, Democratic Republic of the Congo in Katanga province.. We welcomed 41 new baptized to an audience of about 2,000 people.   Es el conjunto de Likasi expresión francesa regional, República Democrática del Congo, en la provincia de Katanga. Dimos la bienvenida a 41 nuevos bautizados a una audiencia de cerca de 2.000 personas. Merci beaucoup M!
    • By Bible Speaks
      The set of Likasi is regional French-speaking, Democratic Republic of the Congo in Katanga province..
      We welcomed 41 new baptized to an audience of about 2,000 people.
      Es el conjunto de Likasi expresión francesa regional, República Democrática del Congo, en la provincia
      de Katanga. Dimos la bienvenida a 41 nuevos bautizados a una audiencia de cerca de 2.000 personas.
      Merci beaucoup M!
    • By Bible Speaks
      @yngbld6 shares with us: “My son Aaron, @the.8ran.15, giving his Mom and me a big hug after his baptism at the Regional Convention in Huntsville, Alabama, USA.”
    • By Jack Ryan
      Seven and nine year olds making a life long decision which could mean their families may kick them out of the house in their late teens and shun them.
       
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      Baptize Witnesses Today -- Men of Jehovah's Witnesses leaving beach to wade into water about 300 feet out for baptism by immersion. Scene was Orchard beach in Bronx. June 21, 1958. (Photo by William N. Jacobellis/New York Post Archives / (c) NYP Holdings, Inc. via Getty Images)

    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      Minister of the Jehovah's Witnesses aid in the baptism of some of the 524 converts to the faith in a pool set up at Belmont Park Race Track. The baptism is a high-light of the four-day Witnesses Divine Sovereignty assembly, which ends tomorrow. August 08, 1975. (Photo by Nury Hernandez/New York Post Archives / (c) NYP Holdings, Inc. via Getty Images)
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