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Jack Ryan

Sam Herd Compares Shunning your own Children to Casting out Demons.

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6 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Think about the backgrounds of the GB .... they are all old men who if they were not doing what thay do now ... what else COULD they do to survive in the "real" world

Come on, use your imagination, they weren't always old. They could have done anything, but they chose to do full time pioneering, and not always under the best circumstances. 

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2 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

You assume much about how choices and the job market really works, grasshopper!

I guess you  are assuming they had no other choice but to do full time service when they were young.

And don't call me grasshopper or I will set my spider on you! ?

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51 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

Just wondering if this is the right slant here. It would seem your suggestion is that there is a majority, not unanimous. view in the congregation that this man was deserving of exclusion.

Paul's letters to the Corinthians provide many real-congregation examples of ideas that did not have full agreement behind them. The factions for Cephas, Paul, Apollos, superfine apostles, and concern for who baptized whom, for example. The disorder amongst congregants regarding taking turns when speaking, teaching, interpreting etc. The talk of Paul's advice sometimes being rejected. Paul's words about sects coming in so that the approved will be more easily made known. etc.

Even here in the context, Paul had just compared ALL [in the congregation] in a way that showed a sensitivity to the potential for exaggeration. As Holman translates the previous verse:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
If anyone has caused pain, he has caused pain not so much to me but to some degree  — not to exaggerate  — to all of you.

And in the next verse, the wording is just as careful with a word telling us that it was "many, but not all"--more specfically, a majority.

The possibility for your suggestion is there, but it's not the most straightforward or most likely reading. It requires the creation of an ambiguity which is not necessary as there are clearer ways of stating what you suggest. These kinds of ambiguities are always possible --and I don't think anything in the original Greek would forbid that understanding-- but when we rely on the least likely meaning too often, it smacks of "special pleading."

There are some online commentaries available for this verse, and I've never seen one that that attaches the meaning you suggest. Although I don't doubt that one might exist. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_corinthians/2-6.htm

Another way to look at it is that even if this particular verse means "all the rest of the congregation who were not involved in the immorality," or something like that, the basic point about individual shunning (as opposed to full congregational shunning) is still very likely even without the support of this verse. The quotes from Matthew 18 (and in some cases, even 2 Thess 3) can show that even just one individual may be involved in the shunning of one other individual. No reason to try to get others to join as it could be a matter between the two of them.

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8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

not the most straightforward or most likely reading

Nevertheless, possible. I've never been one for what seems the straight(forward) path always, as it can often be the opposite, with an undesirable outcome. However I will acept that there could  be some in Corinth who did not share Paul's censure of that man's wrongdoing  in view of the  earlier tolerance.  

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@Jack Ryan Unfortunately Expelling and Shunning Commands do exist and it is based on what has been entrusted to the church by means of the Christ, of which is later practices by those who had authority over the church, examples being Apostle Paul. Such goes by other names being Herem Censure and or the Takfir, excommunication, etc. Only ONE form out of the Three practices of Expel/Shun command is correct, and only a FEW Christians are aware of this and practice such while others use the TWO other incorrect forms.

This is why you have people today calling Paul a lair, not knowing the origin of such practices of which the early church taught, and we have those ignorant of this small bit of information, as if Armstrong and or anyone who knows this information well makes it any clearer.

 

Even outside of religion, such is in practice.

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3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

@Jack Ryan Unfortunately Expelling and Shunning Commands do exist and it is based on what has been entrusted to the church by means of the Christ, of which is later practices by those who had authority over the church, examples being Apostle Paul. Such goes by other names being Herem Censure and or the Takfir, excommunication, etc. Only ONE form out of the Three practices of Expel/Shun command is correct, and only a FEW Christians are aware of this and practice such while others use the TWO other incorrect forms.

This is why you have people today calling Paul a lair, not knowing the origin of such practices of which the early church taught, and we have those ignorant of this small bit of information, as if Armstrong and or anyone who knows this information well makes it any clearer.

 

Even outside of religion, such is in practice.

No disrespect but i do wish you would keep the topic on the Jehovah's Witnesses only when the topic is such. 

There is no point telling what other 'religions' do, or what the outside world does. Surely you would know that the JW's are supposed to be 'no part of this word' and should not be influenced by anyone other than God and Jesus Christ, and the Bible.  

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5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

No disrespect but i do wish you would keep the topic on the Jehovah's Witnesses only when the topic is such. 

There is no point telling what other 'religions' do, or what the outside world does. Surely you would know that the JW's are supposed to be 'no part of this word' and should not be influenced by anyone other than God and Jesus Christ, and the Bible.  

I have been keeping on topic, anything in regards to excommunication is of expelling/shunning command, to which I ask you of what it is I am off topic about.

When one studies religion it is easy to point out their Christology, their beliefs, practices and so forth, mainly when it comes to the Abrahamic Religions and so forth, understanding the mindset and or views of others, on the other side of the spectrum, actually practices as that are not Christian  like.

I know who they are, even challenged one and understand where they are coming from, granted I have been studying religions, as I had informed to you before.

When one is no part of the world, they do not adhere to traditions of men and or bad made holidays spoken of to be of Christ when it is not. You do not align yourself with any side expect God's, you are to respect authority but never allow authority to overrule God's Rule, and if civil disobedience has to be done, it has to be in the Christian way, not the other ways it is done by false ones.

Above all else, God is above all and everyone, we take his command seriously, as well as the command of his son, Jesus, to which he had entrusted his command to those who take up the church, for it is all connected.

That being said, when Jesus commanded and or given ability to bind and loosen, you should know what that entails regarding the church. Therefore, it should not be unknown to anyone what expelling aka excommunication and shun command means, and which out of the 3 forms is correct, whereas in reality only 1 form is correct and practiced by FEW Christians. 

When Jesus gives command of something, and or that of his Father, we do not follow it half way or accept half, we take it up in full and be committed to it, as done by those before us and those to come after us.

 

And yes, the Bible, Matthew 16 is a good chapter to read.

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19 hours ago, Anna said:

I know who you were referring to. And I was saying there are easier ways to achieve the same. I mean would you really want to live your life knowing you are responsible for 8 million people? I certainly wouldn't. Not even for a Rolex watch.

Well on religious statistics side of things, I think you lot are around the 8.45 million mark, possibly 8.5 million.

For me I prefer solar powered watches over any watch. At least no one would be trying to take it from you like a fresh pair of new Jordans.

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      He called me up, and told me the story, and I told him I was the Great Turtleman, and every November, before I hibernated, I rose from the swamp and gave toys to all the good little boys and girls.  I was just pulling his leg, but he was dead serious.
      Later, he was in England, while his wife was trying without success to get him to take his medications, and fell over a balcony at Heathrow Airport and got killed.
      DO  WE STILL  DISFELLOWSHIP  THE  MENTALLY  ILL ?
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      from 2016 the year that they started the return to Jehovah brochure.
    • By Jack Ryan
      a heartbreaking video has emerged online showing how far reaching and deeply ingrained this shunning policy is; a video showing JehovahÂ’s Witnesses clapping in applause as a little girl announces she is shunning her own sister.
      Little Melody, and the sister she doesnÂ’t have.
      The incident appears to take place at one of this years Watchtower conventions. The video was posted on youtube by the girls parents, apprently eager to share with the world how they had trained one of their children to pretend her sister didnÂ’t exist purely on the basis of religious dogma.
      The video was comment-protected once viewers began expressing concern and displeasure at what they saw, but at the time of writing the video itself is still live and can be viewed below on the family’s youtube page. (EDIT 11/09/2017 – The video has been removed, but we have linked to an alternate site which has a copy)

      t shows a little girl called Melody. She is ten years old, and was apparently baptised when she was 9. This means that Melody is now committed to the religion for life, and will be shunned if she ever leaves, or “unrepentantly” breaks any of its vast array of detailed rules.
      During the interview, Melody explains that she has a sister who was “disfellowshipped,” which is the Witness term for one who is excommunicated; someone who was thrown out of the faith rather than leaving of their own accord. We are not told the reason for the disfellowshipping, but one can be subjected to it for a wide range of reasons such as pre-marital sex, celebrating Christmas or birthdays, voting, taking a blood transfusion, joining the military, or simply questioning any of the doctrines of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
      Melody states that her sister was trying to contact her, and asking her to stay in contact despite Watchtower decreeing that she be shunned. Remember, MelodyÂ’s sister has probably lost all her family and friends at this point; everyone she ever knew and loved.
      Melody admits that she misses and loves her sister, but states that she was afraid that if she didnÂ’t cut her sister off completely, she might be tempted to keep some form of relationship going. Thus, she has decided to shun her completely, as Watchtower demands. She claims that this was to protect her relationship with Jehovah.
      The audience of JehovahÂ’s Witnesses watching this announcement applaud.
      Source
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    • Absolutely agree. But what I see as it is possible to read in WT Society text about Higher education is this: They tend to separate young minds from "secular knowledge" because of some fears. Perhaps one of fear is not main reason, to be learned about non-Bible ideas. But as main reason i see how this "secular ideas" can cause that young JW members begin to question WT and Bible.  Please have in mind what you already said, JHVH not decided to separate Congregation, but He doing just opposite. He let all sort of influence to be spread on  people, all people, not just JW's. If JHVH not made separation in literal way, than WT try to do this separation in limited level on limited class of people for limited time in their life - looks funny and not productive as they expect.  This was completely necessary to be said ... using this sort of illustration with mafia as subject :))))) ........... but you "provoked" me a little :)))) and i will add. We all working for devil the boss, because he is ruler, god of this world, global company/corporation. Just another, different way of rationalization.   :))))))
    • I agree that God is organized, which is clear in creation.  He has also organized his anointed Body of “144,000” perfectly, by distributing gifts in various measure. All are to benefit from each other.  (1 Cor chapter 12)  And he himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as pastors and teachers 12 for the equipping of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all reach the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to a measure of the maturity of the fullness of Christ.  Eph 4:11-13 In Matt 13:36-43 it says, “The Son of Man will send out his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all the causes of sin and those who do lawless deeds” Matt 13:41 Jesus stated that his kingdom is “no part of this world”. John 18:36  His kingdom is comprised of the anointed – those part of his Body.  He is the “Lord of lords and King of kings”.  Rev 17:14 (Matt 20:21)    And they were singing a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the scroll     and to open its seals, because you were slaughtered,     and bought people for God by your blood     from every tribe and language and people and nation, 10 and made them a kingdom and priests to our God,     and they will reign on the earth.” Rev 5:9,10 (1 Pet 2:5,9) Matt 13:37,38 – “So he answered and said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world. And the good seed—these are the sons of the kingdom, but the darnel are the sons of the evil one.” If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:29 We know that not all of God’s anointed become faithful members of the Bride.  They can fall from their heavenly position. 2 Pet 3:17; Rev 8:10,11  This harvest firstly concerns those belonging to Christ, who are part of his kingdom and are found either as good seed or weeds.  I hope you can see that Matt 13:36-43 has nothing to do with the all the kingdoms on the earth and the people in them.  (Luke 4:5-7)  In Matt 13:38; It does say, “the field is the world” – but world can mean, “an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution” which describes the anointed arrangement of "kings" under their Head Jesus Christ.  John 4:23,24 -   Jesus said right before these scriptures:   “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.” John 4:21 Christ’s Body replaced the temple in Jerusalem.  There is no more literal, physical place of worship, since the Temple is now built with “living stones”.  1 Pet 2:5,9   They are given “spirit” and “truth”.  1 John 2:20,27; John 16:13  If they fail in their devotion to God and Christ, they lose what has been given them.  Luke 8:18; 1 Cor 3:18  They will not be sealed into the tribes of “Israel”.    Luke 13:24; Rev 3:11 Again in Rev 18:4, “my people”, refer to God’s holy people – His “special possession”.  They and their companions with them are to leave the “organization” where the “darnel” are teaching His people, lies. Rev 18:4-8 (1 Pet 2:5,9,10)      
    • I don't know if anyone provided an update to this story, but the "brother" finally pled guilty, and was sentenced to five years, for three felony counts of child rape with two different victims. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-who-raped-jehovah-s-witness-girls-sentenced-5-years-n1082136 Elihu Rodriguez, 32, of Yakima, Washington, was given five years, the maximum sentence prosecutors had asked for, after Rodriguez pleaded guilty to three felony counts of child rape in the third degree in September. He was also ordered to register as a sex offender. Both of his victims attended the sentencing, which took place Friday at the King County Maleng Regional Justice Center in Kent, Washington. I believe this was the case I was told something about in 2018, which is why I mentioned then that I couldn't say much because it was an upcoming court case. If it's the same one, then someone (parent?) convinced her not to report it because it was just a matter that this 25-year-old was in love with her, and so they told her it was actually multiple acts of fornication, not child abuse or child rape. She agreed not to report on the basis that she would be considered guilty of fornication, too. So the family moved to another congregation, and within months, she got to a point where she decided she needed to report it to the elders. (I don't think it was because she learned about another girl being raped/abused by the man, even though this would make sense.) When she did report it to her new congregation's elders in 2013, they actually called the legal department just as they were supposed to, but evidently someone thought it was going to be possible to treat this as "consensual" and the elders tried to get her to say it was consensual. She refused to agree with the elders that it was consensual, and took it to the authorities. When I heard about this case (or perhaps another one just like it) I was only told the general area of the US, and some circumstances, but no names. I was only told that this was disturbing that someone would try to turn a child molestation case of a "16 year old girl" into a consensual case in spite of the young age. (I was not told that she was actually 14/15.) Years earlier, J R Brown, as a spokesmen for the Society, had tried to minimize a lot of these cases by saying that a lot of them are like cases of an 18 year old boy with a 16 year old girl, which sounded a bit like the old "boys will be boys" excuse. 
    • The point was that Jehovah is organized, the evidence is all around us. This leads us to believe that His visible favored people would be organized in doing His will. Moving forward we can consider WHO HE is about to sanction based on Matthew 13:36-43, John 4:23,24,Revelation 18:4 and a few more.......
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