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At what moment "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth"?

Srecko Sostar

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JOHN BUTLER Newbie

JOHN BUTLER

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12 hours ago, Thinking said:

Yes it is John ...just as it was wrong of Arron to build the golden calf in the wilderness...some witnesses seem to live in fairy land and think we as a people are so different to the Israelites of the wilderness when in fact we are the same. 

But don't let it escape your notice .... just as Moses did finally come down of that mountain and sort that wayward people out...so too will jesus come back and sort us lot out,,, 

so you leave because of wrong doing of a few in power ... what is escaping your notice is when those in the wilderness were directed to go forth and take the land ...only Joshua and Kaleb stood firm .. the rest had no faith in their God ... who were they ....they were the cheiftans of the tribes..men in authority ...they were not just any little Israelite man from the camp..they were probably men that were hand picked by Moses ...yet their error brought calamity down on their own people ....these things are relayed to us for an example ..to teach us ....can we really expect it to be so different today.

instead of causing division and doubt why not consider Joshua's and Kalebs insight and understanding... why not imitate their faith and encourage those in this confusing time that Jesus will return just as Moses did and sort this mess out and bring about justice and peace to the hurt sheep ...

You talk of the Nation of Israel. They were God's chosen people. Not by their choice as individuals though. So it cannot be compared to the JW Org. The JW Org is made up of individuals that have made a choice to be in that Org. The Org is supposed to be like a New nation. A safe place, a hiding place from the storm of the world. It should be 'looked after', watched over and guided by men of pure hearts. But it isn't. It's an organisation of dictatorship with the threat of death if a person disobeys. Spiritual death at first, then physical death at Armageddon, ( if you believe what he GB says ). 

You said 'so you leave because of wrong doing of a few in power'. Let me remind you of Hitler. He was in power, but why ? Why did he have such power ?  Because people feared him and so they did as they were told. They were his puppets. Hitler could not have done as much on his own. It was because he had so much of Germany under his control and they 'did just so', obeyed his every command without thought or feeling for others. It is the same in the JW org. The Elders are in fear of the GB. The GB are the hitler of the Org. So the Elders are the puppets of the GB, and in turn the congregants are in fear of the Elders, so the congregants are the puppets of the Elders. That is why the JW Org is not pure and clean. If you pollute a river from its source, that pollution will run down through the whole river, polluting all in its path. So it is with the JW Org, the pollution starts with the GB and it runs down through. 

You are saying to me then, why not be part of this pollution ? Why not invite other people into this polluted Organisation ? 

I think you will now understand why I left it all. Well you will understand if you want to, but if you want to continue to be blind then so be it.  

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Anna

I understand your points and you have expressed them very well. I will address each point you raised separately, but first I just want to mention a few general things which have perhaps shaped the per

Thinking

Hey Brother Billie..your way out on this....it is undeniable if you watched the ARC...we as a people were found to have faulty policies...that’s a fact..we were forced to ammend them. Kids suffer

JW Insider

I think this point showed excellent insight. I wondered if this is what you meant from the start. The very context shows that the type of leadership in this case is more like the local elders rather t

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JOHN BUTLER Newbie

JOHN BUTLER

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42 minutes ago, Thinking said:

I’m not blind John..I have just become master over my resentment anger and hurt....otherwise I would be like you....persecuting my brothers and sisters...

So exposing people for Child Abuse now becomes 'persecuting my own brothers and sisters' does it ?

Exposing the GB for their heartless rules, their false information and misguidance becomes 'persecuting my own brothers and sisters' does it ? 

Well Jesus was accused of much that wasn't true about him. So accuse me of what you will. God himself will sort out whichever Organisation HE wishes to use, be it the JW Org or not. But if it is the JW org then it will need a lot of cleaning out first. Meanwhile you can carry on being a puppet if you wish, but not a puppet for God, only a puppet for the GB. 

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JOHN BUTLER

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50 minutes ago, Equivocation said:

Old and New, New and Old. The GB has never claimed to be inspired and those who say otherwise only proofs true to the very lies they drown themselves in. The hypocrisy and the misleading, but people who know what is true and what is false will say something. 

Ah no, but the GB expect to be believed and obeyed. Even if they do put sly cop outs in their writings. 

GB : Um we might be wrong but we think this and that, but you must follow us and our Org or you will die at Armageddon. 

The threat of spiritual death and physical death of not being in the 'Org' and not following the teachings of the GB. Is that really how God wants people to show love to one another.  

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Equivocation

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11 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Ah no, but the GB expect to be believed and obeyed. Even if they do put sly cop outs in their writings. 

GB : Um we might be wrong but we think this and that, but you must follow us and our Org or you will die at Armageddon. 

The threat of spiritual death and physical death of not being in the 'Org' and not following the teachings of the GB. Is that really how God wants people to show love to one another.  

They give us the tools and encourage us to learn from the Bible. And from what is said in the publication comes from the Bible by means of teaching and principle.

We follow the teachings because the teachings is true by means of the Scriptures and not follow the scriptures puts you in opposition with God, the righteous ones the meek ones who take up the truth from the Bible will have salvation, we preach what is true to the nations so they can learn who the True God is.

Spiritual Death is indeed a real thing, it can be avoided by follow the Scriptures for death in the spirit means a total alienation from not only the teachings of the Bible, but of Jehovah God. And by showing love we do teach the Word and who God is so whomever we speak the truth to will understand who God is and what he will do for mankind. If you have faith in God you'd be well aware of what he will do, little faith to crumble in the spirit only shows one has little faith in God or is discouraged of the promise. 

I believe God will make things right and people should know who God is, his Kingdom and his Son, Jesus Christ.

I stand by my word - the GB never claimed inspiration at all and like them we follow the true God and his Word.

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Srecko Sostar

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48 minutes ago, Equivocation said:

Old and New, New and Old. The GB has never claimed to be inspired and those who say otherwise only proofs true to the very lies they drown themselves in. The hypocrisy and the misleading, but people who know what is true and what is false will say something. 

My point is that we should have a little talk about the term "inspired".
First we should come up with an answer on what type of "inspiration" the GB speaks. As for the religious people who govern the believers, then we can safely assert that GB actually claims that they are not inspired by the divine spirit. 

In what sense of inspiration? In the sense of what is often used for written Bible text and its source, these are verses like - 2 Peter 1:19-21 and 2 Timothy 3:14-16. GB denied such divine inspiration for written and verbal text that coming from GB members mouth, or in extension, all what is produced as "spiritual food" by means, with help, through WT Company or JW Organization as god's chosen organized people who doing His will.

Now let us see something about word "inspire" (and all forms that come from this one).

few from dictionary:

 to make someone feel that they want to do something and can do it

 to make someone have a particular strong feeling or reaction

 to give someone an idea for a book, film, product, etc

to fill someone with confidence and desire to do something

If something or someone inspires something else, it causes or leads to it

 As we can see to be inspired can came from various sources. And all sources are normal (if they are normal :))))). If you as JW member listen to Conventional program and hear some bro or sis how they are happy in missionary service, how they meet many interesting people, saw beautiful scenery of nature and  many more and after you heard that you want to be missionary .... Who INSPIRED Who? Nothing is wrong to be INSPIRED. 

If you read some book, watching TV, movie and something move you aka inspired you to say something, to do something ... it means you are INSPIRED. If God from heaven tell you to say, to do something, it means you are INSPIRED.

When GB of JW say how they are not INSPIRED what that means? Not inspired by spirit of God, not inspired by other people spirit , not inspired by own spirit??

How ever they claim, state, quote how they are not inspired, they are in fact want to say how GB is not RESPONSIBLE for nothing have been said and written. That is main reason for defending themselves with phrase "we are not inspired". 

Inspiration is divine gift. And was given to all people. Or better to say some will found that and some will used that.  :))) Not only for religious purposes!!!!!!!!!!!

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1 hour ago, Equivocation said:

They give us the tools and encourage us to learn from the Bible. And from what is said in the publication comes from the Bible by means of teaching and principle.

We follow the teachings because the teachings is true by means of the Scriptures and not follow the scriptures puts you in opposition with God, the righteous ones the meek ones who take up the truth from the Bible will have salvation, we preach what is true to the nations so they can learn who the True God is.

Spiritual Death is indeed a real thing, it can be avoided by follow the Scriptures for death in the spirit means a total alienation from not only the teachings of the Bible, but of Jehovah God. And by showing love we do teach the Word and who God is so whomever we speak the truth to will understand who God is and what he will do for mankind. If you have faith in God you'd be well aware of what he will do, little faith to crumble in the spirit only shows one has little faith in God or is discouraged of the promise. 

I believe God will make things right and people should know who God is, his Kingdom and his Son, Jesus Christ.

I stand by my word - the GB never claimed inspiration at all and like them we follow the true God and his Word.

You are missing the point. What you follow is the GB's interpretation of the scriptures. And the GB say they are not inspired of God's Holy Spirit. So what you follow is the GB that guess about things after they themselves read the scriptures. And as I've said, the GB even make note that they might not be right. 

So for instance, you go on the ministry with a magazine or book to offer to people, but the information in those publications is only guess work by the GB. So it may not be true. You could in fact be offering lies. 

If you teach direct from the Bible that is much better, but you have to have an accurate knowledge of God's word. 

You follow your GB through your elders. You do Not follow God through Jesus christ. 

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Thinking Grand Master

Thinking

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9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So exposing people for Child Abuse now becomes 'persecuting my own brothers and sisters' does it ?

Exposing the GB for their heartless rules, their false information and misguidance becomes 'persecuting my own brothers and sisters' does it ? 

Well Jesus was accused of much that wasn't true about him. So accuse me of what you will. God himself will sort out whichever Organisation HE wishes to use, be it the JW Org or not. But if it is the JW org then it will need a lot of cleaning out first. Meanwhile you can carry on being a puppet if you wish, but not a puppet for God, only a puppet for the GB. 

Aaaah now you have become a personal judge of me....are you yourself now not becoming self righteous and pious in your words and manner...time to step down of your self made throne John.

Jehovah does not need you to point out or make known the errors of his people....do you honestly think he needs any human to do that....do you honestly think he did not foresee and know full well what would happen amongst his own people....why do you think he warned us in Peter that he would start judgement with his own household...

Do you think Jehovah cannot clean his own house....

A lot of us don’t follow the GB...we follow,the scriptures and test it out as the beroeans did....you assume we are all puppets...you give no respect to many brothers and sisters who have stronger faith than yourself.....John you have a big mouth.....I can say that because once I did to....Peter had a big mouth too....but he learnt humility...and eventually I learnt it to....and not from any GB...but from reading the scriptures and allowing them to discipline me and correct me....

john did Jehovah clean out the Jewish System before he placed the messiah amongst them....your reasoning is flawed....

you are persecuting your brothers and sisters because you are not balanced in your views or thinking....you are making their scriptural command of teaching people the basic truths harder..and you are sowing seeds of doubt without any balanced knowledge as to why things are the way they are....it’s a extremely serious thing you are doing.

i know of elders who have someone’s blood on their hands because of the way they treated that person....but you also could find yourself in such a situation as well.....

i will end this conversation now because it would appear you are hell bent on exposing only the errors and not even acknowledging the wonderful basic truths Jehovah’s witnesses have been responsible for...

you have too much bitterness John...and it has made you unbalanced in your judgement and comprehension...and actually ..your bitterness is probably justified...but it is running you....controlling you....and thus you are it’s slave and not the free man you think you are.

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Thinking said:

Aaaah now you have become a personal judge of me....are you yourself now not becoming self righteous and pious in your words and manner...time to step down of your self made throne John.

Jehovah does not need you to point out or make known the errors of his people....do you honestly think he needs any human to do that....do you honestly think he did not foresee and know full well what would happen amongst his own people....why do you think he warned us in Peter that he would start judgement with his own household...

Do you think Jehovah cannot clean his own house....

A lot of us don’t follow the GB...we follow,the scriptures and test it out as the beroeans did....you assume we are all puppets...you give no respect to many brothers and sisters who have stronger faith than yourself.....John you have a big mouth.....I can say that because once I did to....Peter had a big mouth too....but he learnt humility...and eventually I learnt it to....and not from any GB...but from reading the scriptures and allowing them to discipline me and correct me....

john did Jehovah clean out the Jewish System before he placed the messiah amongst them....your reasoning is flawed....

you are persecuting your brothers and sisters because you are not balanced in your views or thinking....you are making their scriptural command of teaching people the basic truths harder..and you are sowing seeds of doubt without any balanced knowledge as to why things are the way they are....it’s a extremely serious thing you are doing.

i know of elders who have someone’s blood on their hands because of the way they treated that person....but you also could find yourself in such a situation as well.....

i will end this conversation now because it would appear you are hell bent on exposing only the errors and not even acknowledging the wonderful basic truths Jehovah’s witnesses have been responsible for...

you have too much bitterness John...and it has made you unbalanced in your judgement and comprehension...and actually ..your bitterness is probably justified...but it is running you....controlling you....and thus you are it’s slave and not the free man you think you are.

 

 

 

Maybe it's not that Jehovah needs me or others to make complaint, BUT maybe Jehovah wants me and others to make complaint. Now that could be a sifting of those that want a clean Org to those that are prepared to remain in a disgusting Org. Jehovah often has heard the voices of His people and then acted on their behalf. 

So in your opinion what does Jehovah think of the way the GB and Elders deal with the important problems within the JW Org ? Because in my opinion Jehovah is withholding His Holy Spirit from the GB and the Org at this time.  

However i do like that bit where you say "i will end this conversation now because it would appear you are hell bent on exposing only the errors  .... " At least you recognise that there are errors, thank you. 

And you would say that Jesus 'had a big mouth' too then ? The way he spoke to the Pharisees many times. Truth hurts, so you can say i have a big mouth and I will understand your pain. 

Is it me that is making the preaching work harder, or the Pedophile elders and others that bring Jehovah's name into disrepute ? Come on, open your eyes, it's earthwide news now. From that viewpoint it doesn't need me to add to it, people out there already know. I don't get involved in the protests but i know there are protests in many countries about the problems within the JW Org. Has Jehovah planned all this ? Is it serving a purpose ? Is it a testing ? But why would anyone want to be part of such an Org that has known about these things for between 20 and 50 years, and not done anything about it apart from keep records ?  

"you have too much bitterness John" Indeed. Have you been a victim of Child Abuse ? If not then you have no idea. 

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