The Name of God - Documentary by Fritz Poppenberg

[Anna]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Some have tied this idea of each nation getting a guardian angel to the "watchers" of the books of non-canonical Enoch and canonical portions of Daniel. This is why Michael is the guardian archangel of Israel, and other nations have their own guardian angels. This relates to a question that @Anna asked recently on this forum . https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/47150-why-do-we-understand-the-prince-of-persia-in-daniel-1013-to-be-a-wicked-angeldemon/?tab=comments#comment-69704

Thanks for drawing my attention to that question as I forgot all about it and never even noticed an answer there from @Gone Fishing

[TrueTomHarley]

There! It was a like. A real genuine grade A honest-to-goodness like. Don't ever say it wasn't.

[Anna]

4 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

There! It was a like. A real genuine grade A honest-to-goodness like. Don't ever say it wasn't.

See, there you go again, always weaseling your way out! Because that like doesn't count.And have you watched the video yet?

[TrueTomHarley]

13 minutes ago, Anna said:

And have you watched the video yet?

Well, no. But I'll get to it.

 

[Anna]

Ok Ok, you can stop now with these likes @TrueTomHarley They're clogging up my notifications. Yep, us women never seem to be satisfied

[TrueTomHarley]

10 minutes ago, Anna said:

Yep

 

[Anna]

17 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

31 minutes ago, Anna said:

And have you watched the video yet?

Well, no. But I'll get to it.

That's good. I'm interested in how you understand it, since we already have several people's take on it. Of course you need to be fair and unbiased, and there is no need to be diplomatic and defensive, since this is not from the society. Not officially anyway.

[SuziQ1513]

On 10/26/2017 at 11:31 AM, Anna said:

, Nehemiah Gordon is a Karaite Rabbi (never heard of the Karaite Jews, very interesting)

Hi Anna!   Just a friendly correction to the above statement.  Nehemiah Gordon is indeed a Karaite Jew (Kara means scripture) but not a Rabbi.  His father is an orthodox Rabbi but Karaites do not recognize the Rabbinical system.  They would be considered fundamentalist using scripture only and they do use God's name as required by scripture.  I have enjoyed listening to his point of view and have learned quite a lot from him and have read his book:  The Hebrew Yeshua vs the Greek Jesus.  He has a likable personality and remains quite neutral in discussions cautious of not promoting one religion over another.  He is well educated in the Hebrew language (both ancient and modern) but remains a humble man.   He was associated with an American pastor named Keith Johnson but I think they have gone their separate ways now (which is good).  Wishing you blessings - SuziQ1513

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

I mentioned this already, so, what problem do you see with the Watchtowers rendition of known facts?

I don't see any problem with the Watchtower's rendition of known facts. The Watchtower has never addressed the arguments that some scholars bring up with respect to Elohim as it has been related to a Divine Council. I thought you were saying you had addressed this with scholars, so I was interested. What you responded to above is not the same issue. I suspect we agree on all most issues related to God's name -- assuming you agree with the Watchtower's general view on the topic.

Probably the only area where we might differ is how we defend the inconsistent method of the NWT using Jehovah for kyrios in the Greek when it is not a quote or direct allusion to the Hebrew Scriptures.

[JW Insider]

10 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

I find the Watchtowers research in the matter of “El/Elohim” to be satisfactory. There’s NO reason to go beyond the research conducted by the Watchtower, that many “modern” scholars have come to the same conclusion.

The Watchtower never mentions the Canaanite or Ugaritic texts with respect to ELOHIM, or the Divine Council of EL, although it does refer to these texts with respect to EL (the Bull; or "Father Bull"). Our references never mention that YAHWEH was considered to be one of the sons of EL, just as BAAL was another son of EL. A couple of intriguing points are made in the Insight book, however:

*** it-1 pp. 976-977 Gods and Goddesses ***

• Canaanite Deities. Extrabiblical sources indicate that the god El was considered to be the creator and sovereign. Although El seems to have been somewhat remote from earthly affairs, he is repeatedly shown as being approached by the other deities with requests. . . . In the Ras Shamra texts El is referred to as “father bull” and is represented as having gray hair and a gray beard. His consort was Asherah, who is referred to as the progenitress of the gods, whereas El is placed in the role of progenitor of the gods. . . . Most prominent of the Canaanite gods, however, was the fertility god Baal, a deity of the sky and of rain and storm. (Jg 2:12, 13) In the Ras Shamra texts, Baal is often called the son of Dagon, though El is also spoken of as his father. Baal’s sister Anath is shown referring to El as her father and he, in turn, calls her his daughter. Hence, Baal probably was regarded as the son of El, though he may also have been viewed as El’s grandson. In the mythological accounts Baal is depicted as assaulting and triumphing over Yamm, the god who presided over the water and who seems to have been El’s favorite or beloved son. But Baal is slain in his conflict with Mot, who was viewed as a son of El and the god of death and aridity. Thus, Canaan, like Babylon, had its god who died a violent death and thereafter was restored to life.—See BAAL No. 4. . . . Hence, at times Asherah and then again Ashtoreth may have been regarded as wives of Baal.—Jg 2:13; 3:7; 10:6; 1Sa 7:4; 12:10; 1Ki 18:19

We spoke of the Mesha stele as being the oldest extant mention of YHWH from about 890 B.C.E. Some of the next oldest extant mentions of the divine name YHWH are from Kuntillet Ajrud about which Wikipedia says the following:

• (Arabic: كونتيلة عجرود‎‎) is a late 9th/early 8th centuries BCE site in the northeast part of the Sinai peninsula.^[1] It is frequently described as a shrine, though this is not certain.^[2]

  The inscriptions are mostly in early Hebrew with some in Phoenician script.^[4] Many are religious in nature, invoking Yahweh, El and Baal, and two include the phrases "Yahweh of Samaria and his Asherah" and "Yahweh of Teman and his Asherah."^[5] There is general agreement that Yahweh is being invoked in connection with Samaria (capital of the kingdom of Israel) and Teman (in Edom); this suggests that Yahweh had a temple in Samaria, and raises a question over the relationship between Yahweh and Kaus, the national god of Edom.^[6] The "Asherah" is most likely a cultic object, although the relationship of this object (a stylised tree perhaps) to Yahweh and to the goddess Asherah, consort of El, is unclear.^[7]

  An image on the piece of pottery (belonging to a pithos vase) found at Kuntillet Ajrud is adjacent to a Hebrew inscription "Berakhti etkhem l’YHVH Shomron ul’Asherato" ("I have blessed you by Yahweh of Samaria and [his] Asherah").

The connection to the false gods of Canaan and surrounding areas are to be expected, based on the Bible's continuous warnings to the Hebrews about the influence of false gods. The shared language of the region probably facilitated such syncretism, too. For example, the Insight book mentions Yamm, the god of the Sea. The Hebrew word for sea was also Yam. The Insight book mentions Mot as the god of death. The Hebrew word for Death is also Mot. The Mesopotamiam Sun-god was Shamash, the Hebrew word for sun was Shemesh.

But there is also a sense that gods could rise to the Most High of the "Council of Gods" (ELOHIM) and effectively replace EL. EL himself supposedly killed his father to reach this position, per the Insight book. Insight implies what some scholars have said: DAGON for a time might have been seen as the new EL making BAAL the son of DAGON rather than just the son of EL. This may also be an indication that as any god was seen to be the most powerful and ascendant, he became the "ONLY GOD" and that GOD becomes the MOST HIGH, therefore the ruler of the COUNCIL. Even in the Bible, the term MOST HIGH, does not just imply "The Most High over all the earth" but over all the other [non-existent, imagined] gods of other nations. (Psalm 77:13) ". . .What god is as great as you, O God?"  Poetically, at least, the Hebrews could still imagine a heavenly scene reminiscent of the common view of a "Divine Council of Gods."

• (Psalm 82:1-8) God [ELOHIM] takes his place in the divine assembly [literally, "Council of EL"]; In the middle of the gods [ELOHIM] he judges:  2 “How long will you continue to judge with injustice And show partiality to the wicked? (Selah)  3 Defend the lowly and the fatherless. Render justice to the helpless and destitute.  4 Rescue the lowly and the poor; Save them out of the hand of the wicked.”  5 They do not know, nor do they understand; They are walking about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are being shaken.  6 “I have said, ‘You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High.  7 But you will die just as men do; And like any other prince you will fall!’”  8 Rise up, O God, and judge the earth, For all the nations belong to you.

It's possible, of course, to make these "gods" simply powerful men who are judges, but then you have the problem of verse 7 which says that these "men" are going to die just as "men" do. And, of course, Jesus invokes verse 6 as a way of showing that he has every right to call himself the "Son of God" because the Father sanctified him and sent into the world from heaven. The Christian view is, of course, clarified here:

• (1 Corinthians 8:4-6) . . ., we know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is no God but one. 5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

So, our position on all of this is very clear, and I'm sure we are in agreement about it. I was only asking if you had found points that are useful in countering the claims of too much similarity. I think Mormons have embraced some of these similarities, but they are obviously foreign to core Hebrew and Christian concepts.

The points you copied above that are found on the site: http://www.garshin.ru/linguistics/historical/author-comparisons/jehovah_eng.htm are very interesting. I see that this source is in agreement with some of the points we have brought up before, but the source also takes some liberties that might not be warranted.

The book you have pictured deals with a very similar theme of syncretism in early Christianity. In both cases these questions are likely dealt with improperly by most authors. The book you reference apparently treats the subject in a way that I find awkward based on a publisher's description (below). I know nothing about this book, except from excerpts I have just looked at today, but wonder what relevant information you might have learned from it. There is nothing relevant or useful on the pages you chose to copy. (I'm assuming you might have read more of it.)

• In Kyrios Christos, Wilhelm Bousset argues that the Hellenistic Church's declaration of "Jesus as Lord" is a transformation of the pre-Christian Judaic community's understanding of Jesus as the Son of Man. This unique distinction between the primitive Palestinian community and Hellenistic Christianity reveals how the earliest Christian beliefs were informed by existing religious influences.

[TrueTomHarley]

On 10/26/2017 at 1:37 PM, Anna said:

You have to watch the video @TrueTomHarley

As stated, such things interest me only to a degree. I will eventually get to it, once a project or two is out of the way.

I could spin this all in 'self-righteous' mode if I wanted to - that I am actually applying Christianity while others merely endlessly debate over it. Sometimes in my heart of hearts I entertain that thought. But a scenario just as likely is that they are smarter than me and are able to do both without breaking a sweat.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

It seems you want to slow walk me into an epiphany, your point being is?

Same as always. As I said: I thought you were saying you had addressed this with scholars, so I was interested.

I was interested in whether you had run across some useful information that either debunks the connections that several scholars have made, or perhaps put them in a more understandable light. You quoted from some sources that, as far as I can see, just take us further down into the same connections I was hoping to avoid, so I have my doubts that any of these sources can help. But I try keep an open mind. Which is why I was interested in your take on this.