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[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

What other WT explanations do you think are affected by whether the anointed that have died are now in heaven or not?

That would need some research. But i am positive it can be found.  :))

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @Anna " But I think that has always been your stumbling block. Your insistence that there must be NO mistakes and NO fault, despite knowing that all humans, including the anointed are imperfect, and that all those inspired and God fearing men in Bible times (Hebrew and Greek scriptures) made mistakes, some quite major ones. "

So Anna, do you think those Bible writers made mistakes in what they actually wrote ?  Is the written word wrong ?  Were the Hebrew scriptures not inspired of God ? Was The Revelation not inspired by God ?  You see, what you seem to be saying is that humans making mistakes is the same as Bible writings being mistakes. Because you use the excuse that humans misusing scripture is because they are human and make mistakes. So maybe then you think that humans writing scripture made mistakes in their writings, because they are human. 

You and others deliberately misquote me by saying that I expect perfection from people. You use this to try to defeat my comments and ideas. It is quite sad to read actually. It shows that you have nothing else to offer. 

An example of my thinking. I know that I am imperfect and that i do things wrong. However if i look at a map (not sat nav) I can drive to London without getting lost.  Is that simple to understand. I, as an imperfect person can follow a map and reach my destination.  The map of course is made by an experienced person who has the knowledge and capability to design it and print it. 

So, the belief is that the scriptures are written, compiled, and printed with the help of God's Holy Spirit. 

Now where is the common sense of God doing all that if He doesn't follow through and INSPIRE the Anointed to interpret the scriptures properly ?

It makes no difference how many 'mistakes' / sins / wrongdoings that those Anointed may do in their personal lives. That is directly between them and God or Christ. 

But surely God would have an honest Organisation that would be able to, with the inspiration of holy spirit, interpret and give the proper food at the right time. OR give NO food at all if it wasn't the right time to give it. 

If God used imperfect men to write the scriptures PROPERLY, then God would also use imperfect men to understand those scripture PROPERLY and to feed His people PROPERLY. 

Why would God deliberately waste time and have His name dishonoured, because God didn't bother to inspire the Anointed to 'do the job properly' ? 

It does not make any sense. I could understand there being NO 'food' / message, but why a false message, poisonous food ?  

You mentioned the January W/t I think which says exactly what I've been saying for a long time. 

Ten men clinging to the skirt of a JEW. But the JEW would have to be seen to be guided by Almighty God.

Do you honestly think the JW Org can be seen as being guided by Almighty God ? With all it's 'mistakes' and all its immorality, and all its injustice in the courtrooms. Even many JWs, including some on here, are not completely in favour of the GB and the way JW Org is being run. 

 

[Guest Tom Henry]

6 hours ago, Kosonen said:

But we should take apostle Paul's letters as God's word because he was an apostle appointed by Jesus directly and apostle Paul was undoubtedly lead by God's spirit while serving God and Christ and working to help early Christians to progress spiritually.

Just a friendly reminder. Paul converted to Christianity in AD36. Paul never meet Jesus. He heard about Jesus works after Christ death. I don't want anyone to confuse this notion. Paul's higher calling came directly from God.

[Witness]

2 hours ago, Tom Henry said:

Just a friendly reminder. Paul converted to Christianity in AD36. Paul never meet Jesus. He heard about Jesus works after Christ death. I don't want anyone to confuse this notion. Paul's higher calling came directly from God.

Well, it was Jesus who spoke to Paul, twice:

As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink" Acts 9:3-9

It was Jesus who chose his apostles, Paul being one of the them.  

One more time that we KNOW of, Jesus spoke to Paul:

"And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me."  2 Cor 12:7-9

 

[Arauna]

14 hours ago, Witness said:

Do be you believe that each anointed is a “living stone” of the Temple of God?    1 Pet 2:5,9

You did not answer any of my previous questions regarding the forecourt if the temple...forecourt of the nations, forecourt of the women. 

The holy and most holy where the high priest and underpriests entered into existed but also the court where the ordinary men and women could also enter. "since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come"

It is hard to reason with someone who continually only repeats  the verses that suits their ideas .......

You quoted Isaiah 2:4 above : in the last days "the temple " ....... there is currently not a real mountain and a real temple any longer. So this obviously refers to a figurative temple in heaven which is " a shadow of the God things to come" based on the temple in Jerusalem.

Jesus only went "into" this heavenly  temple when he passed through the barrier of the  flesh at his  death and resurrection as a spiritual being.  This is what it means to be baptized in death of jesus - to die and be resurrected as a spiritual being - only then will you be a king and a priest.  You cannot be a king and priest while on earth - before going to heaven.

Then you quote other scriptures which refer to illustrations where Paul says that we must be clean and pure - not commit fornication -   because "we are being built into stones of the heavenly temple" -  "So rid yourselves of all badnessa and deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all backbiting"  this is how Peter starts the chapter you quote above. where he talks of his disciples being built into a spiritual temple. But it seems - you put only the  emphasis  on the word "temple" and not on the context around it...... and you keep requoting that you " are the temple" when is says you are being built into a temple.....

Take for example the scripture you quoted above: 1pet2: 5- 10.  It says " you are being built into a holy temple"  it does not say you are "already the temple." ..... so you misquoted this scripture.....

Another scripture you misquote to prove that you should be ruling and teaching now is from Isaiah but you forget  : The law of Zion is coming from the" heavens" - we have come before mount Zion....the heavenly Jerusalem......hebr 12:22..... law is not coming from those who believe they are already  the "temple"  here on earth..... And another point:  Zion was the seat of 'rulership' not the temple.  No wonder you feel you should already be 'ruling'. Do you see yourself as king already?   Because it is only in heaven where there will be kings or priests. Most scriptures describing the kings and priests describe them falling down before jehovah (in his presence in heaven) and praising him.

I call you out because you constantly misquote scriptures.  The bible clearly indicates that one receives a token of holy spirit  in your heart that you are of the anointed - spirit of jehovah. It is a token  "in advance of your inheritance" . It does not mean that you have already received the inheritance. eph1: 13 & 14.

The day of releasing from the flesh is not yet here....ep 4:30. 2 Corinthians 1:21 & 22 clearly indicates that the seal is a token of that which "is to come" - the spirit in our hearts.  

Yes you know that you will go to heaven but the bible clearly says that those who remain faithful to the end will be saved....... not that you are already saved.  The seal of holy spirit is a token of inheritance "in future" ....... and our bodies must remain pure to remain a stone of that future temple.  If you sin against that "token" holy spirit without repentance you forfeit that "promise".

 

 

13 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

GB are so puffed up with themselves, and make so many stupid videos and make up new rules as they go along.

To you they are stupid videos........ so I wonder who is really puffed up ?    

 

[Srecko Sostar]

12 hours ago, Anna said:

Knowledge is progressive as I am sure you will agree.

I also agree with this reality. 

But I also think it is then necessary to separate the idea that WT promotes. Again we need to ask ourselves: How does "true knowledge of God" multiply?
Through "progressive knowledge"? In other words, this may mean that errors and accuracy occur through attempts. And so the results change.

If one can describe the "progressive knowledge" of the Organization in this way, then it has nothing to do with their claim that the "holy spirit leads" GB and Organization with the same method, "progressive knowledge."
If the holy spirit uses the "progressive knowledge" method, what is it different from the human "progressive knowledge" method? 

Human using "progressive knowledge" from the beginning. Somehow we can tell it is "invention" made by God when he created human brain.  In Eden, Adam and Eve and their children accumulate their knowledge with years and experience. And in similar way WT Society done about Bible. I found interesting quote:

 “We tend to think human knowledge as progressive; because we know more and more, our parents and grandparents are back numbers. But a contrary theory is possible - that we simply recognize different things at different times and in different ways.”

No matter what is the case, I am not sure how we should involve "holy spirit" in our mathematics. WT Society and GB claims how they are "guided by spirit", is just moving ordinary human try to understand something with various methods of thinking ("progressive knowledge") on "higher level" to put impression on members, who want to believe how exactly that what WT publications bring them, is/are "God's truth". 

Change of methods how to gain "progressive knowledge" is visible in "changed approached about type and antitype". Your article say:  In times past, it was more common for our literature to take what might be called a type-antitype approach to Scriptural accounts. The Bible narrative was considered the type, and any prophetic fulfillment of the story was the antitype.... Additionally, it has been found that some of the older explanations about types and antitypes are unduly difficult for many to grasp. The details of such teachings—who pictures whom and why—can be hard to keep straight, to remember, and to apply. Of even greater concern, though, is that the moral and practical lessons of the Bible accounts under examination may be obscured or lost in all the scrutiny of possible antitypical fulfillments. ....Should we conclude that Bible narratives have only a practical application and no other meaning? No. Today our publications are more likely to teach that one thing reminds us of or serves to illustrate another. They are less likely to present many Bible accounts in a rigid framework of prophetic types and antitypes. For example, we can rightly say that Naboth’s integrity in the face of persecution and death reminds us of the integrity of Christ and his anointed. However, we can also be reminded of the faithful stand of many of the Lord’s “other sheep.” Such a clear and simple comparison has the hallmark of divine teaching.* - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2015202

..hallmark of divine teaching..  What is "divine teaching"? When WT Society had "divine teachings"? Before or after "changed approach"? Who caused "progress"? God, or human need to change what is old and making problem for WT GB theology?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

17 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

GB are so puffed up with themselves, and make so many stupid videos and make up new rules as they go along.

@Arauna  said " To you they are stupid videos........ so I wonder who is really puffed up ?  "

It has not been me that has posted those videos on here. It has not been me that has gone looking for such videos. I only know about those videos from other peoples post on here. We don't need to go into subject matter but even some JWs seem to find them stupid, pointless and certainly lacking any spiritual guidance. 

[Guest Tom Henry]

10 hours ago, Witness said:

Well, it was Jesus who spoke to Paul, twice:

As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

Thank you for making my point between the supernatural and physical appearance. Paul never meet Jesus personally. It's unfortunate people like (4jah2me) want to continue in ignorance just because a true Christian makes that distinction when there are no true Christians here to take light of a minor mistake. That is expected when no one here actually knows or understands the bible.

[Srecko Sostar]

31 minutes ago, Tom Henry said:

point between the supernatural and physical appearance

Physical appearance of angels (in various cases that Bible described) was supernatural, or?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

It's unfortunate people like (4jah2me) want to continue in ignorance 

@Tom Henry  Please do tell me what i want to continue in ignorance of ?  I'd love to here your opinion   

[Witness]

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

ou did not answer any of my previous questions regarding the forecourt if the temple...forecourt of the nations, forecourt of the women. 

You must be referring to Rev 7:9,14,15  You may want to go back and read Shiwiii’s post of December 24^th, quoting from the Insight Book….and my post of of Dec. 31^st.   Your argument of “forecourts” referring to the temple in Rev 7:14 cannot apply. 

naós (from naiō, "to dwell") – properly, a sanctuary (divine dwelling-place); a temple (sacred abode), the place of divine manifestation. 3485 (naós) refers to the sanctuary (the Jewish Temple proper), i.e. with just its two inner compartments (rooms). 

It proves not only that the anointed are the "dwelling"/"divine habitation" of God's Spirit, (1 Cor 3:16,17), the "temple"/"divine habitation" of 2 Cor 6:16, and the mobile "tabernacle"/"sanctuary"/"tent, booth, dwelling" of God's Spirit, that is blasphemed by the Beast/organization in Rev 13:6,7.  (STRONGS NT 4633: σκηνή)

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

Then you quote other scriptures which refer to illustrations where Paul says that we must be clean and pure - not commit fornication -   because "we are being built into stones of the heavenly temple"

The scripture accurately reads:

"Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, ⁵ you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. "  1 Pet 2:5

The anointed are members/stones of a holy priesthood, being built up a spiritual house; which is the Temple. 

“having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, ²¹ in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, ²² in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”  Eph 2:20-22

Each anointed is the dwelling place of God, stones that contribute to the completed "building".    

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

you put only the  emphasis  on the word "temple" and not on the context around it...... and you keep requoting that you " are the temple" when is says you are being built into a temple.....

Take for example the scripture you quoted above: 1pet2: 5- 10.  It says " you are being built into a holy temple"  it does not say you are "already the temple." ..... so you misquoted this scripture.....

I really don’t think so, Arauna.

“Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.” 1 Cor 3:16,17

“And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.” 2 Cor 6:16 

God’s “Temple” since Christ, is in Spirit.   It isn’t fixed in one place, just as the Ark of the Covenant wasn’t immobile.  2 Sam 7:5-7; John 2:19-21; Acts 7:48-50  Only the priests were allowed to carry it, and inside of it, were kept the laws given to Moses.  The ark symbolized the presence of God among His people, both when the priests were near it, and through the laws it held.  Later, the tabernacle held the ark, which was also portable, and located in the inner sanctuary where the ark was kept. 

It was the duty of the priests to teach the people, God’s laws

Mal 2:7 - “For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge,
And people should seek the law from his mouth;
For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

The law of Zion is coming from the" heavens" - we have come before mount Zion....the heavenly Jerusalem......hebr 12:22..... law is not coming from those who believe they are already  the "temple"  here on earth..... And another point:  Zion was the seat of 'rulership' not the temple.  No wonder you feel you should already be 'ruling'. Do you see yourself as king already? 

The holy priesthood, temple stones, were given God’s laws when they were anointed.  With the new “house” built on the Body of Christ, God’s priests must also carry out their assignment to teach God’s laws.  The apostles led the way in showing future “stones” how to complete this will of God.  They are not to wait to do God’s will to carry out their priestly duties.   Do you see any scriptural evidence of that with the foundation temple stones, the apostles?  Eph 2:20-22; 1 Cor 3:9-15

You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; ³ clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.  2 Cor 3:2,3

“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”  In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Heb 8:10,11

An anointed one can be “heavenly” while still on earth, if their name is registered in heaven, just as your scripture shows, and notice it doesn't say "before" Mount Zion as you state, but "to":

“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, ²³ to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,”

"Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."  Luke 10:20

“But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, ⁵ even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), ⁶ and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, “  Eph 2:4,5

Can you not see that being the “dwelling place” of God in Spirit is “heavenly”? "Daughter Zion" was God's Israel.  Jerusalem housed the early temple of God.  "Virgin daughter Zion" are the anointed "144,000", and "New Jerusalem" that "comes down from heaven" to reside with God's children on the earth.  Ps 9:14; Isa 52:2; Rev 14:4; 21:2

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

call you out because you constantly misquote scriptures.

Is it me, or you?

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

 The bible clearly indicates that one receives a token of holy spirit  in your heart that you are of the anointed - spirit of jehovah. It is a token  "in advance of your inheritance" . It does not mean that you have already received the inheritance. eph1: 13 & 14.

Yes, you are right in that they receive a “token” of Holy Spirit.  1 Cor 1:21,22 That deposit “sealed” on their hearts is the promise of the inheritance to come.  Jer 31:33  They must build on it, by taking in knowledge and growing in faith.  Those who are sealed into this promise, are to bear the seal of God:

“Imprint these words of mine on your hearts and minds, bind them as a sign on your hands, and let them be a symbol on your foreheads.”  Deut 11:18

If only God’s laws direct the lives of the anointed, through their actions and deeds, their hearts will speak the words of Christ which fulfilled the law. 

“These words that I am giving you today are to be in your heart.”  Deut 6:6

“A good person produces good out of the good stored up in his heart. An evil person produces evil out of the evil stored up in his heart, for his mouth speaks from the overflow of the heart.”  Luke 6:45

Misleading one’s hearers with false teachings in the name of the organization, and who’s mouth speaks from the “overflow of the heart”, do not bear the seal/mark of God and His laws in Christ.   They bear the mark of the organization and the teachings they uphold.  Rev 13:16,17  

Do false teachers, false “christs” have the token of Holy Spirit sealed in their hearts – that promise of the inheritance to come?  All of the anointed in the organization must make the decision, to bear either God’s seal upon their heart, mind and forehead, or that of the Beast/organization:

“He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Rev 13:16,17

Only one mark or seal, can bring us eternal life.  

God’s laws are pure, and stand alone in bringing one to salvation.  What comes out of the mouth of false prophets of “Israel”  is poisoned waters.  Rev 8:10,11; 13:11,12

“Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the Lord our God to go and worship the gods of those nations; make sure there is no root among you that produces such bitter poison. When such a person hears the words of this oath and they invoke a blessing on themselves, thinking, “I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way,” they will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. 20 The Lord will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them. All the curses written in this book will fall on them, and the Lord will blot out their names from under heaven. 21 The Lord will single them out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster, according to all the curses of the covenant written in this Book of the Law.”  Deut 29:18-21

“See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.”  Heb 12:15

“The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— 11 the name of the star is Wormwood.  A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.  Rev 8:10,11

 

@Arauna - The day of releasing from the flesh is not yet here....ep 4:30. 2 Corinthians 1:21 & 22 clearly indicates that the seal is a token of that which "is to come" - the spirit in our hearts.  

 

“Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. ¹⁷ Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”  2 Cor 5:16,17

Arauna, we have considered in length, what the new creation is about.  You have your belief, I have mine.  What I see is someone limiting the hand of God; His promises and ability to create what is new out of the old.  Your mind is stuck on the earthly vision and not the heavenly.  But, that’s just my opinion. 

"However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.  1 Cor 2:6-16

 

 

 

[Guest Tom Henry]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Physical appearance of angels (in various cases that Bible described) was supernatural, or?

I understand those opposed want to make an argument on anything they can cling onto, but who were the last people to see Jesus in spirit form? If anyone here wants to make an intelligent proposition without outright speculation than even seasoned witnesses here have a problem with, then by all means, lets distinguish those biblical understandings.