1914

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @Anna " I wonder what would cause someone to actually say “this is not what I have signed up for”. Maybe you have a few ideas? "

Child Sexual Abuse / Paedophilia hidden within the JW Org. 

Victims of CSA having been disfellowshipped for complaining to Elders. 

Victims of CSA being shunned for going outside the Org for help.

Immoral, dishonest lawyers being used by the GB to tell lies in court cases. 

The GB exalting themselves above the other Anointed. As it seems the complete remnant was the F&DS but now it's only those 8 Men. 

The GB suggesting that the rest of the Anointed 'keep quiet and do as they are told' by the GB / Elders of congregations.

The failed 'prophecies' of the JW Org. (1975 being one) 

The misuse of scriptures. Superior Authorities being one. 

The hypocrisy of the GB / Org advising people to read their own Bible, BUT not to have their own thoughts on scriptures.

The statement by one of the GB that 'God and Jesus Christ trusts us' whilst admitting finally that they are NOT inspired and do get things wrong. 

The list could be endless of course, as the GB are so puffed up with themselves, and make so many stupid videos and make up new rules as they go along. One such, that if a man and a woman spend a night in the same house they will be accused of fornication.... Strange in this day and age but if two men or two women spend a night in the same house I doubt they will be accused of homosexuality.  

And then it seems they are begging kids to give their ice cream money to the Org, whilst the Org is running big business project under different names. IBSA Properties London is one of them. 

Enough for now Anna ? 

 

[Anna]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Those who were members of the congregations while Peter and Paul etc. were alive are in heaven now, waiting for the full number of anointed to be sealed so that the body of Christ is physically not just spiritually whole.

I just ask: Are they in the heaven now?  And what is evidence how they were resurrected in spiritual bodies in the 1914 (as i can recall) as WT Society made claim? 

Whether they are in heaven already as the WT believes, or still asleep in death, it makes no difference to the fact that ALL the anointed have to be in heaven before it can be said that they rule with Christ and are with him physically.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

16 hours ago, Anna said:

I am not concerned about it because the true anointed have no need to seek each other in that way.

Perhaps most of them are quite old today, and many old people, as we know, in general have no interest and motivation for digital technologies:  whatsapp groups, facebook, google ..... :))) 

Yes. That is the practical view. That is why I don't think it can be important that they keep in touch with each other, because if it was, it would not be fair on the really old ones trying to work out all these technologies. 4Jah2me mentioned letter writing, well that too has it's limits because some of these older ones have trouble holding a pen (arthritis) or do not see very well anymore. Some younger ones (some are in their 50's) obviously would have no trouble with technology. But then where does that leave the older ones? We can already see that it is virtually impossible for ALL the anointed on earth to be in contact. So how fair would that be if only some were in contact? It would already nullify the idea that in order to be ONE body, they ALL have to be in contact with each other.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @Anna " It’s already been done with the apostles. It’s already all there in writing, in the scriptures for all to see. When the first Bible students got together under Russell, all they did was peel away years of false teachings of Christendom and exposed the grass roots of the Truth. "

1. Yes it's all there in the scriptures, but scriptures get misused, even by the GB / JW org. 

2. The FIRST Bible Students were the International Bible Students Association under Russell. They were Earth wide. They still are. 

The JW Org under Rutherford were apostates to those first Bible Students. 

But as you say many true meanings of many scriptures came forth way back then under Russell. Unfortunately it seems that Rutherford was too ambitious / big headed or something, and took on the role that he should never have taken on. Read the history..........

Quote @Anna " That was the whole point of the Christian congregation, which in those days must have represented the body of Christ because it was composed exclusively of the anointed. Today, the congregation, or body of Christ, remains undisturbed, as Jesus is still their head and the head of the congregation. "

Are you trying to suggest that the 'congregation' (present time) are the 'body of Christ ? 

Is this now GB / JW teaching ?  I do hope not. If so that would certainly be putting the Anointed down. 

 

[Kosonen]

21 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But as to whether all of Paul's writings were inspired, I don't know.  My point was though that I don't think Paul saw his letters as being inspired when he wrote them. He wrote in a rather blunt and direct way. 

@Srecko Sostar@Srecko Sostar

 

I understand this is an interesting question. But we should take apostle Paul's letters as God's word because he was an apostle appointed by Jesus directly and apostle Paul was undoubtedly lead by God's spirit while serving God and Christ and working to help early Christians to progress spiritually. Surely Jesus and God helped Paul to write good letters we can read and learn from today. 

Maybe our culture deems his way of expressing to be blunt. But I think that is only due to our culture. May be we are too polite? I have heard that even today Israelis in Israel are not so cautious when they speak as people in many parts of Europe, North America and Asia. But my mother tongue is Finnish and when I read apostle Pauls letters in Finnish his blunt way does not disturb me. But when I have read in English I have felt like he is complaining too much. But in Finnish I don't get that feeling. So I have switched to reading the Bible in Finnish. Finnish people are quite good at finding faults and telling that without finesse. So that maybe the cause.

[Anna]

41 minutes ago, Witness said:

The anointed would stand out as visible, as the true Zion, instead of the visible “Gentile” elder body, of the visible “Jehovah’s organization”. God would make sure of it. 

Are you saying God has not made sure of it?

43 minutes ago, Witness said:

The only way for a temple “living stone” to connect with Christ, the chief cornerstone, is to leave the organization, and repent for allowing an idol of deceit, trample and scattered them “among the nations”. 

I thought you said that it is essential that they join with each other while on earth? Because your concern was that the WT org. is trying to keep them apart. So are you saying the anointed that are within JW org and who die in JW org. will not be "connected with Christ"? Are you saying that right now there is a group of anointed who are not with JW org?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Was in the Jan 2016 WT, but here is the latest, Jan 2020 basically saying the same thing in par 7, as the 2016 WT

Thank you @Anna for sharing this information.   Two points.

1.  JEHOVAH foretold about our time: “Ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: ‘We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.’” (Zech. 8:23) The “Jew” here represents those whom God has anointed by holy spirit. They are also called “the Israel of God.” (Gal. 6:16) The “ten men” represent those who have the hope of living forever on earth. They know that Jehovah has blessed this group of anointed ones and feel that it is an honor to worship him along with them. 

How long have i been saying this on this forum ? Long before this was available in print. BUT the JEW is not the GB or its Writing department. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. ⁷ Anointed Christians do not feel that they should spend time only with other anointed ones, as if they were members of an exclusive club. They do not search out other anointed ones, hoping to discuss their anointing with them or to form private groups for Bible study. (Gal. 1:15-17) The congregation would not be united if anointed ones did those things. They would be working against the holy spirit, which helps God’s people to have peace and unity

Your GB are frightened. And what right do your GB have to tell other Anointed that they would be 'working against the holy spirit' ? 

This shows exactly how the GB are exalting themselves. They think they have the right to tell other Anointed what to do and what not to do. 

[Arauna]

On 1/9/2020 at 9:16 PM, 4Jah2me said:

However @JW Insider has answered it. I

You were fortunate that JWInsider answered it for you..... but it does not mean you believe it.... having said something different earlier.

[Srecko Sostar]

31 minutes ago, Anna said:

Whether they are in heaven already as the WT believes, or still asleep in death, it makes no difference to the fact that ALL the anointed have to be in heaven before it can be said that they rule with Christ and are with him physically.

It doesn't matter if .... we will looking on this doctrine as of minor importance :))) and if that WT explanation have no significance and influence on some other WT explanations :))

36 minutes ago, Anna said:

Some younger ones (some are in their 50's)

I am in late 50's, perhaps you too. We are "younger" .... definitely  :))))

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

16 minutes ago, Arauna said:

You were fortunate that JWInsider answered it for you..... but it does not mean you believe it.... having said something different earlier.

Two facts. 1. I answered your question. 2. You didn't like my answer.

So lets move on like adults, yes.

[Anna]

52 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

It’s already been done with the apostles. It’s already all there in writing, in the scriptures for all to see. When the first Bible students got together under Russell, all they did was peel away years of false teachings of Christendom and exposed the grass roots of the Truth. "

1. Yes it's all there in the scriptures, but scriptures get misused, even by the GB / JW org. 

2. The FIRST Bible Students were the International Bible Students Association under Russell. They were Earth wide. They still are. 

The JW Org under Rutherford were apostates to those first Bible Students. 

But as you say many true meanings of many scriptures came forth way back then under Russell. Unfortunately it seems that Rutherford was too ambitious / big headed or something, and took on the role that he should never have taken on. Read the history..........

You've been reading too much false information. Russell started the ball rolling but then he and his associates died. But it didn't end there, that is why I said that since then, some scriptures became clearer, and understood better. Knowledge is progressive as I am sure you will agree. It was during Rutherford's time that the Great crowd was identified. Until then it was thought all were going to heaven. When the scripture concerning the great crowd came to be understood, it brought a lot of joy to those who realised they were of the great crowd, because their desire was to live on earth. Everyone at that time had the opportunity for the first time to realise who they were. It must have been thrilling to say the least!

I am in no way saying Russell, Rutherford, or anyone after him didn't make mistakes or immediately got everything right. But I think that has always been your stumbling block. Your insistence that there must be NO mistakes and NO fault, despite knowing that all humans, including the anointed are imperfect, and that all those inspired and God fearing men in Bible times (Hebrew and Greek scriptures) made mistakes, some quite major ones. And still, God used them although he had to discipline them. Those who Jehovah loves he disciplines. If those who Jehovah loves didn't make mistakes, there would be no need for Jehovah to discipline them, would there?

The discipline from Jehovah is ongoing. Perhaps one of these reprimands have been regarding the CSA issue? Although as you know, this problem is complex and no one solution fits all. (You yourself were not sure how to proceed regarding one situation. You were worried about slander and concerns whether reporting to the Police was justified and the right thing to do. You were asking for opinion on here. You said it was because you did not have all the information. Well put yourself in the elders shoes. They do not always have all the information. Just like you, they are worried about barking up the wrong tree.) There have been recent and important clarifications regarding the reporting and handling of CSA. The biggest one is that ALL members of the congregation have been made aware of how to proceed, not just elders like in the past. Everyone can be on the same page now. That is a big improvement and a step forward. In my opinion it was discipline from Jehovah. I will address the other issues you mentioned in another post later....

56 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

That was the whole point of the Christian congregation, which in those days must have represented the body of Christ because it was composed exclusively of the anointed. Today, the congregation, or body of Christ, remains undisturbed, as Jesus is still their head and the head of the congregation. "

Are you trying to suggest that the 'congregation' (present time) are the 'body of Christ ? 

No, of course I am not saying that. I said that now, the congregations are mostly made up of the earthly class, but that does not mean that the body of Christ (the anointed) has been disturbed, or has no significance just because most congregations have no anointed in them at all.

[Anna]

24 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

and if that WT explanation have no significance and influence on some other WT explanations

What other WT explanations do you think are affected by whether the anointed that have died are now in heaven or not?

[Witness]

3 hours ago, Anna said:

4 hours ago, Witness said:

The anointed would stand out as visible, as the true Zion, instead of the visible “Gentile” elder body, of the visible “Jehovah’s organization”. God would make sure of it. 

Are you saying God has not made sure of it?

Do YOU recognize the anointed as God’s priesthood or do you recognize the elders as “representing God’s royal priesthood”?  2 Thess 2:3,4

3 hours ago, Anna said:

I thought you said that it is essential that they join with each other while on earth? Because your concern was that the WT org. is trying to keep them apart.

It is essential, but not possible in the organization.

3 hours ago, Anna said:

So are you saying the anointed that are within JW org and who die in JW org. will not be "connected with Christ"? 

Is it possible for them to connect with Christ which also means connecting with the members of Christ, if they submit themselves to men who say, they are not to “bond”? Is that what Paul preached?  Do you see that men’s doctrine holds more credulity among JWs, than God’s word?   What is more important, the unity of the Body of Christ which results in the coming Kingdom, or the unity of an earthly organization that hides the identity of those who are the “living stones” of the true temple of God?  JWs are never encouraged to seek out the anointed; rather, they are greatly encouraged to seek out the elders and honor them, as if through them, the Kingdom of God will arrive. Is this what you believe?  If so ,this "image" that the organization is "spirit-directed", through a counterfeit priesthood, is what you truly believe is Zion; which is a counterfeit of God's true Zion/Temple of God, and is an idol.    Rev 13:1,2,4-7;11,12,15

There is no possible way for the anointed to follow the words Paul established in 1 Cor 12, if they are told, not by their Head, Jesus Christ, but by uninspired men that they must not bond together.  The organization is a ruse - Satan's deceitful, well-established ruse, that he uses to attack the "remaining ones of the woman's seed".  Rev 12:1-4,15; 2 Thess 2:9-12

 

3 hours ago, Anna said:

Are you saying that right now there is a group of anointed who are not with JW org?

I know of many anointed who have left the organization, awake to the role of Christ in their lives.  

I know of anointed who preach Rev 11:1-3 and Rev 18:4-8