1914

[Witness]

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

es indeed! Why did jehovah give prophecies about beasts which represented Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, anglo- American world powers.......UN or coalition of nations  (image of the beast) and eighth kingdom? So we do not have to read these prophecies at all and ignore them and sit online separated from Jehovahs people and believe ourselves to be holy.  We should  never watch the news but go online and  mislead others with our weak understanding of what is going on around us.  God expects us to be vigilant - not foolish.

Well, you had better get ready for every JW to be taken captive by the United Nations/Beast. Rev 13:10  They will be “captured” by the “empty philosophy” of  the UN and its religious conglomerate.  Col 2:8 

In your world, that coalition of nations will target and “blaspheme” the Temple/anointed priests, (Rev 13:5)  somehow singling them out of 8 million people,  to “make war” with them. Dan 8:24,11; Rev 13:6   The "saints" will be conquered. Rev 13:7   Yet, before that happens, all JWs will “worship” the United Nations, willingly bearing its mark. Rev 13:16,17 They will say, “Who is like the United Nations, who can fight a war with it?”  Rev 13:4  As you now see, there is a developing cry of “peace and security” by the dual Beasts. It endeavors to proclaim "peace and security" for all who receive its mark.  1 Thess 5:3 

Since you see things literally, some JWs under its captivity will then stand up to this UN Beast,  and will be physically killed for speaking out against the dual rulership of a false prophet and Beast organization over them. Rev 13:1,2,11,12  Yes, if they reject the identifying mark of the UN Beast, they are killed.   Yet, many JWs will choose to remain with the UN Beast.  Rev 14:9-10; 16:2 

Can you see THIS coming?  This is the only way it can play out in your literal world.  Can you also tell me how the UN  will become “spirit-directed”? Rev 13:15 

No other organization touts to be spirit-directed (“spirit breathed”), but the Watchtower. Rev 13:15

Satan is making his obvious display of prophetic fulfillment in the world, but in the hand he holds behind his back, is the threat that God’s people are already under.  JWs believe they reside in "peace and security".  Your leaders have even written a book about it.  

[TrueTomHarley]

3 hours ago, Kosonen said:

But I will not join any church. I can not stand false teachings. I would prefer if people would listen to what I teach based on God's word.

Probably you do not mean this as it sounds. But for the moment, let me take you at your word.

You are saying that there is no group not disqualified in your eyes. They are all contaminated with false teachings. These is but a single source to be taught God’s word without error—you.

Really?

[Arauna]

9 hours ago, Witness said:

They will be “captured” by the “empty philosophy” of  the UN and its religious conglomerate.  Col 2:8 

Now that is another  false prophecy to add to the others you have uttered.  Only JWs? Really?  As I have said before your emotional opposition blinds you to reality and makes you say unwise things. Do you ever look at what you say? Do you believe that your righteousness is so great you can condemn all JWs?   Your zealousness reminds me of the jihadis who will wear a vest of destruction in its condemnation of those who do not agree with their extreme religiosity.

10 hours ago, Kosonen said:

As Jesus said weeds mixed with wheat.

Have you read this illustration properly? It is in Matt 19. 

It indicates that the weeds were sown in time of apostles and were not completely  removed. These weeds would multiply and would only be removed after their fruits were fully visible in time of end.  What were these weeds sown by Satan?  Well the apostles had to fight against the Greek ideas that were infiltrating the congregations.  Apart from approving  immorality by allowing gross sins in the congregation (which Paul often spoke out against) there are many pagan ideas in the christian denominations today that can be traced back through the Greeks to ancient Babylon such as triad gods, triad devils,  the immortality of the soul,  and many more teachings that are prevalent in most Christian denominations today.  These denominations are part of the world-wide organised religions which is called Babylon the Great in Revelation 17 & 18.

Most religions on earth today believe in the immortality of the soul which gave birth to the teaching if hellfire, reincarnation, nirvana, ancestor worship, kabbalah...etc.  

 

9 hours ago, Witness said:

In your world, that coalition of nations will target and “blaspheme” the Temple/anointed priests, (Rev 13:5)  somehow singling them out of 8 million people,  to “make war” with them. Dan 8:24,11; Rev 13:6   The

You assume too much on what I believe.

 

9 hours ago, Witness said:

all JWs will “worship” the United Nations, willingly bearing its mark. Rev 13:16,1

Do you know what the mark if the beast is? Because you apparently know and are now prophesying that we all will have this mark.

9 hours ago, Witness said:

you see things literally, some JWs under its captivity will then stand

I have met many evangelicals who think like you. They literally think that God only speaks to them and they believe the entire bible is only spiritual.   They actually believe that Jesus' death was not litteral but only spiritual

9 hours ago, Witness said:

This is the only way it can play out in your literal world.  Can you also tell me how the UN  will become “spirit-directed”? Rev 13:15 

I cannot understand this kind of thinking .... even if I try.  You are either off on abberation or delusional about what JWs believe....  

[Arauna]

15 hours ago, Kosonen said:

preaching a such message as did apostle Paul.

No - they do not. Here is something to think about: we do not believe humans have an immortal soul.

Most churches believe in the immortality of the soul. The bible says "the ' soul' that sinneth it shall die" ezekiel 18:4. The prophecy about Jesus's death in Isaiah 53 ( last verses) indicates jesus would put his "soul" in death.  He was mortal.

Jesus received 'immortality' from his father as a reward for obedience until death. The bible promises immortality and incorruptability to those who are baptized in the death of Jesus. They do not have immortality BEFORE they die. There is a difference between living forever and immortality. 

Satan was mortal - when he sinned God said he would destroy him in future.  He will never exist again. Adam was mortal but would have lived forever if he obeyed God. Adam's everlasting life depended on his obedience to jehovah.

This is huge difference between JWs and all other cristian denominations because churches talk about the randsom sacrifice but do not accept that Jesus really died- that he did not exist for three days. His father Jehovah (who is immortal and cannot die) restored Jesus' life to him after three days and gave him his own source of life - immortality.

They (christian churches) tell you Jesus died ....but in same breath say he was immortal before his death. They say he was God.  They believe all people have a soul that goes out when the person dies and goes directly fo heaven or hell.....but why would God bring someone back from heaven to be resurrected...... when this does not fit in with what the bible teaches in other places?

If one does not exercise faith in the randsom sacrifice then one cannot be saved. It is crucial to understand the randsom...properly....... So what does the bible say about the soul?

Eccl 3:19 & 20 says that people die like an animal - we go to dust and do not exist any longer in any form until the (father - which means life-giver) resurrects us.

Eccl 9:5 & 10 indicates the dead cannot think or do anything in death. No knowledge, planning nor wisdom.

God made Adam from dust. Adam could not think before he became a living soul  - dust cannot think.  God blew life into him and he became a living soul  Gen 2: 7  After his sin, God said he would go back to dust - the same condition he was in before he was created. Gen 3: 19.

So this is why JWs study this and related subjects in depth.... as a people we have lots of faults but we teach the truth about "what the bible really says".

 

Just an added thought:  Christian genocide is going on in middle east and north Africa.  The press is not writing about the Muslim killings.  These Christian's are dying like flies. I believe God will give them resurrection because death is a payment for sin; and, despite having little knowledge of jehovah and Jesus they have proved their loyalty.  They are some of the 'unrighteous ' who will get a resurrection in future and be taught the truth about jehovah 

Acts 24:15

"And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous"

 

[Witness]

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

Do you know what the mark if the beast is? Because you apparently know and are now prophesying that we all will have this mark.

The Mark of the Beast of Rev 13:18 is the application of a physical, emotional and spiritual identification of serving and submitting oneself to the Wild Beast; to its mission, teachings by a false prophet that it directs (Beast from the Earth, Rev 13:11,12)  and allowance of its controlling power over an individual. This servitude begins with baptism in the organization; it continues through submission to its philosophies and expectations of only “buying and selling” spiritual “food” that it offers – no matter the quality.  Matt 12:34,35; Rev 13:16,17

This mark contradicts the identifying mark we should be bearing:

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. ⁵ Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. ⁶ These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. ⁷ Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. ⁸ Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. ⁹ Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.”  Deut 4:5-8

Hopefully, you see the difference.  We can’t profess to symbolically tie God’s commandments on our hands and foreheads, and also follow the commands and doctrines of men that have been proven to be wrong.  This is idolatry.  

The “two witnesses” of Rev 11:3, reject the “mark of the Beast” and are “killed” for doing so. Rev 11:7 They come off “victorious”.  These are the symbolic “two” (meaning truth) anointed witnesses who stand with Christ.  (Zech 4) We cannot be considered victorious about anything, unless we conquer it.

 In your physical view that the UN/nations is the Beast, you would have to accept that a literal death would occur to the literal two anointed ones who had at one point accepted the “mark” of the Beast (which some believe is also literal), and then be physically killed later, for rejecting it.  This is nonsense.

 

“I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! ¹⁶ So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. ¹⁷ You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. ¹⁸ I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

¹⁹ Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. ²⁰ Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

²¹ To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. ²² Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”  Rev 3:15-22

 Jesus doesn’t offer us material riches, but the riches of Truth and Life.  Those who are wretched and poor, are buying their spiritual food from a false prophet and the organization it directs -  the two Beasts of Revelation.  JWs are content to rely on the Beasts to feed them, instead of Christ. Although they believe they serve only God, and bear His mark, they bear the “mark” of those whom they wholeheartedly support, the earthly endeavors of men and their doctrine.   Matt 6:24; 2 Tim 4:3,4

To prove that the Beast of Revelation 13:1,2 is the Watchtower and houses JWs, Revelation 15 reveals the victorious ones, who were sensible enough to accept Christ’s discipline and his “gold”,  and remove the “mark of the Beast”:

I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. ² And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name. They held harps given them by God ³ and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb:

“Great and marvelous are your deeds,
    Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
    King of the nations.
⁴ Who will not fear you, Lord,
    and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
    and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.”  Rev 15:1-4

 

All who remove the “mark of the Beast” and turn to Christ, fully accepting his discipline and his truth, bearing only God’s commandments on their forehead and on their hands, profess the True God and the Lamb, as our salvation.

They reject idolatry:

Kingdom Ministry 11/1990 p. 1  Directing Bible Students to Jehovah’s Organization 

"Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at John 10:16. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. (Rev. 7:9, 10, 15) Therefore, we should start directing our Bible students to the organization as soon as a Bible study is established."  

 

 

 

 http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/05/a-letter-i-received-hi-sister-pearl-i.html

[Witness]

33 minutes ago, Witness said:

We cannot be considered victorious about anything, unless we conquer it.

"Conquering" involves battle:

" And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation."  Rev 13:5-7

War using blasphemy - "slander, detraction, speech injurious, to another's good name"

Such as, "honor" the elders, do not give "honor" to the anointed.  They cannot join together and study as a united group.  Can't you see? Such slander is needed to preserve the wicked slave's power and the organization/idol she currently "rides".  Rev 17:3-6

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."  Rev 16:13,14

Those "kings" belong to Christ!  Rev 1:5,6

 

[Kosonen]

@TrueTomHarley No, I am not saying that I know all the answers. But the problem with churches and WT organization is that you can not even present a different view point without disiplinary measures. Within Jehovah's witnesses it includes all baptised members. In other chrches it might only include ministers. But probably you would be expelled if you started to speak against trinity from most of the church meetings.

Such harsh treatment can not be christian. It is very hypocritical that WT organization says it bases all their doctrines on the Bible and are reasonable and open to new light. And when some member has found something in the Bible contrary to the WT explanations, then we are denied to even discuss our findings even with elders. If we would be wrong they should be able to logically explain using the Bible if we are mistaken. When I told the elders that I have found some flaws in the WT explanations on Biblical doctrines the elders refused to even look at what I had found. That smells bad. It can only mean that they do not have counter arguments to many questions. If they are not sure about what is the truth, why then require total acceptance of those doctrines? That is stupid. 

I am for what I believe to be true and I want to share that. And you are wellcome to examine my arguments and come with biblical counterarguments. That is how the true knowledge will increase.

 

@Arauna I meant what apostle Paul shortly told the Athenians at that particular occasion.

Acts17:30 True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance;+ but now he is declaring to all people everywhere that they should repent. 31  Because he has set a day on which he purposes to judge+ the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has provided a guarantee to all men by resurrecting him from the dead.”

And that is the central message all churches preach. On that occasion Paul did not get into any other biblical doctrines. 

[Kosonen]

@Arauna And a base for so many erroneous WT teachings is the belief that 1914 was a start for many prophecies about the end time, including all what consern time times and half a time. That in turn affect the beasts described in Daniel and Revelation and what really the mark of the beast represent? Those prophecies are very important to understand correctly. And better not to affirm something as  absolute truth if it it is not yet fully clear. 

For example I can not believe  WT teachings about:

Babylon the Great, the image of the beast, the beast with seven heads in Revelation 13, the two withesses, the mark of the beast, woman and her flight to the wildernes, the disgusting thing and so on. 

 

 

 

 

[Anna]

On 1/3/2020 at 2:29 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Do you recommending "silence"? Silently disagree with some official teachings and stay (or go out) without warning others about dangerous of such teachings? That is against principles WT Society use itself,  to warn people about some dangerous that you see it exist and can harm people. (Ezekiel book)

Well it depends what it is. If it would be something blatantly against scripture, then you can bet you would not be the only one to notice this, and others would say something, if not everyone. But if it was something that was ambiguous, then it would be wise to wait until things became clearer. There are many things where we might have our own opinion, even regarding the interpretation of some scriptures. But unless there is only ONE possible way of looking at something, who is to say WE are right?

I am not sure what you mean by “dangerous teachings”. Something from the Ezekiel book?

On 1/2/2020 at 10:38 PM, Witness said:

On 1/2/2020 at 8:45 PM, Anna said:

However the Bible says the miracles would cease.

Can you point that out in the Bible for me?

1 Cor 13:8  “Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with”.

In context Paul is saying that these “gifts” will cease or “fail” but what will remain is “faith”  “hope” and “ love” …the greatest being love. Everything that we are to know has been recorded by those who had those gifts. The Bible is complete, with nothing more to be added to it. So these gifts of prophesy are no longer needed and neither are “tongues” .  What we can increase is knowledge, and “when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial (the knowledge) will be done away with and will become complete as per Daniel 12:4.

On 1/2/2020 at 10:38 PM, Witness said:

"that there should be no division in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it."  1 Cor 12:25,26

The little flock (the anointed) and the great crowd, those who are not anointed, become one flock as Jesus said. There is no separation of the Christian congregation and no separation of the body of Christ, they are all united in thought, after all, that is what Paul had in mind, because it was impossible for ALL the anointed to be together physically. 

On 1/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, 4Jah2me said:

I think this question has been answered many times before on this forum and it seems you are just going around in circles. Not only me but others also have made mention of the faults of the GB. Besides which you and other JWs will only make excuses for the GB and the Writing Dept and the Elders at al. 

Ahh, the faults of the GB. Well this too has been brought out many times, that faults and mistakes will will happen, just as they did with Jesus’ disciples.

On 1/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, 4Jah2me said:

Quote "Blaming the GB et al for not using our brains is just another example of not using our brains. Each person is responsible for their own spirituality." 

Didn't one of the GB say 'God and Jesus Christ trusts us, so do you trust us?'  Wasn't that a sly way of the GB saying to JWs 'You have to believe what we say'.

We have also talked about this. There is a degree of trust necessary with anyone acting in the capacity of authority. Even though we know such persons of authority can make mistakes, we still trust them to do their best in that capacity. This goes for doctors, police, etc.There is nothing wrong with trusting the elders, trusting that they have our good interests at heart. HOWEVER if we find that individuals are going against the Bible, then we may, in fact we must, report it.. Depending on how serious it is (I think child abuse is exempt from this, and should be reported to the elders and Police) the Bible gives steps on how to handle situations like that. Matthew 18:15-17 "  “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault* between you and him alone.n If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.16  But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony* of two or three witnesses every matter* may be established.17  If he does not listen* to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen* even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector" .But we have also talked about this..So if we feel a brother has wronged us, we go to the brother first. If we find out a brother has committed a sin, we go to that brother first.

On 1/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, 4Jah2me said:

 Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among youz and be submissive,a for they are keeping watch over you* as those who will render an account,b so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.

Are you saying this scripture is wrong?

On 1/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, 4Jah2me said:

Quote "When we stand in front of the judgment seat of God, there isn’t going to be an elder holding our hand, or telling us how to think... "          No not then but there are NOW. 

Oh really? Well they are not holding mine, and I am sure I am not the only one whose hand they're not holding.

On 1/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, 4Jah2me said:

The GB say they are the F&DS and have said in W/t that they are the ONE channel that God is using (although denying it at ARC) and that congregants should trust THEM. The GB give 'authority' through the ranks, down to the Elders. Then the scripture at Hebrews mentioned above is used to enforce the Elders 'authority'. 

So, if a person is an obedient JW, they cannot choose to be responsible for their own spirituality if it goes against serving the GB and the JW Org.  You and others cannot get this through your heads. 

What I don't think you can get through your head is that the primary measuring stick for obedience is : we must obey God as ruler rather than men, and even if Angel's declared it to us. Gal 1:8

To be continued.......

[Witness]

4 hours ago, Anna said:

1 Cor 13:8  “Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with”.

In context Paul is saying that these “gifts” will cease or “fail” but what will remain is “faith”  “hope” and “ love” …the greatest being love. Everything that we are to know has been recorded by those who had those gifts. The Bible is complete, with nothing more to be added to it. So these gifts of prophesy are no longer needed and neither are “tongues” .  What we can increase is knowledge, and “when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial (the knowledge) will be done away with and will become complete as per Daniel 12:4.

You missed 1 Cor 13:9,10 and focused only on knowledge.  Prophesy brings forth knowledge.

“For we know in part and we prophesy in part. ¹⁰ But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

“that which is perfect” has not arrived until the Kingdom arrives.  Prophesy will exist until then, as will the increase of knowledge.   Prophesy will cease, when what was prophesied, is fulfilled.

 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.”  Acts 2:17

A prophet comes in the last days, in the spirit of “Elijah”. 

Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things.  Matt 17:11

Jesus “shows” his servants what must take place in the last days.  The understanding of Revelation that John wrote down, is only through a prophet.  Rev 1:1

Rev 11:3 –  ^“And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Rev 10:7 -  “but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.”

4 hours ago, Anna said:

There is no separation of the Christian congregation and no separation of the body of Christ, they are all united in thought, after all, that is what Paul had in mind, because it was impossible for ALL the anointed to be together physically. 

 Quite the theory.  You are apparently making up doctrine  about the Body of Christ, contrary to the WT; which in this case, they are right…until they change it, which I expect to happen any time.   https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200021176

4 hours ago, Anna said:

The little flock (the anointed) and the great crowd, those who are not anointed, become one flock as Jesus said.

The little flock (Matt 15:24; 10:6) were the physical Jews; added to them, were  physical “Gentiles”(Acts 13:46; 3:25; Rom 11:25; 9:6,18) all anointed, becoming “Israel” and “one flock”.  There is no more “little flock” and “other sheep”, but the anointed Body of Christ. Eph 2:11-22

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

9 hours ago, Anna said:

I am not sure what you mean by “dangerous teachings”. Something from the Ezekiel book?

Generally said, all teachings that are not approved by God and Jesus are "dangerous" in various levels of danger. Because such teachings not bring people closer to more proper view, perspective on things (i would avoid wording as "closer to truth"), but doing contrary. 

Ezekiel book 3:18,19

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among youz and be submissive,a for they are keeping watch over you* as those who will render an account,b so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.

Are you saying this scripture is wrong?

@Anna  I think you know what I said, but I will repeat it. THE SCRIPTURE IS MISUSED. 
Anyone could use it. The Pope or an Archbishop. The scripture itself is not wrong, it is the use of the scripture by those not having authority from God or Christ. That includes the GB and Elders. 

A well known example of this is obviously the Elders telling victims of Child Sexual Abuse, NOT to go to the police or authorities 'because it would bring shame on God's name and the Org'. 

We could also show the misuse of this scripture, as at the time the congregation of JWs were told that the early 1970's was going to be Armageddon and they were told to be ready and to step up the preaching work. So congregants were obedient and submissive and sold their homes and left their jobs and preached full time. And then ................. oh dear. 

The opposite of submissive is domineering which seems suitable for the GB and the Elders.

And the Greek word that is translated 'submissive', in the Interlinear is actually 'yielding'. And yielding means 'giving way under pressure'.  

So the GB / JW Org use that scripture to show congregants how to :- 'give way under pressure' to a domineering GB and their Elders.  

Now I hope that explains it clearly enough for you. 

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Quote @Anna  Ahh, the faults of the GB. Well this too has been brought out many times, that faults and mistakes will will happen, just as they did with Jesus’ disciples.

Did Jesus or the disciples ever put a date on a prophecy and then it didn't take place ? 

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Quote @Anna  Matthew 18:15-17 "  “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault* between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.16  But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony* of two or three witnesses every matter* may be established.17  If he does not listen* to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen* even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector"

So when exactly do the Elders 'speak to the congregation' and when does the wrongdoer get to listen to the congregation ? 

Matt 18 v 17 If he does not listen* to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen* even to the congregation ........... 

The Elders form a committee and things are dealt with 'behind closed doors'. Now according to the Matthew scripture that is going against the things written, because it clearly states to take matters to the congregation, and, to let the wrong doer have conversation with the congregation over the matter. 

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