1914

[Arauna]

30 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Abraham and Sarah didn't have clear evidence how they will have son in old age. They had Promise. And they, more or less (when Sara laughed, that was sort of sound reasoning on issue) hoped that maybe this will be or how good it will be if somehow would be. But to secure offspring, Sara gave Agara to his husband, because she believed how there is more chance that old Abraham come to be father with young woman. Yes, they showed "faith" or whatever that is, without clear evidence about possible miracle, because such miracle they not saw happened before to someone else. One sort of clear evidence and sound reasoning would be exactly this: how same thing already happened to someone else, so we can "believe" it can happen to us also. 

Isaac and his obeying to father i don't see as he had a faith about  own resurrection. Did he already had some clear evidence how God made resurrection in similar situation? We today have no clear evidence based on reading in Bible writings to show us what Isaac knew about resurrection issue and what he thinking about. We just give our assuming. Isaac has had less, because he could only saw dying and death of people and no res

Sarah laughed because she did not believe life in old woman's womb was possible. When it happened - their faith in God was strengthened because the promise was fulfilled about promised birth. Unseen evidence in reality.

But the promise of Messiah was thru the line of isaac. Now God wanted Abraham  to offer up isaac. They believed god could raise up isaac again to fulfill this promise based on the EVIDENCE they saw before in life - that God could restore life to a dead womb.  They must have told Isaac over and over the story of his birth and angel's promise from God. So isaac also had faith that God could restore his life.   This was based on the evidence of the unseen "reality" that God had restored Sarah's womb to give life to have him born.

[Srecko Sostar]

42 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Sarah laughed because she did not believe life in old woman was possible. When it happened - their faith in God was strengthened because the promise was fulfilled about promised birth.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts. Sarah " did not believe" (she laughed) because she hadn't clear evidence how promise is possible to come true. In other words she hadn't clear evidence to support her faith, to strengthen her faith. In fact she hadn't faith at all. And she showed lack of own faith with her laughing. In next 25 years they not showed faith in the promise. They didn't wait on JHVH! In that period Hagar came in family and give child.

Only after, she was able to build her faith in God on some other level. 

To come back to 1914. WT society, similar to Abraham and Sarah didn't wait on JHVH too. But they entering own 1914 Promise how Kingdom will be born on Earth in that year. After they changed that same Promise, Kingdom borned Invisibly in 1914. 

Promise, supposedly made by JHVH and Jesus how his Kingdom will come (to be born)  and change everything in 1914, was turned by JW's Mother Organization (Sarah) into involving "Agara" into "marriage, family" and thus Ismael aka false Kingdom was born in 1914.

This is just fictional illustration for JW members who are sure how (based on clear evidence :)) ) their Mother Organization is JHVH' wife. Well, who is JW and WT organization, Sarah or Hagar?

[Arauna]

52 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

believe" (she laughed) because she hadn't clear evidence how promise is possible to come

You have lost the thread of our discussion. I used this experience as an example to prove that Sarah did NOT believe because she did NOT have evidence. Later when her promise was fulfilled both she and Abraham had clear evidence that Jehovahs promise about " all nations would be blessed " (jesus as seed) would come true.

So when God wanted abraham to sacrifice isaac - he had true faith based on the clear EVIDENCE of reality he had seen fulfilled before..... of life to be restored.

Today we can see consistency in Jehovahs promise regarding the future government under Jesus. We can follow the timeline of rulerships that were predicted and many more prophecies which give Evidence that jehovah's plans are still on track and being fulfilled exactly on time!  The unseen EVIDENCE is there! 

The timelines are there for evidence that jehovah is still administering his purpose / restoration plan of the earth. This is why I have such a keen interest in fulfillment of all prophecy and the time-lines connected to them.   It proves the bible to be a reality!  There is no doubt in my mind that 1914 is correct when one studies the proohecies connected to the timeline of the beast heads and when the kingdom would appear. 

On 1/5/2020 at 9:11 AM, César Chávez said:

will just continue to post so as not to offend people with pride and give them the excuse, other people have cited things

 

I am not rude by not responding.... I want to schedule a block time to read your contribution and think about it.

I like your thought above. We can learn from each other without nasty rhetoric.  I am looking at what you wrote and will respond later with my thoughts.

I unfortunately moved around a lot and left some of my best books behind in USA and other countries as my load became lighter and lighter.  I only kept one or two books which I will not find again. So I write from memory.

Thanks for your effort.... I appreciate it.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

that Sarah did NOT believe because she did NOT have evidence.

Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen. Heb 11 1

Faith as state of our mind and heart, not need evidence. Because when you see evidence you don't need faith for what you see and about what this particular evidence serve to prove. Only "evidence" Abraham and Sarah received was spoken promise. Words they received was in form of Promise, and not in form of Testimony or Indication. If, that they then did a miracle, made from people/angels who gave Promise, for example to make bread - (of) - from stones, that would serve to Abraham and Sarah, as Indication - sign, how another miracle, future birth of son, is also possible. I that case her "faith in promise" would be supported by Evidence of bread made from stones.

Definition of evidence

 (Entry 1 of 2)

1a: an outward sign : INDICATION

b: something that furnishes proof : TESTIMONY specifically : something legally submitted to a tribunal to ascertain the truth of a matter

2: one who bears witness especially : one who voluntarily confesses a crime and testifies for the prosecution against one's accomplices

 

[Arauna]

On 1/5/2020 at 9:11 AM, César Chávez said:

The main purpose of the festival was for the ruler to be reaffirmed in his office by the gods, and for his people to be assured of another peaceful and prosperous year.

Agreed.  While many gods were related to the cycles of the agricultural land to provide seasonal food.....one must keep in mind that these gods were all part of  the star and planet worship.  Each God had a celestial body linked to it with its oracles and divination. The king had to ensure that the stars, birds, sticks lined up and liver divination were in confirmation before he undertook any major task. Each day started with these rituals. 

I looked up kingship on Google to find the explanation of how important the priest-king and this ritual/procession  of akitu was. This ritual in ancient Mesopotamia influenced the entire ancient world for at least two millennia.  Assyria had many of its kings confirmed in Babylon or followed similar rituals in their own city-states. I will put the quote below before I close.

I recall how Alexander the Great offered a bull at temple of Amun in Egypt and was confirmed as a Pharoah with great ritual, then he went into the desert  to confirm his kingship at the Oracle of Amun.  Superstition was the means by which people lived in those days and rituals to gods, shrines, predictions, divination and spells were daily occurrences. Kings had to be confirmed by the gods of the city-state to be accepted by the people.  

Cyrus the great did the same in Babylon. He had to be confirmed as supreme ruler of the entire region to have the gods (and people)) smile upon him with favor.

The kings were priests and kings - and one cannot forget that.  The priests were powerful but the high king-priest took the lead in festival of akitu as this represented the ritual of the God of the city and of major importance was to be reappointed as the king.  The two- year  nature of this festival may explain why cyrus was only installed as the king of the four corners of the earth in 538 BCE and not in 539 BCE. One must also keep in mind that Nabonidus did not partake of these rituals which caused the people to superstitiiously fear that  "evil" would come upon the city. Beltshazzar may have stood in for his father at Akitu but the people viewed it as treachery for Nabonides to go and build a temple to the moongod in Tema.  A similar event happened in the time when Pharoah Akhenaten brought in a new sungod during his reign.  The people hated him and the people feared retaliation from the gods. 

The babylonian king, in ritual , humbled himself before the people and then his kinghip was restored to him  by the "heavens" and culminated by sleeping with the " queen of the heavens " at the temple which was on top of the ziggurat / tower of Babel (which had been  beautifully restored in time of Nebuchadrezzar 2).  His kingship was restored to him by the highest God of  city.

The position of king-priest was crucial to keep relations harmonius etween heavenly gods and earthly beings - their mentality cannot in any way be compared to modern logical thinking.  Fear and superstition ruled supreme. Ritual and religiosity was the norm - one had to fear the gods. I recall that Socrates had to commit suicide because people in Athens believed he was impious because he offended certain gods, especially Zeus. 

Here is the quote about kingship in

Mesopotamia: 

According to the present state of knowledge, the most ancient form of kingship is connected to the birth of an urban society in the Low Mesopotamia toward the end of the fourth millennium bce. A rich stock of technical experience from the Chalcolithic era, certain favorable ecological and climatic changes, and an increase in population contributed to the birth of the first city, Uruk (perhaps an analogous yet independent process started in High Mesopotamia). This process was connoted by the creation of a bureaucratic apparatus and by the hierarchical partition of depersonalized work. However, it is not possible to obtain any direct information about the form of government of this society. Notwithstanding the privileged condition afforded by the great amount of written documents discovered, it is yet not possible—due to the characteristics of the texts themselves—to adequately answer any questions on fundamental topics related to Mesopotamian kingship.

The whole Mesopotamian civilization constantly strove to conform human society to the model offered by the divine world. In the pantheon, below the remote heaven god An was Enlil (Lord Wind), who, as the only one who could touch the unreachable sky of his father, An, played a very forceful role on earth. Enlil was the king of all gods, and they would travel to his see, his temple in Nippur, to draw from him his superior divine power. Under his rule, the demiurge god, Enki, ascribed specific tasks to every single divinity, each of whom had his see in a particular city. Enlil (named "the trader" for his mediating function) constituted the paradigm of kingship: from their various sees and tasks the gods were unified under his authority and, through him, could reach—albeit in an indirect way—the summit of the sky. In the same way, the king, being the vertex of society, acted as the point of contact between the latter and the world of the gods. Wolfgang Heimpel presented a theory (1992), based on consistent clues, about the passage from a form of a kingship, which was temporally limited and elective (by means of oracles, related to the royal title en ), to a dynastic form, legitimized by royal birth (related to the royal title lugal). Sumerian literature explicitly states that kingship, besides being of divine origin because it descends from the heaven of the gods, makes possible civilization, the acme of which resided in worship (the relationship with the gods) and justice (the preservation of the order the gods wanted). Humanity, being the consignee of such an important gift, must certainly play a central role in the universe.

Various anthropogonic myths tell how humans were created from the gods in order to relieve the inferior divinities from the trouble of running the cosmos. The human task, therefore, is a task of divine level, and it was with this aim that man had been brought into being by mixing clay with the flesh and blood of a killed god. The sovereign is, therefore, he who leads society towards the realization of the divine design, which is made known to him by means of divinatory practices: according to one tradition, the primeval sovereigns were the keepers of the divinatory science (Lambert, 1967). In relation to the gods, the king is thus the vertex of humanity. The reign is therefore thought of as an ordered area (cosmos), departing from a "center"—the point where the horizontal surface of the world of men meets the vertical axis elevating to the heaven of the gods; it is this connection that defends the reign (i.e., cosmos) against the unruliness of chaos. The breaking of this axis causes the collapse of the kingdom's defenses, thereby allowing the devastating forces of chaos to rush in. As is unequivocally clear, this "center" is represented on a social level by the temple (the see of the city-god) and by the king. In this context the king is seen as the steward of the god housed in the temple. It is the god who is the veritable owner of the kingdom. Thus, the building of his temple is the culminating point of the king's activity, and the king demonstrates in this way that he has achieved the god Enki/Ea's knowledge (Matthiae, 1994) after having first established justice, enlarged the cosmos or contained chaos (all errands exalting his solar character)" 

 

 

 

 

 

[Witness]

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

I agree with first part of the statement. What we see happening in the world is an added bonus because it confirms what we understand from the scriptures such as:  " lift up your heads when you see these things"......

When we see what Jehovah predicted happening in real time we have additional reason to rejoice apart from having the regular gratitude and joy for " knowing" him.

We can fail in our interpretation of “prediction”. The “added bonus” is Satan’s display of deceit.  If we believe Satan cannot deceive on such a large level, we are ignorant to his deceptions.  1 Pet 5:8; Eph 6:11,12; 2 Cor 11:13-15

If Jesus’ kingdom is “no part of this world” why would we look to Satan’s kingdoms for the signs of God’s Kingdom to arrive?

^“ Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; ²¹ nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

²² Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. ²³ And they will say to you,  ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. ²⁴ For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.   Luke 17:20-24

“does not come with observation” -  αρατήρησις, in such a manner that it can be watched with the eyes, i. e. in a visible manner

So, those who have a great following, encourage their adherents to look for observable signs in the earthly world, as evidence of the Kingdom to come.  The leaders are saying, “See here! See there! Look here!  Look there! 

We are warned not to go after them, not to fall for their dates that have failed, or must be twisted to fit a new prophetic understanding of them. I listened to some of Garret Losh’s speech to the Gilead graduates, where he listed a large number of failed prophetic dates for Armageddon, announced by people over the ages – one failed date per person.   He then touched on the failed time table of the organization’s leaders, of which many, he didn’t reveal.  Your leaders have been consistent in failing at observing the physical signs, to prove the coming of the Kingdom of God. Losh’s ploy of stating the long listing of failed prophesies before touching on WT’s failed predictions, was to minimize the mistakes by WT; as if to say, “see, we have committed less blunders than what you have just heard”. 

Jesus said it would come in the symbolic form of lightening flashing “under heaven”.  If the signs are not “observable” this isn’t speaking of literal lightning to be literally seen.  We know that lightning, rain, hail, snow in the Bible can have a symbolic tie with words, knowledge, blessings, judgment, condemnation. God and Christ use faithful servants to speak these words “at the proper time”.  (Job 37:3,11,12; 38:34,35; Rev 4:5; 5:6;

This sign of lighting, flashes of light meaning the revealing of spiritual understanding, is not sourced in anointed who still set their eyes on observable signs in the world. The world’s signs are steeped in Satan’s darkness, the sign of the coming of Christ, is the opening of Revelation scrolls and knowledge of what they mean.

“Those who have insight will shine like the bright expanse of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.”

"Many will be purified, cleansed, and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.”

Dan 12:8,9; Rev 10:7; Amos 3:7;Rev 5:1,2,5,7,9,10; 1:1-3; 2:7,17,28; 1 Pet 1:19

Men who continually focus on the world’s actions, failing consistently in their effort to relate it to Christ’ arrival, should prove to us that light – understanding –is not sourced in Satan’s world. It only shows the darkness and foolishness that resides in their hearts.   Rom 1:18-22

^“ But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, evil men who push away the truth from them. ¹⁹ For the truth about God is known to them instinctively; God has put this knowledge in their hearts. ²⁰ Since earliest times men have seen the earth and sky and all God made, and have known of his existence and great eternal power. So they will have no excuse when they stand before God at Judgment Day.

²¹ Yes, they knew about him all right, but they wouldn’t admit it or worship him or even thank him for all his daily care. And after a while they began to think up silly ideas of what God was like and what he wanted them to do. The result was that their foolish minds became dark and confused. ²² Claiming themselves to be wise without God, they became utter fools instead.”  Rom 1:18-22 LB

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arauna]

52 minutes ago, Witness said:

Satan’s display of deceit.  If we

Satan will not be able to deceive those who stay close to jehovah and read the scriptures in an undertone day and night.

There are many indications in the bible that we will be able to discern signs I.e. when the  image of the beast  receives power, when they call "peace and security" and many more. I watch world events to see if the UN are getting into position to do these actions. 

52 minutes ago, Witness said:

why would we look to Satan’s kingdoms for the signs of

Yes indeed! Why did jehovah give prophecies about beasts which represented Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, anglo- American world powers.......UN or coalition of nations  (image of the beast) and eighth kingdom? So we do not have to read these prophecies at all and ignore them and sit online separated from Jehovahs people and believe ourselves to be holy.  We should  never watch the news but go online and  mislead others with our weak understanding of what is going on around us.  God expects us to be vigilant - not foolish.

Daniel would not have discerned the end of the 70 years and expected a change in rulership if he did not read the scriptures, make calculations and watched for signs..  ... in satans world.....of fulfillment.  

And jesus' disciples would not have discerned the "disgusting thing" in the holy place.....when Rome (part of Satan's world)  came the first time  and  then a second time.  They would have ignored the first attack of Rome and said "we are not to look for signs"  .....they would have ignored the events of wars and acts of terror around them, earthquakes, etc.  and waited till God sent a thunderbolt from heaven to warn them. .... that this first Roman attack was the "sign". .... 

 

"Sign of lightning"

The Jews did not accept jesus as the messiah but would go running after false christs..... because they were expecting an earthly kingdom with an earthly visible king. Jesus went on to explain to them that he - the future king is already  in their midst .

As sure as lightning is visible from east to west , they would fully understand when the kingdom is present/perousia. Matthew refers to the end of the Jewish system and has greater application in time of end as it speaks of the greatest tribulation the world has ever seen, the preaching in entire world, a slave that would feed the domestics etc.

 Just as we discern when a fruitree is flowering and is a sign that the fruits would soon appear - we can discern when conditions are changing to bring forth conditions leading to the situation called Armageddon.

[Kosonen]

@Arauna 

Many churches are preaching a such message as did apostle Paul.

Acts17:30 True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance;+ but now he is declaring to all people everywhere that they should repent. 31  Because he has set a day on which he purposes to judge+ the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has provided a guarantee to all men by resurrecting him from the dead.”

So when the sign of the Son of Man appears on the sky people will know that it is Jesus comming. 

So it seems that also churches of so called Christendom are fulfilling Matthew 24:14. And the wheat and the weeds should remain mixed until the end. So Jehovah's witnesses should not be so sure about their leadership. Better would be to "make sure of all things" as we all tried to do before baptism.

[TrueTomHarley]

22 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

Many churches are preaching a such message as did apostle Paul.

They are not.

[Kosonen]

44 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

They are not.

I see often here in Sweden where I live other churches preaching and handing out their tracts and books. They use to have a big sign that reads 'Believe in Jesus' and they invite to their church where you can hear more. They preach that Jesus will return. That is a very essential thing the world should know.

In China churches are also active and Jesus gets publicity. And now thanks to persecution Jesus' name is spread through that to international news sites. 

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/china-just-escalated-their-brutal-persecution-christians-entirely-new-level

[TrueTomHarley]

4 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

I see often here in Sweden where I live other churches preaching and handing out their tracts and books. They use to have a big sign that reads 'Believe in Jesus'

Go there. If that’s all it takes for you, go there. 

If you discern no difference whatsoever in how Jehovah’s Witnesses and those churches present Jesus, then you should go there. It’s easier, if for no other reason than you (usually) will not need to dress up.

I am assuming that you are up-to-speed on the threads here and haven’t just wandered in off the street with no background knowledge. Should the latter be the case, try the online Bible studies on the home page of JW.org, where you will find basic understandings of Jesus, what he represented, and what he taught, that are poles apart from what may be found in the churches.

There is a huge difference. But if, after having worked through those study sessions, you don’t agree, then pick the church with the biggest sign—sometimes they play cool music—and go there.

 

[Kosonen]

@TrueTomHarley There is one thing the world should know that Jesus will return to judge the world and that he has died for our sins. So it is good that all the Chinese get to know it when there are so few JWs. So logically other churches fulfill a purpose despite differences in how they understand scriptures. The same with WT. There are tens of doctines that are falls. But all churches including WT have futhered the spreading of God's word the Bible and at least som basic knowledge about Jesus. As Jesus said weeds mixed with wheat.

But I will not join any church. I can not stand false teachings. I would prefer if people would listen to what I teach based on God's word.