If the CCJW is to be God's / Christ's 'chosen organisation' what serious changes need to take pace within it.

[TrueTomHarley]

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I have reflected upon your words ever since you first wrote them. You could not have said it better. They have judged without mercy. They will have their judgment without mercy.

And don’t get me going on how I read his interactions with JWI:

“Dear JWI: I want to point out that you are wrong, but the trouble is—I don’t really know anything. Please supply some facts so I can tell you how wrong you are about them.” 

And JWI, with unlimited patience that is always hurled back in his face, obliges! 

Or maybe he is just like me—he wants to say what he wants to say, and he is not fussy as to what provides the pretext to say it.

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Caricatures

At least you will never hear the cry from heaven—‘nobody here but us chickens.’

[Leander H. McNelly]

14 hours ago, Witness said:

For whose name sake?

Are they willing to be disfellowshipped by their organization?  The Bible speaks of such an event, about a Harlot spiritually "killed" by the organization "she" directs.  

Rev 13:11,12,15; 17:15-17,12,14

I don’t understand what you mean by this, “For whose name sake”.

1.       Do you not know the psalmist?

2.       Do you believe Jesus died for his own sake?

3.       Does Jesus need to be sacrificed once again?

Jesus sacrifice was to correct, eternal damnation (certain death-sin) but, then a promise was placed before man to have a second change of internal life (everlasting). We don’t need Christ spiritually sacrificed in order for man to understand. We don’t need Christ to physically return to earth again to explain what the will of his father, was and still is. That’s what scripture is there for.

Jesus defied the Pharisees representation of the Jewish law, he was killed for it. Did Jesus defy God or man?

A Christian fellow would already know the answer.

 

You must be confused, if you think you can apply revelation 13:11-15. Are you saying, witnesses are actively worshiping the GB?

Do you have “proof” that is happening? I mean real tangible proof, none of this nonsense driven by ex-witnesses and opposers. This would be new light to me. Hard facts that a witness has kneeled and bow down before a GB member. Don’t just create an image like many opposers have done in the past by subverting an image, but genuine images that can be verified. In other words, NO FAKE STUFF!

Also, what is the name of this G-d you accuse the Witnesses of worshiping? Don’t say the GB, that’s a supposition of a group. That would be as if you are saying G-d and Christ are one and the same person (Trinity). God has a specific name, the son has a specific name. What is the name of this Watchtower G-d, which I have not heard since 1950 or known since 1879?

Therefore, rethink the rest of revelation.

[Witness]

@Leander H. McNelly, I'm just curious, what’s with the  “G-d”, Allen? You cannot say “God”, but you can say man’s invention of YHVH as “Jehovah”? 

But, that’s beside the point.  You remarked that the GB are willing to die “for his name’s sake”.  No. They are not.  Do you not remember that G. Losh stated that soon, 'before Armageddon arrives', the “faithful and discreet slave”  will be taken to heaven to reign with Christ?  They don't believe they will die for Jesus Christ.  They believe they already "reign" with him.  

Those who are willing to “die” for Jesus Christ have already done so at the hands of the dual power within your organization.  The anointed and any who turn to Jesus Christ, as the Head of the anointed Body, (instead of your GB) are spiritually “killed” through disfellowshipping.   Rom 8:33  Whenever someone rejects the headship of your GB, they are either shunned or disfellowshipped which really has the same result:

⁵² From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. ⁵³ They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”  Luke 12:52,53

 No, I don’t believe the GB is “God”, but worship does not always require bending down on one’s knees.  We can idolize a person or a thing by submitting ourselves as “slaves” to them.  Now, if a person tells the elder body that they will listen only to Jesus Christ and not the GB, that person previously enslaved to men and the organization is cut down…”thrown out of the synagogue”.  John 16:2; Eph 4:25;5:11; Rev 13:15

Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?  Rom 6:16

Yes, Rev 13:11 is your GB.  Rev 13:1,2 is your organization.

41 minutes ago, Leander H. McNelly said:

Jesus defied the Pharisees representation of the Jewish law, he was killed for it. Did Jesus defy God or man?

That’s a really good question.  Perhaps you should ask yourself why anyone who desires to serve only  Jesus Christ and the Father are, by the organization rules, judged as “dead” by mere men?  It is what to be expected in these last days, when following Jesus Christ.  Rev 11:7; 13:15; Rev 6:9-11

So if, through your faith in Christ, you are dead to the principles of this world’s life, why, as if you were still part and parcel of this world-wide system, do you take the slightest notice of these purely human prohibitions—“Don’t touch this,” “Don’t taste that” and “Don’t handle the other”? “This”, “that” and “the other” will all pass away after use! I know that these regulations look wise with their self-inspired efforts at worship, their policy of self-humbling, and their studied neglect of the body. But in actual practice they do honour, not to God, but to man’s own pride. Col 2:20-23

2 Tim 4:3; 1 Tim 4:1; Rev 16:14,13,15,16

 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Oh how these followers of MEN are showing their hurt and pain at being exposed. 

Dear TTH is trying so hard to put me to shame, and for what ?  Asking someone's opinion on matters. 

Where as what does TTH offer in spiritual thoughts and words ?  

To quote TTH " The very idea is so preposterous—a true anointed to appear out of who-knows-where at the final moments of this system of things, with just enough time for the true sheep of the earth to recognize, grab hold of them, and thereby save themselves at the final day. It’s just too ridiculous. "

Firstly I never said 'at the final moments of this system of things'. I said that 'in my opinion' it would be another 10 years before Judgement Day, and the true Anointed would be known long before that. As for 'the true sheep of the earth' that is the expression of TTH not me. And as for thereby save themselves, um, I always thought it was God through Christ, that did the 'saving' not the people saving themselves. 

My feelings are that TTH thinks all miracles are just too ridiculous. to actually believe. Showing a complete lack of faith. 

As for LHMcN I think he needs to re-read scripture about worshipping. 

Quote "Are you saying, witnesses are actively worshiping the GB?' 

Yes they are worshipping the GB and the writing dept and JW Org. JWs have been worshipping the Organisation since it's birth. The early 1970's was proof positive of such. When GOD'S WRITTEN WORD makes it so clear that humans will not know the day or the hour, BUT an Organisation's leaders tells its congregants that  Armageddon will be in the early to mid 1970's, and so those congregants obey the instruction of their leaders against the instructions of GOD'S WORD, then those congregants are worshipping the leaders of that Organisation. 

Further more the name Jehovah seems to be less relevant now to that Org as the JW Org logo seems to take precedence.

[Leander H. McNelly]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

But, that’s beside the point.  You remarked that the GB are willing to die “for his name’s sake”.  No. They are not.  Do you not remember that G. Losh stated that soon, 'before Armageddon arrives', the “faithful and discreet slave”  will be taken to heaven to reign with Christ?  They don't believe they will die for Jesus Christ.  They believe they already "reign" with him.  

Do you understand the concept between, now and then? How does one achieve "rapture" Do you not understand that even then, if an anointed is still standing, what needs to happen first. A Christian fellow would understand.

 

 

[Leander H. McNelly]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

That’s a really good question.  Perhaps you should ask yourself why anyone who desires to serve only  Jesus Christ and the Father are, by the organization rules, judged as “dead” by mere men?  It is what to be expected in these last days, when following Jesus Christ.  Rev 11:7; 13:15; Rev 6:9-11

I think you need to rethink your entire stance. Once again, Which G-d is the Watchtower members worshiping? Don't change the subject when you can't answer a simple question.

Then you will understand, the GB are not judging but applying Bible Principle to the christian congregation. No amount of your opposition will change the actions taken by faithful servants of God.

[Leander H. McNelly]

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

As for LHMcN I think he needs to re-read scripture about worshipping. 

Quote "Are you saying, witnesses are actively worshiping the GB?' 

Yes they are worshipping the GB and the writing dept and JW Org. JWs have been worshipping the Organisation since it's birth. The early 1970's was proof positive of such. When GOD'S WRITTEN WORD makes it so clear that humans will not know the day or the hour, BUT an Organisation's leaders tells its congregants that  Armageddon will be in the early to mid 1970's, and so those congregants obey the instruction of their leaders against the instructions of GOD'S WORD, then those congregants are worshipping the leaders of that Organisation. 

Perhaps it's you that needs to reread scripture and understand it in the spirit it was meant to be understood with its proper context. Scripture states, man will not know the "DAY" nor the "HOUR", it also says to be ever vigilant to approaching signs. The GB doesn't need to know the day nor the hour, but they do need to stay vigilant current noticeable signs just like any witness should.

The same problem Jews had with the AD70 destruction of the temple.

Therefore, your proposition of witnesses worshiping the GB is the most "false" statement made here by disgruntled ex-witnesses.

[TrueTomHarley]

On 3/1/2020 at 10:49 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Like any nation, they have to fight the good fight with the Army they have ... not the Army they WISH they had.

Another sage statement from JTR—he is firing hot lately, I can hardly believe it—is the above.

Yes. We want our people to be Rhodes Scholars who never misjudge, who easily hold their own among the brightest the university has to offer, and whose every utterance sweeps you away for its sheer brilliance.

What we get is a bunch of yahoos who make all the blunders that yahoos have always made. We should not run from this. We should embrace it. It is because Christians are derived from—the very ones taking the lead were—‘uneducated and ordinary.’ (Acts 4:13) They always remained so, by the standards of greater society.

We should embrace it because that is what God favors—“the uneducated and ordinary.” In the brilliant book ‘Tom Irregardless and Me’ (which, brilliant though it is, cannot touch ‘No Greater Love—How My Family Survived Genocide in Ryanda’) I wrote of how the great ideas of this world’s thinkers

“all sounded good – heaven knows one can spin college degrees from them. But when put to the test – when placed under stress – they don’t work.

One might suppose that the architect of ideas that don’t work would be discredited. Bizarrely, the ‘doesn’t work’ caveat doesn’t matter. It is just the fine print at document’s end which nobody reads....Surely it is the fault of the little people below and not the great idea!’....It is that way with the bedrock ideas upon which this world is constructed. Despite being lauded to high heaven, they don’t work. Those who have earned university degrees in them do not sacrifice any prestige on that account. Instead, they go on to master other ideas that don’t work.

God laughs at the wisdom of this world, and in the passage above we see why. He says: 

“There is a generation that is pure in its own eyes, but has not been cleansed from its filth.” (Proverbs 30:12) Tell them: “Show us the just world that has resulted from your brilliance, and then maybe we can talk.”

So we ought not run from our ordinariness. We should embrace it. When Celsus ridicules 2nd century Christians for being “labourers, shoemakers, farmers, the most uninformed and clownish of men,” don’t run away from that quote. Don’t try to mitigate it (as do most Christian apologists). Instead, say: “You don’t know the half of it!”

A frequent trait of all my writing—which is not appreciated by all Witnesses—is to give away many a fault, particularly faults that make some look ridiculous, as when Tom Irregardless rattles on for ten minutes in that instruction talk about a woman’s ‘ministerial cycle’ because he has forgotten the word ‘menstrual.’ He recalls only cruder terms that he knows would not be suitable for the platform. (This really happened.) There is a joke about the sister who collected $6000 dollars by selling eggs every time her husband gave a bad talk—and brothers collapse upon themselves telling that joke—yet no one will tell it within 300 yards of Tom Irregardless because with him it is no joke—it is reality. You risk hurting his feelings, “Why would anybody ever take that risk? In all your days you will never find a more caring, generous person than Tom Irregardless. If you need help he is there. You can pop in at the Irregardless home anytime; they are delighted to see you. They don’t wonder why you didn’t call first. Tom is an excellent man through and through, but only in Jehovah’s organization would he be a public instructor.”

[Actually, this is not nearly so true as it once was, since in recent years there has been more emphasis on speaker quality and less opportunity for them to mess up]

The point is not to humiliate people. The point is to glorify God. When great things are accomplished and the workers themselves are great, you can say that was the reason. But when great things are accomplished and the workers are yo-yos, the glory goes to God. So not only do I not hide embarrassing things—I highlight and even exaggerate them—always with 2 Corinthians 12:9 in mind: 

“But he [God] said to me [Paul]: “My undeserved kindness is sufficient for you, for my power is being made perfect in weakness.” Most gladly, then, I will boast about my weaknesses...”

I can now come to the main point of this comment, knowing that 4J will have stopped reading long ago and is now working up a retort about my being “long-winded yet saying nothing.” The brothers should have followed this strategy of admitting faults with regard to CSA as well. Rather than hope for the perception that CSA could never ever occur among a people devoted to God, they should have said: “Oh, yeah—tell us about it—we’ve had some of those slime balls, too, and let me tell you they are tough to deal with!” It would have all been good. We would not be having opposers who now carry on as though with the mission statement:

“CSA among JWs is very very serious and must be exposed! CSA among the 99.9% that is everywhere else? Stuff happens—what do we care?”

It would have been better if no one had ever thought it necessary to write that May 2019 article pointing out that the reproach of CSA falls on the abuser and not on the congregation. It’s a great article, and timely, but it would have been better if nobody had ever thought it necessesary.

When I used to be a bad boy and interacted with the malcontents, I would point out that the CSA is not prolific among JWs. They (the more reasonable ones) would respond with: “Oh, so now you are saying that you have the same problems as everyone else!” They accepted my premise, that we do abhor it and it is not prolific—it was the perception of self-righteousness that got them incensed. It would have been better to have given no cause for that perception, and it would be nice if it is a lesson internalized for future guidance.

It is very very difficult to be the required “no part of the world” and not be perceived as self-righteous, because the world automatically takes offense at non-participation. “If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own,” says Jesus. “Now because you are no part of the world, the world hates you.” Still, I think we do unnecessarily bring trouble upon ourselves sometimes, and the above is a prime example.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

People can be incensed WITHOUT being self righteous.

They can be incensed because they hunger for righteousness.

[Leander H. McNelly]

Either way JTR, you lose by being "incensed". Christ didn't teach it, nor does God accept it. That's a human frailty that needs to change once baptized. If not, what's the point in wanting to be Christian if obedience is not is one's heart. Baptism is a direct pledge to God.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

"There is a generation that is pure in its own eyes, but has not been cleansed from its filth.” 

Thanks @TrueTomHarley that fits your GB and CCJW very well.

I did read it all as you knew I would, and I laughed all through it. Thank you for giving me something to laugh at. 

As I've mentioned before though, it seems your only purpose for being on this forum is to promote your own writings/books. I see that as selfish but you probably see it as opportunity. 

If Australia (CCJW) started recording CSA accusations over 50 years ago then America being the starting point of the religion, would surely have started recording CSA before that. So the leaders, even prior to there being a GB, would have known about the problem. Besides which, if the CCJW was in any way inspired by God, they would have been well prepared to sort it out when it first started. If God gave the Nation of Israel guidelines, why would he not give His so called 'chosen organisation' guidelines ? 

And of course TTH deliberately fails to mention that, in the 1st century, Christians WERE INSPIRED OF GOD. Hence 1st century Christians were given guidance by God's Holy Spirit. THEY DID NOT DO IMPORTANT THINGS, OF THEIR OWN ABILITY. 

Whereas the leaders of CCJW, the GB, are NOT inspired of GOD, so are not capable of doing important things, such as guiding God's people. 

And as TTH seems to like going on about CSA. One more important point is this. IT IS NOT ONLY THE CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE ITSELF, THAT IS THE CRIME AND SIN, BUT IT IS THE HIDING OF PAEDOPHILES IN THE CONGREGATIONS, AND KEEPING SECRET THE INFORMATION OF SEXUAL ABUSE, THE TELLING LIES, THE REFUSING TO COOPERATE WITH THE 'SUPERIOR AUTHORITIES' (who are set in place by God), THE DESTRUCTION OF HARD COPY PAPERWORK, AND THE ATTITUDE OF THE GB AND OTHERS IN 'AUTHORITY' WITHIN THE CCJW. 

ONE PAEDOPHILE IN ONE CONGREGATION CAN ABUSE 5 OR 10, OR 20 CHILDREN OVER A NUMBER OF YEARS. 

So TTH, it's not the number of paedophiles in CCJW that is the only issue.