Paradise… Will it come?

[Witness]

3 hours ago, BroRando said:

You can't have it both ways talking that Gog of Magog will not be destroyed. 

Can you tell my where I said Gog of Magog will not be destroyed?  I did say this:

Yes, Gog of Magog is destroyed, but he was allowed to attack Israel because of their sin, and as the scriptures say, it happens again “in future days”. 

You can find it here:

 

The authentic Gog of/and Magog, which are the two Beasts of Revelation 13, are thrown into the lake of fire.  Rev 14:9-11

Watchtower's counterfeit Gog "of" Magog, a "coalition of nations" in Satan's realm, will be gone in the Kingdom, because Satan's worldly kingdom will have ended. He is the author of death, and death will be destroyed.  1 Cor 15:26

[Witness]

5 hours ago, BroRando said:

The sword is outside, and the pestilence and the famine are inside. Whoever is in the field will die by the sword, and famine and pestilence will consume those in the city.

If you go back to Ezekiel 7 and read from the beginning, you will see who receives the message.  It wasn't to the nations of the world, it was to Israel, God's people under covenant.   Scripture is consistent - who is "Israel" today?

[Chioke Lin]

It seems that some of us might think the passage of Ezekiel 38 means literal Israel, like the nations of Israel thinks of it today.

Israel forfeited the right to have God’s favor, so why the contradiction, if people think this is what the bible means in the passages in the book of Revelation?

 

Coalition of nations

2. During the invasion (38:14-39:8)

We're tempted to speculate on how the European leader responded to this remark-able series of events. No sooner did he guarantee his protection to Israel than a coalition of nations invaded Palestine and he couldn't do anything about it. Perhaps he said that the "forces of nature" were under his control! At least the Jews could build their temple without interference from the neighboring nations. The Lord will give Antichrist what he wants, but in the end, it will all combine to lead to his destruction. (by Warren W. Wiersbe. All rights reserved.)

It does seem to indicate, whatever the coalition of nations sought in Ezekiel, the same coalition of nations will make an attempt to invade the spiritual nation of Israel. The same impression, other religious thinkers, write about.

The good thing is, it’s not defined by just one organization.

[BroRando]

10 minutes ago, Peter Carroll said:

they both seem to believe they are right but as there are may differances in what they believe ,they cannot both be right

Ezekiel 38:4

I will turn you around and put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed in splendor, a vast assembly with large shields and bucklers, all of them wielding swords;

EZEKIEL 38:18

FOCUS: Gog’s attack provokes Jehovah’s anger; Jehovah defends his people during the war of Armageddon

“My Great Rage Will Flare Up”

[Pudgy]

…

 

[Chioke Lin]

13 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

the point is one is right and one is wrong and you cannot sit on the fence for to long ,you will eventually fall into one or the other

In some aspects of the proof they are offering commentator, both are pretty far off left field. So, two wrongs don't make a right for the bible.

We can say, one is close while the other isn't. I do agree, a good decision can be found by correct understanding of the bible.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

12 minutes ago, Chioke Lin said:

a good decision can be found by correct understanding of the bible.

and who do you think has this 'correct understanding of the Bible' ? 

[Chioke Lin]

Those, God has given the insight to understand the bible. Those that can feed God's sheep without putting their own spin on the bible. 

How many Christian religions are out there that are being condemned for Christ teachings? I'm not talking about being condemned by what faults they have, but on doing what the bible describes as preaching the good news.

I see that condemnation here every day.

We can all have an understanding of the bible, some more than others. Who is adding to the words of the bible, have a difficult time readjusting themselves to stick to the bible when discussing it.

So, that right or wrong, can be for one or all of us. God, does separate us all, from those with bad intentions. Those that charge fault are the worst. 

But, like I said before, It's not about a person, but what the bible has to offer. We need to stick with what the bible says, not what a person says with a bible discussion. Personal opinions are irrelevant to that discussion.

[Chioke Lin]

1 hour ago, Peter Carroll said:

False teachers are like dried-up wells. Anyone coming to them for waters of truth will be bitterly disappointed.

This is very true commentator. That's why we need to be cautious on how we interact with others. Once again, 2 wrongs don't make a right. What is the best bible evidence. Throwing so many bible texts don't work, with a serious bible discussion. There is interpretation on top of interpretation to consider. In some cases, a text can be debated word for word. 

[Chioke Lin]

Let's take a look at a commentator's objection.

"If you go back to Ezekiel 7 and read from the beginning, you will see who receives the message.  It wasn't to the nations of the world, it was to Israel, God's people under covenant.   Scripture is consistent - who is "Israel" today?"

The beginning of the passage is referring to Israel. But it is also speaking to the kind of destruction humanity will have, come judgment day. Revelation.

Now, is the organization the only one of what the beginning of Ezekiel 7 is stating, The hour of doom?

 

The Hour of Doom: -- The events recorded in this chapter occurred in the fifty-first year of the captivity of the Jews. Let me ask you to consider the extreme minuteness of the prophecies with regard to Babylon, made one hundred and fifty years before they were accomplished. It was predicted (Isa 45:1) that Cyrus, the king of Persia, should be its conqueror; and this was fulfilled, for it was the Persian troops, commanded by Cyrus, who captured the city. It was predicted (Isa 44:27) that the river Euphrates should be dried up before the city was taken; and this was fulfilled when the soldiers of Cyrus, with incredible labour, diverted it from its course, and thus "laid a snare for Babylon." It was predicted (Isa 45:1) that, when the city was taken, its "gates should not be shut"; and this was fulfilled, for the historian records that had the gates leading from the river to the city been shut, the Persians would have been inclosed in a net, from which they could never have escaped. It was predicted (Jer 1: 24) that on the night of the capture the Babylonians would be given up to intemperance: "I have laid a snare for thee, and thou art also taken, O Babylon, and thou wast not aware thou art found and also caught" (Jer 51:57) -- "And I will make drunk her princes and her wise men, her captains and her rulers, and her mighty men; and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake"; and this was fulfilled, for Cyrus selected the occasion of a great festival for entering the city; and Herodotus (as quoted by Dr. Keith) relates that the inhabitants were given up to revelling and dancing -- that the guards were drinking before the palace when the Persians rushed upon and slew them, and that the monarch and the princes and the captains were slain at a feast.

(from The Biblical Illustrator.)

Here, we can see the word "faithful" was used to disguise a misstep in interpretation, rather than using the word, disobedience. A trick that is used to deflect.

III. succeed in his transcendent crime of founding the Second Empire in France, and thereafter he will despise the will of the people, in destroying the freedom of the press, and will hasten the hour of doom by all the surprising splendours and follies of the Imperial court at Compiegne. The Bible reiterates the lesson for all rulers, all governments, all individuals: that a limit of transgression has been fixed, beyond which judgment waits. Presumptuous sins, therefore, hasten the hour of judgment. (from The Biblical Illustrator.)

Here, the bible illustrator is referring to all the nations.

 

*** w58 11/1 p. 654 par. 40 Why the Divine Will International Assembly Resolved ***
40 We must do this. The handwriting has appeared on the walls of this Babylonish old world, announcing the doom of Satan’s entire world organization. Christendom, who has cast in her lot and destiny with this world, stands doomed with it, to suffer a destruction in comparison with which the horrors of Jerusalem’s destruction in Jeremiah’s day will seem pale. The lives of countless sheeplike persons in all quarters of the earth are imperiled as the great day of destruction draws nearer. Our work is not done. Our obligation is to drive ahead with this witness work till the destruction overtakes a heedless, goatish world. We are dedicated to do the divine will. So this is our work according to God’s will for now. This is the work for which we have been brought to this hour. For us there can be no turning aside, no deviating, no slowing down, no uncertainty, no inside interference with the work.
 

Here, we see the organization is talking about several components to God's judgment.

 

*** w52 5/1 p. 266 par. 3 Determining the Year by Fact and Bible ***
3 Of this termination of typical kingdom government in 607 B.C. the Bible records: “And you, you knave, O prince of Israel to be slain, for whom the hour of sin’s full punishment brings doom—‘Off with his diadem, away with his crown!’ says the Lord the Eternal [Jehovah, AS]; ‘turn things upside down, up with the low, down with the high! I lay all in ruins, ruins, ruins; everything shall be overturned, till the rightful man arrives—and I will give him everything.’” (Ezek. 21:25-27, Mo) Observe that this pronouncement shows the legal right of the crown is to lapse for a long time “till the rightful man arrives”. When that “son of man” arrives it implies there will be a restoration of divine, sovereign-empowered government, but this time over the entire earth, as it says, “I will give him everything.”

Here the organization is talking about the second part of Ezekiel 7 passage. The desolation of Israel. So, instead of confusing the issues, why not have a civil discussion about at least what Ezekiel 7 interpretation is.
 

 

[Chioke Lin]

3 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

“There Will . . . Be False Teachers Among You”

“Be on the watch,” cautioned Jesus, “for the false prophets that come to you in sheep’s covering.” (Matt. 7:15) Jesus knew that Satan would try to divide and corrupt His followers. So from early in his ministry, he warned them about false teachers.

This seems to be the same concern the other side has. 

3 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

yes some with true biblical insight will have the ability to discuss any aspect of the bible ,but some commentators do not have this ability in this open forum

How can that concern be answered by way of the bible without it being personal? A minster of Christ should be aware of that also. 

Why not focus on the interpretation of Ezekiel 7? Then we can get to Ezekiel 38, and Revelation 20, step by step.

[Chioke Lin]

That is a good start. Remember, you are dealing with an aggressive opponent that doesn't believe a word you say. It should also be noted, their words cannot be trusted, since, as you have mentioned, they lack the spirit of God. Their interest is to teardown the house of spiritual Israel.

Ezekiel 7 has two parts in its context. The hour of doom, 1-13, and the desolation of Israel, 14-27. The opponent commentators have clouded those two components. How do you prove they are wrong with understanding the bible's interpretation? Remember, they don't care about what is written in the organization. In some Bibles interpretation, the context in 14-27 means Idolaters condemned, and 1-13, means Ezekiel's Inaugural vision.

How do you defend what has been clouded by interpretation?