Hundreds of child abuse payments held up

[JW Insider]

4 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

So they have a more balanced viewpoint.

"They" is a very wide ranged group, if you are talking about all ex-JWs. But it's not likely true that an ex-JW will automatically have a more balanced view. Something could have driven them to leave the JWs, or perhaps they just drifted away, or perhaps something they did resulted in their being identified as no longer associated. In any case I can see the strong possibility of the ex-JW being angry about being "forced" into a situation he or she may not have wanted. I think that's a much stronger motive for a lack of a balanced view. And even if not, I have seem exJWs with terribly unbalanced views. I believe you yourself have admitted to some unbalanced views such as not trusting anyone, not even your wife.

[JW Insider]

6 minutes ago, Anna said:

From 4jah's previous comments elsewhere he implies that the majority of the abuse is committed by elders.

I get the impression that other ex-JWs, too, would like to give the impression that the majority of abuse is committed by elders (Mark O'Donnell, for example) even if they know better. It's an unbalanced view.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Without HARD DATA ..... there is no way we will EVER know.

[Anna]

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Leadership position? But JW members would say: We don't have human leaders, because our Leader is One, Jesus. :)) If JWorg has no leaders than no single leadership position is available for any of member. 

We are getting tied up in semantics here. There is always going to be someone "put in charge" of a group who have some assignment to do. Did you never get put in groups at school, perhaps a sports team, with a "captain" ? There is nothing sinister about that, just makes practical sense. Also, in the JW arrangement, someone taking the lead is to lead mainly by example. JW 'leadership" roles are modeled on the first century Christian "leadership" roles. The apostle Paul designated brothers to take the lead in various assignments.....and of course the elder arrangement is Biblical also. 

Hebrews 13:7, Acts 6:3, Acts 14:12, Romans 12:8...etc..

 

[TrueTomHarley]

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It seems that only just over 10 percent of the abusers in that list were Elders or MS..... I believe this is true, although I'm not sure what it proves.

What it proves is that the CSA story of JW abusers is a relative nothingburger when compared to the CSA story of almost anyone else, where the abusers reported are 100% clergy, and where the abuse rate of ‘parishioners’ is unknown because those groups didn’t care enough about protecting children to look into it.

It also proves that when Drudge runs a story of ‘Ten plagues that are hitting our planet simultaneously’ (today’s report),

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/10-plagues-that-are-hitting-our-planet-simultaneously

that 4Jah’s ‘true anointed‘ that has yet to manifest itself and save the day had better hurry up, because it’s getting a bit tight here.

It also proves that when you run reports of people tortured in Russia and 4Jah responds with a laughing emoji, Srecko a remark on how they ARE violating the law, so what do they expect, that it becomes clear how God can draw as with hooks in the jaws enemies inclined to war against those doing his will. Read the verses of Revelation 19 and wonder at the question—‘who would be so foolhardy to war against God and on what pretext’ We begin see the answer and methods unfolding.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Hmmmmmmm.... that brings up an interesting question ... for those angelic forces that war against God ... are there any mortal casualties on either side ... or is it just a big shoving match?

If two angels fight ... does one get killed and the other perhaps only seriously wounded?

It seems to me that the term "war" would result in massive casualties ( ... that means DEAD, for those in Rio Linda ...) on at least one side, and possibly BOTH sides ... otherwise it would not be a war at all.

Here is where I might insert a joke about them ripping each others' feathers out .... but I will refrain.

[Srecko Sostar]

9 hours ago, Anna said:

We are getting tied up in semantics here. There is always going to be someone "put in charge" of a group who have some assignment to do. Did you never get put in groups at school, perhaps a sports team, with a "captain" ? There is nothing sinister about that, just makes practical sense. Also, in the JW arrangement, someone taking the lead is to lead mainly by example. JW 'leadership" roles are modeled on the first century Christian "leadership" roles. The apostle Paul designated brothers to take the lead in various assignments.....and of course the elder arrangement is Biblical also. 

Hebrews 13:7, Acts 6:3, Acts 14:12, Romans 12:8...etc..

 

Of course, it is understandable. I made just comment on that in  this way to soften arguing about what sort, class of people made more bad deeds of CSA inside some institution, are they those individuals with more or less important position inside some structure.

At the end, it is of less important in whole this issue (do we have higher numbers of elders or ordinary members who made crime). Main question is how management  and members respond on such crime. What they doing when that happened?

Both group can "hide" this problem. But, as it is obviously clear, "those in position of leadership and who need to be role model" for other people inside institution bear greater responsibility and have to be "charged" more for doing and/or not doing.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What it proves is that the CSA story of JW abusers is a relative nothingburger when compared to the CSA story of almost anyone else, where the abusers reported are 100% clergy, and where the abuse rate of ‘parishioners’ is unknown because those groups didn’t care enough about protecting children to look into it.

It also proves that when Drudge runs a story of ‘Ten plagues that are hitting our planet simultaneously’ (today’s report),

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/10-plagues-that-are-hitting-our-planet-simultaneously

that 4Jah’s ‘true anointed‘ that has yet to manifest itself and save the day had better hurry up, because it’s getting a bit tight here.

It also proves that when you run reports of people tortured in Russia and 4Jah responds with a laughing emoji, Srecko a remark on how they ARE violating the law, so what do they expect, that it becomes clear how God can draw as with hooks in the jaws enemies inclined to war against those doing his will. Read the verses of Revelation 19 and wonder at the question—‘who would be so foolhardy to war against God and on what pretext’ We begin see the answer and methods unfolding.

Well it shows Tom's view of the victims of CSA in JW Org.  "a relative nothingburger".

And poor old tom is still trying to twist things for his own advantage. Where is you honesty @TrueTomHarley ?

Where is you truthfulness ? Where is you love and mercy ?  Where is your true service to Almighty God ? 

Oh how you show your true colours, but then Christ knows your true intentions of the heart anyway. 

Quote @JW Insider " But it's not likely true that an ex-JW will automatically have a more balanced view. "

Prejudiced or what ? And then you go on to list your reasons that Ex-JWs are not balanced  .

So be it, but Ex-JWs are not under the pressure that JWs are under from the Elders, Circuit Over seers et al.

Now going back to the CSA, one of my points has always been not only who committed the dreadful crime of abuse, but also THOSE THAT COVERED IT UP.  

 

 

 

 

 

[JW Insider]

17 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Just as a point of reference. That ARC leaked data sheet cannot be independently confirmed it was not altered by the people that leaked it. It was automatically assumed an ARC member leaked it.

This could easily be true. It's also possible that a JW in good standing at the Australian Branch leaked it. It's also possible that it was cleaned up to make it look like many fewer Elders and MS were involved. Some things seem very unlikely to us because we all have preconceived ideas about what such data would look like.

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What it proves is that the CSA story of JW abusers is a relative nothingburger when compared to the CSA story of almost anyone else, where the abusers reported are 100% clergy, and where the abuse rate of ‘parishioners’ is unknown because those groups didn’t care enough about protecting children to look into it.

I responded when I saw this because the word "proof" and "proves" were being used. This is evidence, not proof. I think that JTR recognized this when he said we needed "hard data." None of us collected the evidence. None of us produced the spreadsheet. I'm confident that this is good evidence, but that doesn't make it proof.

For example, we don't know but that perhaps all Elders and MS were supposed to have been mostly removed from that sheet before it was handed over. This seems unlikely, but things like this have happened. Statistics are often manipulated. On a much more minor topic I gave my own experience where I was "in the room where it happened" as one particular statistic was changed so that the WTS appeared to have a better report than it actually got when the statistic was announced. 

Also, TTH, the abusers reported were not 100% clergy in all the other reports given over to the ARC. In fact, some of the commentary about other entities run by churches, but not by clergy were part of the investigation.

Outside of the ARC, I have only followed a few cases haphazardly, but I saw several reports where I could tell they were not just including "clergy." The Southern Baptist cases, for example, included many church volunteers along with clergy. Wikipedia says:

On February 10, 2019, the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express-News published an investigative report into widespread sexual abuse within member churches of the Southern Baptist Convention. The report found since 1998, roughly 380 clergy, lay leaders and volunteers had faced allegations of sexual misconduct, leaving behind over 700 victims.^[1]

[Anna]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

"proof" and "proves" were being used. This is evidence, not proof.

Thanks for drawing my attention to that. I must remember to use the word evidence rather than proof. "Evidence" is a lot more forgiving 😃

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

But because you are all 'physical people' not 'spiritual people' you still all see it as a nothingburger as Mr Harley puts it. 

People have been 'killed' spiritually by being stumbled either by being abused, being a relative of the one abused, being disfellowshipped because of complaining of abuse, being shunned for complaining of abuse, but it's just a 'nothingburger' to you JWs, because you worship your GB and it's Org. 

Anna talks about legal rights. Tom dismisses it a a 'nothingburger'. 

It seems that none of you are seeing the spiritual wickedness (as well as physical wickedness) within JW Org. 

@JW Insider your comment comes closest to being balanced and showing what 'could have happened' from both sides. 

To quote "Some things seem very unlikely to us because we all have preconceived ideas about what such data would look like."  

I'm glad you can see that from both sides. But still it's just 'data' whereas the truth is it's REAL PEOPLE that have had their lives ruined. 

Anna says ""Evidence" is a lot more forgiving ". Um, evidence can be true or false. And in JW Org, using 'spiritual warfare', it is more likely to be false. 

[TrueTomHarley]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This is evidence, not proof.

Yes, of course I am using the word “prove” loosely. This is apparent by looking at the other two factors offered as “proof”—that concerning the Drudge item and that concerning the application of torture in Russia. Of course it is evidence, not proof.

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The report found since 1998, roughly 380 clergy, lay leaders and volunteers 

Nitpicking. “Persons given authority” I might have said. Average, ‘sit on your rear end’ parishioners—in other words, the vast majority—how many of them have been reported? That is what must be known if we are to suppose that the comparison with JWs is apples to apples.

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It's also possible that it was cleaned up to make it look like many fewer Elders and MS were involved. Some things seem very unlikely to us because we all have preconceived ideas about what such data would look like.

It seems unlikely to me because if the brothers are as underhanded as you suggest, why not clean all of them up? Of the first 5 elders and MS on the list, one was convicted—of which there will be a public record. Why not “clean the others up?”

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

responded when I saw this because the word "proof" and "proves" were being used.

In fact, nothing will be proven for anything until we shake down those carrying authority of every organization on earth, squeezing all their documents out of them, and assuming that if they have none, it is because they are covering up! Enough!

What IS proven is that the Boy Scout of America took me camping, taught me how to tie knots, did their best to help me grow up, and in recent days declared bankruptcy because, while they may have striven to get a handle on those who would abuse children, they were not perfect In this regard, some slipped through.. At the time I first wrote of a huge settlement against them, at the time the largest cash verdict for CSA involving a single individual, the Boy Scouts were reported as having a strong anti-CSA policy—which was used against them!

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2011/01/pedophiles-and-smear-campaigns.html

Look, just make it illegal for children and adults to be in proximity of each other! Outlaw it! Just think of how many children will be protected that way!