Jump to content

Diakonos

Why should such mistaken views not cast doubt on whether Jesus was guiding his followers?

Recommended Posts

I really didn't know whether to laugh, cry or throw my hands up in despair when we discussed this at last night's meeting. The answers that were given during these paragraphs and the response of the study conductor really showed to me how, as a general rule, we are such a non-thinking and illogical group of people.

 

5 As we saw in

    Hello guest!
of this book, the Bible Students spent decades pointing out that the year 1914 would be significant in fulfilling Bible prophecy. However, at that time they believed that Christ’s presence had begun in 1874, that he had begun to rule in heaven in 1878, and that the Kingdom would not be fully set up until October 1914. The harvest would extend from 1874 to 1914 and would culminate in the gathering of the anointed to heaven. Do mistaken ideas such as these cast doubt on whether Jesus was guiding those faithful ones by means of holy spirit?

6 Not at all! Think again of our opening illustration. Would the premature ideas and eager questions of the tourists cast doubt on the reliability of their guide? Hardly! Similarly, although God’s people sometimes try to work out details of Jehovah’s purpose before it is time for the holy spirit to guide them to such truths, it is clear that Jesus is leading them. Thus, faithful ones prove willing to be corrected and humbly adjust their views.

 

It is also upsetting that the governing body, in instances like this, always speak in the third person. How much more humble would it be for them to say ;

 

"Similarly, although we, the faithful and discreet slave sometimes try to work out details of Jehovah’s purpose before it is time for the holy spirit to guide us to such truths..."

 

Any comments ?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*** kr chap. 5 p. 49 pars. 1-3 The King Shines Light on the Kingdom ***

IMAGINE that an experienced guide is leading you on a tour of a wondrous and beautiful city. The city is new to you and to those with you, so you hang on to the guide’s every word. At times, you and your fellow tourists wonder excitedly about some of the city’s features that you have not yet seen. When you ask your guide about such things, however, he withholds his comments until key moments, often just when a certain sight is coming into view. In time, you grow ever more impressed with his wisdom, for he tells you what you need to know right when you need to know it.

2 True Christians are in a situation similar to that of the tourists. We are eagerly learning about the most wondrous of cities, “the city having real foundations,” the Kingdom of God. (Heb. 11:10) When Jesus was on earth, he personally guided his followers, leading them to a deeper knowledge of that Kingdom. Did he answer all their questions and tell them everything about that Kingdom at once? No. He said: “I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now.” (John 16:12) As the wisest of guides, Jesus never burdened his disciples with knowledge that they were not prepared to handle.

3 Jesus spoke the words recorded at John 16:12 on the final night of his earthly life. After his death, how would he continue to teach faithful people about God’s Kingdom? He assured his apostles: “The spirit of the truth . . . will guide you into all the truth.” (John 16:13) We may think of the holy spirit as a patient guide. The spirit is Jesus’ means of teaching his followers whatever they need to know about God’s Kingdom—right when they need to know it.

*** kr chap. 5 p. 50 The King Shines Light on the Kingdom *** Understanding a Pivotal Year

5 As we saw in Chapter 2 of this book, the Bible Students spent decades pointing out that the year 1914 would be significant in fulfilling Bible prophecy. However, at that time they believed that Christ’s presence had begun in 1874, that he had begun to rule in heaven in 1878, and that the Kingdom would not be fully set up until October 1914. The harvest would extend from 1874 to 1914 and would culminate in the gathering of the anointed to heaven. Do mistaken ideas such as these cast doubt on whether Jesus was guiding those faithful ones by means of holy spirit?

6 Not at all! Think again of our opening illustration. Would the premature ideas and eager questions of the tourists cast doubt on the reliability of their guide? Hardly! Similarly, although God’s people sometimes try to work out details of Jehovah’s purpose before it is time for the holy spirit to guide them to such truths, it is clear that Jesus is leading them. Thus, faithful ones prove willing to be corrected and humbly adjust their views.—Jas. 4:6.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This hardly answers the question Melinda does it ? The problem is, as Gerrit Loesch said in the November broadcast, is that the GB are still roving about !! If the slave can err in doctrinal matters and organizational policies, as stated in the February 2017 WT, we can never be certain from whom the teaching has come. Jesus or men ?

Jesus does not give out false information or wrong dates. Research what JF Rutherford said Bible students could confidently expect in 1925.

The GB have therefore been guilty of doing what the scriptures warn us against in 1 Cor 4:6

 

6 Now, brothers, these things I have applied to myself and A·polʹlos for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against the other.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The illustration of the tourists is not really analogous.

"IMAGINE that an experienced guide is leading you on a tour of a wondrous and beautiful city"

Jesus. Fine.

"Would the premature ideas and eager questions of the tourists cast doubt on the reliability of their guide? Hardly! Similarly, although God’s people sometimes try to work out details of Jehovah’s purpose before it is time for the holy spirit to guide them to such truths, it is clear that Jesus is leading them."

That's not quite how it's been in the Organization, though, has it? I suggest that it has been more like a scenario where some of the more dominant tourists start guiding the other tourists, loudly and authoritatively explaining details about the city's features that are a mishmash of fact and falsehood. The experienced guide is shaking his head, trying to speak above the few dominant tourists and waving the group back on track but they're all wandering off after the loud, 'knowledgeable' ones.

Eph. 4:14, 15.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/9/2016 at 1:34 AM, Diakonos said:

I really didn't know whether to laugh, cry or throw my hands up in despair when we discussed this at last night's meeting. The answers that were given during these paragraphs and the response of the study conductor really showed to me how, as a general rule, we are such a non-thinking and illogical group of people.

1874 - "Christ came in the character of a Bridegroom in 1874.... at the beginning of the Gospel harvest." (Watchtower, Oct 1879, p. 4)

This wasn’t presented as conjecture, but as fact. 

(1889) "Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty (Rev. 16:14) which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God's word."

Presented as fact, but notice - (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, The Time Is At Hand, 1889 Ed., p. 101. The 1915 Edition of this texts changed "A.D. 1914" to read 'A.D. 1915')

How many ‘facts’ make a wrong?

Here is a ‘fact’ that supports 1915 –

(1889) - "In the coming 26 years, all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved." (C.T. Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 98-99, 1889)  1889+26=1915

(1889) Again in the same year, 1914 re-emerges as the conclusion of the harvest:

"Remember that the forty years' Jewish Harvest ended October A.D. 69, and was followed by the complete overthrow of that nation; and that likewise the forty years of the Gospel age harvest will end October, 1914, and that likewise the overthrow of 'Christendom,' so-called, must be expected to immediately follow." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 245)

1902 - "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914." (The Time Is At Hand, 1902 edition, p. 99)

"Do mistaken ideas such as these cast doubt on whether Jesus was guiding those faithful ones by means of holy spirit?"

Christ is Truth.  “Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.  And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32

Certainly, the question should be asked, are these teachers Christ’s disciples? 

Or false prophets?

“And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. 

Similarly, although God’s people sometimes try to work out details of Jehovah’s purpose before it is time for the holy spirit to guide them to such truths, it is clear that Jesus is leading them.

No, rather, scripture shows clearly that Jesus is NOT leading them.

 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.

  And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’—  when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”  Deut 18:19-22

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/9/2016 at 1:34 AM, Diakonos said:

Do mistaken ideas such as these cast doubt on whether Jesus was guiding those faithful ones by means of holy spirit?

6 Not at all! Think again of our opening illustration. Would the premature ideas and eager questions of the tourists cast doubt on the reliability of their guide? Hardly! Similarly, although God’s people sometimes try to work out details of Jehovah’s purpose before it is time for the holy spirit to guide them to such truths, it is clear that Jesus is leading them.

Has God changed?   Would the decrees that are represented and fulfilled by his Son, change?  

The GB, genuine anointed ones, have stepped in as head over the anointed Body of Christ - God's priesthood.  God's entire sanctuary/ priesthood of anointed ones are to defend the Truth in Christ; if they waver from Truth, they "bear the iniquity" of defiled teachings to the congregations. 1 Pet 2:5-10; Num 18:1; Exod 28:38; Heb 13:15,16; Mal 2:7

On 12/9/2016 at 1:34 AM, Diakonos said:

It is also upsetting that the governing body, in instances like this, always speak in the third person. How much more humble would it be for them to say ; "Similarly, although we, the faithful and discreet slave sometimes try to work out details of Jehovah’s purpose before it is time for the holy spirit to guide us to such truths..."

"If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

" If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." 1 John 6:8-10

"I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran, I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied" Jer 23:15-32; Rev 8:11; Jude 1:11-13; 17:1-6; 1 Cor 4:7,8; Rev 13:11,14-17; 

    Hello guest!

"Where is the true religion?"  

    Hello guest!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/2/2017 at 4:32 PM, AllenSmith said:

their updated chronology that replaced 1874, with 2043

Oh really? I didn't know that. Kind of interesting since it could coincide with the theory of the overlapping  generation.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Scripture is never stopping to learn. We all do that daily. If anything F. Franz taught me, was never stop understanding scripture. That's the key to your personal salvation.

No argument there!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On December 9, 2016 at 4:34 AM, Diakonos said:

It is also upsetting that the governing body, in instances like this, always speak in the third person. How much more humble would it be for them to say ;

 

Usually it is considered bad form for an author of non-fiction to write in the first person. It is considered immodest.

 It is similar to why you don't say "in my opinion." OF COURSE it's in your opinion. You wrote it.

 

On December 9, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Ann O'Maly said:

 I suggest that it has been more like a scenario where some of the more dominant tourists start guiding the other tourists, loudly and authoritatively explaining details about the city's features that are a mishmash of fact and falsehood. The experienced guide is shaking his head, trying to speak above the few dominant tourists and waving the group back on track but they're all wandering off after the loud, 'knowledgeable' ones.

At this point one of the dominant tourists carjacks a steamroller and attempts to flatten the tour guide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On December 9, 2016 at 4:34 AM, Diakonos said:

the study conductor really showed to me how, as a general rule, we are such a non-thinking and illogical group of people.

 

I'll allow for this, to a degree. Furthermore, it is not a bad thing. It is in harmony with the first century GB being "uneducated and ordinary," not masters of critical argumentation.

While faith and logic need not be mutually exclusive, you should not expect to PROVE matters of faith by logic.

It ought to be clear that Jesus didn't give two hoots about argumentation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Similar Content

    • By Witness
      It’s 2 minutes long.  I suggest listening to it twice.  Notice the undertones of ridicule directed against the “auTHORity” of Jesus Christ.   See if you detect the exemplified authority of the GB, placed on the same level as God’s word.  And how Jesus was aware of his “limitations”, not having authority “to teach others things that originated in his own mind”.  But this man? He displays no humble attitude before God’s Son.   Even though the GB persists in fabricating deception originating from THEIR minds, you are made aware that they are above and beyond such limitations! 
      Honestly, JWs.  This is a man who told lies about the organization’s problem with child abuse. Now, he is blatantly exalting himself above Christ and his authority.  If any of you believe you will receive eternal life by “sticking close” to this false christ/prophet, and not Jesus Christ, I fear for your lives.  Will you continue to look the other way and excuse his and all of the GB’s actions, thinking that God will correct them?  God looks at us individually and views OUR choice to serve Him and His Son, or to serve men who expect obedience to them.  (Joel 3:14)
      “Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. 47 They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.”  Luke 20:46,47
      “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.” Matt 7:15 
      “Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.”  Col 2:8
      “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’  Matt 7:21-23
       
      Then the Lord said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.  Jer 14:14
       
       
       
    • By 4Jah2me
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. I don't watch television and I'm quite choosy as to films that I will watch, but when it comes to the 'Life of Christ Jesus' I am quite keen to watch films and programmes of interest. 
      I have just finished watching Series One of ' The Chosen'. It is about the Life of Jesus from before He made Himself know to the 'public at large'. 
      Of course it uses a lot of 'artistic licence' and lots of things in it are not facts, but I find it helpful to see the type of lifestyle the Jews lived and to see Jesus and His followers as real people. 
      I don't know if your 'Leaders' will tell you not to watch it, but i found it relaxing and a pleasure to watch. I particularly liked Nicodemus and his meeting with Jesus, the questions asked and answered. 
      I don't think any of you would find it offensive but of course you will note many faults in it, as i did. However, in my opinion it is far better to watch this than watch most other films of our time. 
       
    • By 4Jah2me
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. How Is Jesus’ Sacrifice “a Ransom for Many”?
      Payment. The Bible says that Christians were “bought with a price.” (
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) That price is the blood of Jesus, with which he “bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.”—Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .  Can we please take a look at this little quote from a JW Org page. Link is above for reference. 
      It looks all good doesn't it ? But is it in fact deceiving ? It's the bit that I've highlighted in RED. 
      It's a part quote from a scripture, AND, it is where I say that JW Org misuses scripture. 
      Lets look at the Revelation scripture Ch 5 v 8, 9  BUT also include verse 10. 
      When he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the 24 elders
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  fell down before the Lamb, and each one had a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense. (The incense means the prayers of the holy ones.)Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10  and you made them to be a kingdomHello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  and priests to our God,Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” In the top sentence ( marked as 1. Payment ) the GB / Writing department of CCJW / Watchtower make it look as if the Revelation scripture referenced is talking about ALL Christians. BUT, if we look at verse 10, we can see that it is talking only about the Anointed. How ? Because it says those ones are to rule as kings over the earth.” 
      So, Jesus was slaughtered and with his blood he bought Anointed Ones from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
      Do people fully understand this ?
      These ones eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ.  John 6 v 53 - 56.
       So Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54  Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day; 55  for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56  Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him.
      When Anointed ones are resurrected to heavenly life they have no further testing, because they have eaten the flesh and drank the blood of Christ and they are in union with Him. 
      Whereas, the Earthly class do not eat and drink those things, so the ransom has not yet paid the price for them. Therefore the Earthly Class will get a testing at the end of the Thousand Years. Only on passing that test will the ransom of Christ pay the price for them and then they will 'come to life'. 
      I feel these are not my words, but God's. I have never thought of myself as inspired but if i can be of use to God through Christ, then may that take place according to God's will. 
       




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.