Why should such mistaken views not cast doubt on whether Jesus was guiding his followers?

[Diakonos]

I really didn't know whether to laugh, cry or throw my hands up in despair when we discussed this at last night's meeting. The answers that were given during these paragraphs and the response of the study conductor really showed to me how, as a general rule, we are such a non-thinking and illogical group of people.

 

⁵ As we saw in Chapter 2 of this book, the Bible Students spent decades pointing out that the year 1914 would be significant in fulfilling Bible prophecy. However, at that time they believed that Christ’s presence had begun in 1874, that he had begun to rule in heaven in 1878, and that the Kingdom would not be fully set up until October 1914. The harvest would extend from 1874 to 1914 and would culminate in the gathering of the anointed to heaven. Do mistaken ideas such as these cast doubt on whether Jesus was guiding those faithful ones by means of holy spirit?

⁶ Not at all! Think again of our opening illustration. Would the premature ideas and eager questions of the tourists cast doubt on the reliability of their guide? Hardly! Similarly, although God’s people sometimes try to work out details of Jehovah’s purpose before it is time for the holy spirit to guide them to such truths, it is clear that Jesus is leading them. Thus, faithful ones prove willing to be corrected and humbly adjust their views.

 

It is also upsetting that the governing body, in instances like this, always speak in the third person. How much more humble would it be for them to say ;

 

"Similarly, although we, the faithful and discreet slave sometimes try to work out details of Jehovah’s purpose before it is time for the holy spirit to guide us to such truths..."

 

Any comments ?

 

[Melinda Mills]

*** kr chap. 5 p. 49 pars. 1-3 The King Shines Light on the Kingdom ***

IMAGINE that an experienced guide is leading you on a tour of a wondrous and beautiful city. The city is new to you and to those with you, so you hang on to the guide’s every word. At times, you and your fellow tourists wonder excitedly about some of the city’s features that you have not yet seen. When you ask your guide about such things, however, he withholds his comments until key moments, often just when a certain sight is coming into view. In time, you grow ever more impressed with his wisdom, for he tells you what you need to know right when you need to know it.

2 True Christians are in a situation similar to that of the tourists. We are eagerly learning about the most wondrous of cities, “the city having real foundations,” the Kingdom of God. (Heb. 11:10) When Jesus was on earth, he personally guided his followers, leading them to a deeper knowledge of that Kingdom. Did he answer all their questions and tell them everything about that Kingdom at once? No. He said: “I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now.” (John 16:12) As the wisest of guides, Jesus never burdened his disciples with knowledge that they were not prepared to handle.

3 Jesus spoke the words recorded at John 16:12 on the final night of his earthly life. After his death, how would he continue to teach faithful people about God’s Kingdom? He assured his apostles: “The spirit of the truth . . . will guide you into all the truth.” (John 16:13) We may think of the holy spirit as a patient guide. The spirit is Jesus’ means of teaching his followers whatever they need to know about God’s Kingdom—right when they need to know it.

…

*** kr chap. 5 p. 50 The King Shines Light on the Kingdom *** Understanding a Pivotal Year

5 As we saw in Chapter 2 of this book, the Bible Students spent decades pointing out that the year 1914 would be significant in fulfilling Bible prophecy. However, at that time they believed that Christ’s presence had begun in 1874, that he had begun to rule in heaven in 1878, and that the Kingdom would not be fully set up until October 1914. The harvest would extend from 1874 to 1914 and would culminate in the gathering of the anointed to heaven. Do mistaken ideas such as these cast doubt on whether Jesus was guiding those faithful ones by means of holy spirit?

6 Not at all! Think again of our opening illustration. Would the premature ideas and eager questions of the tourists cast doubt on the reliability of their guide? Hardly! Similarly, although God’s people sometimes try to work out details of Jehovah’s purpose before it is time for the holy spirit to guide them to such truths, it is clear that Jesus is leading them. Thus, faithful ones prove willing to be corrected and humbly adjust their views.—Jas. 4:6.

[Diakonos]

This hardly answers the question Melinda does it ? The problem is, as Gerrit Loesch said in the November broadcast, is that the GB are still roving about !! If the slave can err in doctrinal matters and organizational policies, as stated in the February 2017 WT, we can never be certain from whom the teaching has come. Jesus or men ?

Jesus does not give out false information or wrong dates. Research what JF Rutherford said Bible students could confidently expect in 1925.

The GB have therefore been guilty of doing what the scriptures warn us against in 1 Cor 4:6

 

6 Now, brothers, these things I have applied to myself and A·polʹlos for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against the other.

 

 

[Melinda Mills]

I did not try to answer. I placed it there for those who did not attend the meeting or bother to read and study the new publication.

 

You made some good observations.

[Diakonos]

My apologies Melinda.

[Ann O'Maly]

The illustration of the tourists is not really analogous.

"IMAGINE that an experienced guide is leading you on a tour of a wondrous and beautiful city"

Jesus. Fine.

"Would the premature ideas and eager questions of the tourists cast doubt on the reliability of their guide? Hardly! Similarly, although God’s people sometimes try to work out details of Jehovah’s purpose before it is time for the holy spirit to guide them to such truths, it is clear that Jesus is leading them."

That's not quite how it's been in the Organization, though, has it? I suggest that it has been more like a scenario where some of the more dominant tourists start guiding the other tourists, loudly and authoritatively explaining details about the city's features that are a mishmash of fact and falsehood. The experienced guide is shaking his head, trying to speak above the few dominant tourists and waving the group back on track but they're all wandering off after the loud, 'knowledgeable' ones.

Eph. 4:14, 15.

 

[Evacuated]

@Ann O'Maly. Nice embroidery. No difference to outcome mind you.

[Witness]

On 12/9/2016 at 1:34 AM, Diakonos said:

I really didn't know whether to laugh, cry or throw my hands up in despair when we discussed this at last night's meeting. The answers that were given during these paragraphs and the response of the study conductor really showed to me how, as a general rule, we are such a non-thinking and illogical group of people.

1874 - "Christ came in the character of a Bridegroom in 1874.... at the beginning of the Gospel harvest." (Watchtower, Oct 1879, p. 4)

This wasn’t presented as conjecture, but as fact. 

(1889) "Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty (Rev. 16:14) which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God's word."

Presented as fact, but notice - (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, The Time Is At Hand, 1889 Ed., p. 101. The 1915 Edition of this texts changed "A.D. 1914" to read 'A.D. 1915')

How many ‘facts’ make a wrong?

Here is a ‘fact’ that supports 1915 –

(1889) - "In the coming 26 years, all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved." (C.T. Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 98-99, 1889)  1889+26=1915

(1889) Again in the same year, 1914 re-emerges as the conclusion of the harvest:

"Remember that the forty years' Jewish Harvest ended October A.D. 69, and was followed by the complete overthrow of that nation; and that likewise the forty years of the Gospel age harvest will end October, 1914, and that likewise the overthrow of 'Christendom,' so-called, must be expected to immediately follow." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 245)

1902 - "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914." (The Time Is At Hand, 1902 edition, p. 99)

"Do mistaken ideas such as these cast doubt on whether Jesus was guiding those faithful ones by means of holy spirit?"

Christ is Truth.  “Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.  And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32

Certainly, the question should be asked, are these teachers Christ’s disciples? 

Or false prophets?

“And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. 

Similarly, although God’s people sometimes try to work out details of Jehovah’s purpose before it is time for the holy spirit to guide them to such truths, it is clear that Jesus is leading them.

No, rather, scripture shows clearly that Jesus is NOT leading them.

 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’

  And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’—  when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”  Deut 18:19-22

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Witness]

On 12/9/2016 at 1:34 AM, Diakonos said:

Do mistaken ideas such as these cast doubt on whether Jesus was guiding those faithful ones by means of holy spirit?

⁶ Not at all! Think again of our opening illustration. Would the premature ideas and eager questions of the tourists cast doubt on the reliability of their guide? Hardly! Similarly, although God’s people sometimes try to work out details of Jehovah’s purpose before it is time for the holy spirit to guide them to such truths, it is clear that Jesus is leading them.

Has God changed?   Would the decrees that are represented and fulfilled by his Son, change?  

The GB, genuine anointed ones, have stepped in as head over the anointed Body of Christ - God's priesthood.  God's entire sanctuary/ priesthood of anointed ones are to defend the Truth in Christ; if they waver from Truth, they "bear the iniquity" of defiled teachings to the congregations. 1 Pet 2:5-10; Num 18:1; Exod 28:38; Heb 13:15,16; Mal 2:7

On 12/9/2016 at 1:34 AM, Diakonos said:

It is also upsetting that the governing body, in instances like this, always speak in the third person. How much more humble would it be for them to say ; "Similarly, although we, the faithful and discreet slave sometimes try to work out details of Jehovah’s purpose before it is time for the holy spirit to guide us to such truths..."

"If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

" If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." 1 John 6:8-10

"I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran, I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied" Jer 23:15-32; Rev 8:11; Jude 1:11-13; 17:1-6; 1 Cor 4:7,8; Rev 13:11,14-17; 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jer+23%3A15-32%3B+Rev+8%3A11%3B+Jude+1%3A11-13%3B+17%3A1-6%3B+1+Cor+4%3A7%2C8%3B+Rev+13%3A11%2C14-17%3B+&version=NKJV

"Where is the true religion?"  http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2012/05/where-is-true-religion.html

 

[Anna]

On 1/2/2017 at 4:32 PM, AllenSmith said:

their updated chronology that replaced 1874, with 2043

Oh really? I didn't know that. Kind of interesting since it could coincide with the theory of the overlapping  generation.....

[Anna]

15 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Scripture is never stopping to learn. We all do that daily. If anything F. Franz taught me, was never stop understanding scripture. That's the key to your personal salvation.

No argument there!

[TrueTomHarley]

On December 9, 2016 at 4:34 AM, Diakonos said:

It is also upsetting that the governing body, in instances like this, always speak in the third person. How much more humble would it be for them to say ;

 

Usually it is considered bad form for an author of non-fiction to write in the first person. It is considered immodest.

 It is similar to why you don't say "in my opinion." OF COURSE it's in your opinion. You wrote it.

 

On December 9, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Ann O'Maly said:

 I suggest that it has been more like a scenario where some of the more dominant tourists start guiding the other tourists, loudly and authoritatively explaining details about the city's features that are a mishmash of fact and falsehood. The experienced guide is shaking his head, trying to speak above the few dominant tourists and waving the group back on track but they're all wandering off after the loud, 'knowledgeable' ones.

At this point one of the dominant tourists carjacks a steamroller and attempts to flatten the tour guide.