"Nourishing Spiritual Food"?

[TrueTomHarley]

40 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

but try telling that the the thousands who were molested by members of your "brand" only to have their abusers covered up and protected.

It is true that this one has in some ways blown up in our faces. (Let us leave unchallenged, for the moment, your 'thousands.') In a way it is an byproduct of doing what the Bible tells Christians to do: keep the congregation clean. Reports of wrongdoing (of all types) are looked into with a view of applying discipline to the proper degree and, in the case of pedophiles, ensuring that one cannot slip out of one congregation and into another undetected - as they can in any other church.

The "practical" solution, though it means shortchanging the God who expects a clean people, is to do what most do: Preach to them on Sunday and let that be the end of it. If they apply it, they apply it. If they don't, they don't. 

That way when a pervert is nabbed, they are never associated with any particular religion (unless they are clergy), since the church's policy, like that of Sergeant Shultz, is "I know notttthhhhhiiiiiiggggggggggggg!"

I'll take Jehovah's Witnesses any day, even IF their efforts to keep their congregations clean has resulted in some legal trouble. 

[JW Insider]

22 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Let us leave unchallenged, for the moment, your 'thousands.'

I don't think it does much good to challenge it. There are nearly 120,000 congregations in the world. The first time I ever heard of a "pedophile database" was not when I was at Bethel, but near the end of the  following decade, around 1998. A couple years later, when ex-JWs were beginning to make a big deal out of it, my uncle (circuit overseer) and I called a friend in the Service Department to clear up what we should say if asked about it directly. He said that although it sounds high, it averaged out to "just a little less" than one person in every congregation, but that these were mostly USA/North America figures, and he couldn't say how this might compare to the rest of the world. Also, anecdotally at least, a large number of them had been disfellowshipped and were showing no interest in coming back.

We have about 120,000 congregations in the world, and I don't think we catch all the child abusers. Perhaps some want to become JWs to help overcome their problem. Based on the impression I got in 1998, that might translate to somewhere on the order of 50,000 abusers from the 80's through 2000. And perhaps another 100,000 from 2000 through 2017/8. This sounds way too high, 150,000 in aggregate, but is still less than one every two decades, per congregation. I don't believe it's even half that, but wouldn't be surprised if an up-to-date worldwide database contained a number like 1% of current publishers.

1% of 8 million is 80,000. Most of these would no longer be associated with a congregation anyway. But the other thing is that a high number of child abusers abuse more than one child, and continue to find persons to abuse all their life.

I recently found out that the brother who married my sister, and who was a physical abuser (over which my sister left him to remarry) was a victim of something like this when he was younger. I think we'll find out that it is much more common than people have let on. My sister was instructed not to inform the hospital workers or police under threat of disciplinary action, losing her pioneer "status" and TMS privileges. Her husband, a ministerial servant, was apparently barely talked to, and continued to advance to a position as elder. The thing is, I don't think anyone outside our own family and a couple of elders every really knew about this. My parents are of the sort that believe it shames the family to admit that my sister married such a man, and would rather only talk about his success as an elder. (I was at Bethel when this was going on.) So how much do we know about our own congregations unless we are on the judicial committee, or it blows up into the newspapers, or an Australian Royal Commission?

Another person in our congregation was an elderly special pioneer who started to get in trouble for sleazy behavior with younger sisters, mostly pioneer sisters, who were between 18 and 24 or so. Not "child abuse" and no crime of any kind, but also an issue of not disciplining him because he would lose his special pioneer stipend, and his son already had a very high position at Bethel. My father was one of the elders who talked to him, and I was a "second witness" to corroborate one of the sister's stories. I had evidently caught him improperly touching/groping on only one of many occasions.

I mention this because it was easy for me to think that one abuser per congregation is not that unlikely. Therefore 1,000s of victims who suffered from "cover-up" is not that unlikely.

[Shiwiii]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In a way it is an byproduct of doing what the Bible tells Christians to do: keep the congregation clean. Reports of wrongdoing (of all types) are looked into with a view of applying discipline to the proper degree and, in the case of pedophiles, ensuring that one cannot slip out of one congregation and into another undetected - as they can in any other church.

So what you mean is that by knowing that Gonzalo Campo molested kids and making him an elder and putting him with other kids, is just a byproduct of doing God will?

Also, keeping him in the cong keeps him from slipping out and into another one? 

 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2816630/13-5M-award-Jehovahs-Witnesses-molest-case.html

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

That way when a pervert is nabbed, they are never associated with any particular religion (unless they are clergy), since the church's policy, like that of Sergeant Shultz, is "I know notttthhhhhiiiiiiggggggggggggg!"

Isn't this a job for the police? Why is it discouraged to report? Oh and don't give me that BS about "we don't discourage" yes they do. Those "elders" are not even qualified to hold a conversation about psychology let alone actually try and do anything about abuse. 

 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I'll take Jehovah's Witnesses any day, even IF their efforts to keep their congregations clean has resulted in some legal trouble. 

 Keep drinking that glass of water with the drop of poison in it. 

[Shiwiii]

4 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I don't think we catch all the child abusers.

you don't even have to catch them all, just try not putting the ones who admit it with kids. Also on top of that, how about reporting these accusation to the police who are trained to handle these situations? 

[TrueTomHarley]

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

My parents are of the sort that believe it shames the family to admit that my sister married such a man

I think that has typically been the case of persons anywhere - JW or not, religious or atheist. Historically, people have not been in a hurry to air their dirty laundry. Reality TV has changed much of that. Probably also a factor is that more and more families are absolute train wrecks and people are just acclimating to it. 

The very reason there is a phrase called "skeletons in the closet" is that persons once succeeded in keeping them there. These days people have become accustomed to them stampeding like cattle through Dodge City.  Is it George Bernard Shaw who said: "if you cannot get rid of the skeletons in your closet, see if you can make them dance"?

I think I would not challenge that Witnesses have had a greater adjustment than many in learning to let those skeletons roam, since their reputation is that of applying Bible morality and they are reluctant to see that reputation tarnished. But, as you say, if there were one per congregation per two-decade period (your figures - not mine) that would add up.

What will happen will happen. It is the classic example of getting slammed for doing the right thing - investigating abusers for punishment and protection of other congregations. Have mistakes been made? I wouldn't doubt it. @Shiwiii is wetting himself pointing to one of them. (to what degree it is a mistake, or if it is a mistake at all, I do not know. Suffice it to say, however, that we got stuck with a real rotter, who caused a lot of harm)

Could Shiwiii do it better? THAT is an entirely different question. And it is one impossible to answer because, to my knowledge, no one else has ever tried. Everyone else has a policy, usually through neglect, but perhaps also by design, of knowing as little about their congregants as possible. That way, you can't get left holding the bag if anyone is outed. Every time you turn around, a pedophile is outed. Never do we hear of his religious affiliation. It is our own fault for attempting to keep a morally clean congregation - a "people for his name." 

Pedophiles are as common as hens' feathers - we have certainly learned that. It is even more so when the statute of limitations is forever. Anthony Morris said it best: we were all a little naive when pedophilia burst upon the scene. 

 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I have always had a gut feeling that a ratio something like this was correct, so disregarding the personal tragedies institutionally ...  as flawed humans we are by comparison doing extremely well.   Certainly Jehovah's spirit has a LOT to do with that.

What frosts my ice tray is the global cover-up and denial, and officially declaring what is proven to be absolutely true as "APOSTATE LIES" .

... AND PAYING TEAMS OF LAYERS TO PERVERT JUSTICE WITH THE BROTHERHOOD'S MONEY (JEHOVAH'S MONEY) BEING USED TO COVER-UP, OBFUSCATE, AND LIE ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON.

I try to be a loyal Theocratic man ... but I make a CRAPPY  Corporation shill.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

3 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

ARC proves that JW children are 10 times Safer

Do you mean to tell me this has all been much ado about nothing?

@Shiwiiiand his friends have been blowing up this balloon as if experiencing orgasm for months, even years. Even JTR, who now acts as though he knew it all along,  did all he could to suggest the Witness organization was the very Mecca of pedophilia. And now, it all comes to this? JW children are the safest of all?

Can it really be? I need some smart people to weigh in on this.

[Shiwiii]

14 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

What frosts my ice tray is the global cover-up and denial, and officially declaring what is proven to be absolutely true as "APOSTATE LIES" .

... AND PAYING TEAMS OF LAYERS TO PERVERT JUSTICE WITH THE BROTHERHOOD'S MONEY (JEHOVAH'S MONEY) BEING USED TO COVER-UP, OBFUSCATE, AND LIE ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON.

I try to be a loyal Theocratic man ... but I make a CRAPPY  Corporation shill.

 

This is exactly the problem that is being brought up with the Campo case as well as others. It is this THE problem. Of course we all know that there is evil people within every organization, its just in some peoples nature. This is a problem. When the rules of any organization not only allow this kind of action to happen, but create an umbrella of protection not to the victims but rather to the perpetrator, then you know that things have to change. Its even more appalling when there is a refusal to make necessary changes to protect the victims and instead look the other way. The way the wtbts handles cases of abuse is down right wrong. NONE of those elders are qualified to conduct such investigations, nor are they in any power to make a change to the org as a whole. It has to come from the top down. My question to not only you JTR, but the rest of the jw's here is, if God is backing this org, then why the refusal to protect children? Why the lies and cover ups? Why the willingness to throw tons of money at court cases to hide pedophiles? Is that what God wants? Does He really support an org that not only allows this kind of behavior but fosters a shelter for those who practice this sort of evil? 

 

15 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

AU ratio =  41,622 / 23,968,973

 

Expected JW ratio: x / 67,418 (number of publishers)

 

cross multiply: 41622 * 67418 = 2,806,071,996

 

leaves us the equation:  23,968,973 * x = 2,806,071,996

 

solve for x: x = 2,806,071,996 / 23,968,973 

 

x = 117

Statistics can be made out of anything. For example did anyone poll just how many of those folks are redhead? I'm sure the ratio of redhead folks within the org is less than that of AU as a whole. Does this make jws better because there are less redheads molesting kids? No where in the writings of the ARC does anything imply that children are safer within the org, that was just something you spun up. The problem isn't about statistics, its about facts. The facts are that the jw org protects pedophiles. I don't care if it was 50 less than the population average or 1000, the problem is the pedophile paradise that is now being associated with the jw org. 

 

15 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

@Shiwiii is wetting himself pointing to one of them.

now I'm wetting myself. wetting myself because there are people who are seeing facts about how this org conducts itself. Hey Tom, I noticed you dropped your tirade over coming to Jesus. Seems to be a pattern with you anytime we discuss something. You think you've got the "gotcha" to the discussion all lined up, but it never pans out so you resort to the "wetting" "orgasm" sort of comments. 

[TrueTomHarley]

44 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

if God is backing this org, then why the refusal to protect children?

 

16 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

ARC proves that JW children are 10 times Safer

They may not be tap-dancing to your tune, but they appear to be doing not that badly overall.

44 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Statistics can be made out of anything.

Yes. I positively hate it when they make me look like a donkey.

44 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

I noticed you dropped your tirade over coming to Jesus. Seems to be a pattern with you anytime we discuss something. You think you've got the "gotcha" to the discussion all lined up, but it never pans out

Before speaking with certain characters, one must concede that they will have the final word. It is either that or trading barbs with them for the rest of one's life, for they will never ever ever ever give up. And when they run out of things to say, they will simply recycle their first remark. Nor am I necessarily done with that thread. You are not the only yo-yo, you know.

It is among the reasons Bro Morris agrees with the Bible and says speaking with apostates is not a fine thing.

[Shiwiii]

3 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is among the reasons Bro Morris agrees with the Bible and says speaking with apostates is not a fine thing.

especially in tight pants huh? 

[JW Insider]

18 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

ARC proves that JW children are 10 times Safer

. . . Bottom line - Jehovah's Witness children 10 times less likely to be sexually molested than the rest of the Australian population.

I thought I saw that article you quoted come up some months ago in a Google search about ARC. At the time there was another claim going around that was supposed to show that the ARC statistics showed the opposite. I don't believe either of them are correct. But I would never claim that the problem is much worse among JWs than all other religions. I do think that we could still do much better.

But the ARC did supply some simple statistics that fit the numbers I had heard previously about the USA. Note that these were the most common statistics that were reported by the commission:

• There are currently 817 congregations in Australia with more than 68,000 active members”
• Despite the Jehovah’s Witnesses receiving more than 1000 allegations of child abuse since the 1950s, not one perpetrator was reported to authorities, the Child Abuse Royal Commission heard.

Going back to the 1950's, 1960's and even  the 1970's, is a bit anomalous because any such reports prior to when attention was first given to the problem are obviously "statistical outliers." However the main point is that Australia had records of over 1,000 child sexual abusers, representing even more instances of abuse, since abusers who are caught, are usually found to be multiple offenders. This turns out to be:

• more than one abuser per current number of congregations, over several decades
• and about two victims per congregation, over several decades.

Extrapolating would still imply the same "order of magnitude" I heard a couple decades ago. In other words:

• 1000 abusers in 817 congregations (AU) is 122.4% and over 1500 reported victims.
• 122.4% of 120,000 congregations (worldwide) works out to 146,880 abusers, which implies about 220,000 victims. That's based on numbers over many decades, of course.

Although I can't believe it's as high as the ARC numbers for Australia alone would imply, it still shows a potentially huge problem that we should do everything we can to mitigate. Whether it's 220,000 victims as ARC implies, or 10% of that which is still 22,000 victims, or even 1% which is 2,200 victims.

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

But I would never claim that the problem is much worse among JWs than all other religions.

i agree - "statistically" :)))))

But how you dare to compare false religions with only true one? :)))))

greetings!