Jehovah's Witnesses Child Abuse / Pedophilia and the Governing body.

[JOHN BUTLER]

@TrueTomHarley What is yout ideas on Romans 13, v1 through 7

 

Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. ²  Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves.  For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; ⁴  for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad.⁵  There is therefore compelling reason for you to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience.⁶  That is why you are also paying taxes; for they are God’s public servants constantly serving this very purpose. ⁷  Render to all their dues: to the one who calls for the tax, the tax;  to the one who calls for the tribute, the tribute; to the one who calls for fear, such fear; to the one who calls for honor, such honor.

Now surely this is talking about Earthly Governments, courts and all, and being in subjection to them, and being obedient to them when it is not disobeying God. 

Also, Matthew 5 v 41. 'and if someone in authority compels you into service for a mile, go with him two miles.'

Put simply, Jesus was telling his listeners that if an authority compelled them into some kind of legitimate service, they should perform it willingly and without resentment. They were thus to pay “Caesar’s things to Caesar” but not overlook the obligation to pay “God’s things to God.”—Mark 12:17. *

So now, I think the Governing Body should obey the law of the land, governments, court orders, and all, as long as it does not go against God's will.

And I think you will find i have backed that up with scriptures from your own Bible. N W T of the H S.

You may say that human governments and courts do a bad job, but then it's not for you or I to judge them, as it seems they stand in place because God Himself wants them there at  this time. 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

@JOHN BUTLER     What are your thoughts on Luke 2:41-50?

Now his parents were accustomed to go from year to year to Jerusalem for the festival of the Passover.i ⁴²  And when he was 12 years old, they went up according to the custom of the festival.j ⁴³  When the days of the festival were over and they were returning, the boy Jesus remained behind in Jerusalem, and his parents did not notice it. ⁴⁴  Assuming that he was in the group traveling together, they went a day’s journey and then began to search for him among the relatives and acquaintances.⁴⁵  But not finding him, they returned to Jerusalem and made a diligent search for him. ⁴⁶  Well, after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers and listening to them and asking them questions.⁴⁷  But all those listening to him were in constant amazement at his understanding and his answers.k ⁴⁸  Now when his parents saw him, they were astounded, and his mother said to him: “Child, why did you treat us this way? Here your father and I have been frantically looking for you.” ⁴⁹  But he said to them: “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in the house of my Father?”l ⁵⁰  However, they did not understand what he was saying to them.

I think you will find that all verses are from the NWT.

[JOHN BUTLER]

@TrueTomHarley So you didn't want to answer my question ? 

[TrueTomHarley]

@JOHN BUTLER, where you are going has been gone many times before on this forum. I have taken part in it there. Look it up.

I don't want to do old forever. Your question has been addressed many times over. And you and your new chums simply ignore the answer and ask your question again.

I just brought up something new. Why do you not address it?  But if you do not want to, take note of the only other NEW thought here, and becasue it is new it bears repeating. 

If you work to oppose the one organization that has a child sexual abuse prevention rate ten times that of the overall population, how are you not acting as a friend of child abuse?

[Witness]

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If you work to oppose the one organization that has a child sexual abuse prevention rate ten times that of the overall population, how are you not acting as a friend of child abuse?

The organization is not the Temple of God.  The anointed priesthood is  - you know, those who have no voice?  They are the Temple of God.  1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:20-22

I hope you can see that comparing the organization to the early temple by using Luke 2:41-50, just doesn't work.  Besides, child abuse has been reported to have occurred in kingdom halls.  

[Space Merchant]

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@TrueTomHarley So you didn't want to answer my question ? 

What is the question exactly?

Also regarding following the laws of the land, Christians will obey laws, pay taxes, give back things to Caesar as Jesus said, etc, however, they will and always will be ready to not let the laws of the land conflict with either Scripture and or belief, and most importantly, God the Father of whom they pay total servitude and religious worship to, even if in some cases it, a great deal of resistance against various laws that will hinder anything biblical and or service to God, it will not go unchecked by those who follow the bible.

Paul wrote something of the like in the Romans epistles during the reign of the ruthless emperor, Nero, of whom Paul had to appeal to for he was wrongly accused and imprisoned (Acts 25:11) and was kept under guard prior to his case (Acts 28:30), and information from Peter also (and a bit of the Tanakh/OT) - for no Christian would want to be put in a position that his or her service of religious worship to the one True God as well listening to  His Spoken Word, would be at risk regarding said laws of the land, there's a phrase for it but I went blank on it, but a Christian would not allow laws to stop them having what they put first in their lives, which is God and his Kingdom that is to come.

The Law above laws is of God's and only his, should anyone attempt to stop it, there will be those who will resist,for we have examples in the scriptures of such.

[JOHN BUTLER]

@TrueTomHarley Well I think I proved the point and I'm happy with that. New subject, when you cannot or will not answer the old one, I don't think so... 

And, I don't "work to oppose the one organization that has a child sexual abuse prevention rate ten times that of the overall population,". I'm just not impressed by numbers. And how can you compare an Org that is supposed to be completely clean to a world that deliberately is not wanting to be clean. 

I do have a great deal of feeling and empathy with the past victims and I'm also very interested in trying to prevent more child abuse within the Org. Hence my suggestion that the Governing Body be completely removed / disfellowshipped, and the Org be sorted out properly. But my reliance for that is not on man, it is on God... It seems true that God will sort out those He wants to use. The Apostle Paul being a great example.

So time will tell, and I will wait and see the result..........   8 men that put themselves in the place of God will not remain there I'm sure. And all those that serve the 8 men may find it deeply shocking when their 'boat' is rocked very hard, but the Org will survive.  

[TrueTomHarley]

12 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@TrueTomHarley So you didn't want to answer my question ? 

Yes, you know, I do.

It has been answered many times before and the answer is simply ignored, because the answer requires some thought to process and single-issue people have usually lost that ability. They have laid hold of a "gotcha" question and when they die, it is in their wills form it to be inscribed on their gravemarkers.

However, let us answer the question from a fresh angle.

There is a reason that Jehovah's Witnesses took some 50 cases to the U.S. Supreme Court, won most of them, and are universally given credit for thereby defining human rights for everybody. It is because they did not say to all the lower courts, judges, and lawyers: "Yes, boss...whatever you say." They sensed a deep injustice, refused to go along with it, dragged it into the Supreme Court, where higher and smarter and more impartial judges agreed with them.

I did not participate overmuch in discussion of legal tactics because should I be hauled into the courts someday for something or other, I plan to hire an attorney. The reason I plan to hire an attorney is because I know the law is absurdly complex and I do not trust the impartiality of my prosecutor and not necessarily even the judge. If I was arguing my case before the 600 law system of ancient Israel, I would not hire an attorney. But if I am arguing my case before the 2,000,000 law system of today, I will.

Therefore the proper response to criticism of this or that legal tactic of Witness attorneys is to blow it off the indulgence of hot air windbags. I will accept their criticisms when I know that they are capable enough in the law to represent themselves in court, and plan to do just that, rather than hire an attorney. Otherwise, I figure they are just whiners, largely uninformed, trying to push a favored point of view.

John would sigh and swoon over the blessings and final truth-finding abiltiy of the human justice system. Is he for real? Especially in view of the Salon report which shows the human justice system routinely screws up on this favorite (and only) cause of his.

https://www.salon.com/2016/12/11/custody-in-crisis-how-family-courts-nationwide-put-children-in-danger/

Is anyone other than John so naive as to think that there is nothing but joy to be found in the endless stream of lawyers being cranked out of law school who will go on to sue the pants off of everyone and commandeer one third (at least) of the proceeds? What do they do with it? Does anyone think that when the Boy Scouts were sued in Portland around 2010 for child sex abuse and the resulting verdict was said to be the largest ever awarded to a single victim, the legal team pumps the proceeds, after expenses, into anti-child abuse causes - maybe even into the Boy Scouts themselves with the stipulation it be used just for that purpose? The head lawyer said something to the effect of 'the Boy Scouts have undertaken a noble task in working with children and it is his sincere hope that the award will impress upon them the need to do it better.' Does anyone think that he is not lying through his teeth? Has nobody ever read a John Grisholm novel?

In my area there are non-stop ads from a team of attorneys featuring people who look like glamorous movie stars that have never seen a day's suffering in their lives. 'So and so' got me 3 million dollars, 12 times what the insurance company offered!' they say. One person said 35 times . I looked into the case. The defendent's attorney had actually dragged his feet and opposed this process. He introduced some legal "trick." I was outraged!!!  The lying sonuva you-know-what! When I heard the 35 times verdict, I rejoiced that justice had been served!!!

Then I opened my adjusted premium bill.

No. It is as Forest Gump said or would have said had he thought of it: "Lawyers is as lawyers does." I don't weigh in on their tactics. I realize they are operating in a fantastically complex and lucrative area mostly of their own making, and often made for just that reason.

Since child sexual abuse is endemic human society and everyone is suing everyone else in an effort to stop it, eventually millions of dollars will transfer in all directions and everything will be as it was in the first place - and child sexual abuse will still be endemic - with the exception of the lawyers who will have scored a significant financial windfall.

As I said on the other thread, there may be other hearings like those of the ARC and my instinct is to say BRING THEM ON! Let each one firmly establish what the Australian one did - that Jehovah's Witnesses have a child sexual abuse prevention rate ten times more successful than the non-Witness world and that therefore only a friend of child abuse would oppose them.

If need be, let the world divide into two camps: those who are outraged because for a given school shooting, the outcome was not "handled properly" - the grief counselors did not say the right things, - and those who would recognize the value of a school that takes actions so that shootings do not happen in the first place, and therefore almost never has to call up the grief counselors. Sometimes you almost think the first camp is driven by the grief counselors themselves who want to stay employed. - after all, their college grief counselor training put them tens of thousands of dollars into debt.

 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@TrueTomHarley I find it so so funny how you keep referencing worldly events or worldly things when the JW Org is supposed to be NO PART OF THIS WORLD..

If you feel the God is with the Org then why would you worry about the inadequacy of the legal system. Surely God will have the outcome He wants ? Or do you not have that faith ? 

Please tell me if you believe this is true or not. (Remember i have stated on my own FB page that i honestly don't know the truth about anything anymore). I have read that the Governing Body formed two separate legal departments, one in the JW Org (as i call it) and one in the Watchtower Soc. The purpose for this was to slow down court cases. If a court demanded documents from one of them, such as JW Org, then the legal dept of JW Org would send a letter to the W/T Soc, asking them for said documents. W/T Soc would write back to JW Org saying basically  'you can't have the documents'. Then this would carry on back and forth, the purpose being to slow down court proceeding against the JW Org, and hopefully get victims to give up their case... Now if the GB have complete control over both JW Org and W/T Soc, then surely they could just give the instructions to whomever to hand over the documents. Job done.  The supposed letters between the JW Org and W/T Soc were put up online, but of course they could be fake.  I'm keeping an open mind on it.

One other thing i want to look into is that the GB at one time changed their idea of what the Romans 13 scripture meant. Instead of it meaning subjection to the worldly governments / courts etc, i think they said it meant subjection to the GB themselves. Now if that was in 1997 it would prove very interesting, as it seems it was in 1997 that they were getting concerned about the amount of Child Abuse within the Org.  

However, you come back to the same old rubbish. And as I've said, the Nation of Israel might not have offered up as many of it's children into the fire as the other nations did. but in God's eyes what the nation of Israel did was far worse. 

Try just for once to see the Child Abuse within JW Org, from God's viewpoint. God would not be so interested in the child abuse in the world as He is in the Child Abuse within the JW Org, if indeed it is His chosen Org. God would want His chosen people to be clean and to serve Him properly. God does not demand that of the rest of the world. I'm sure you would see the difference if you would want to. 

However it seems you only want to think from a human standpoint and to impress humans with figures or percentages. And it seems you want to rely on your 8 men, your Governing Body, to do it all their way.

Whereas I'm relying on God to sort out an Organisation that will serve Him properly before Armageddon comes. Whether that is JW Org or not i do not know. I honestly do not know. I care and i want to know, but I would dearly like God to make it known to me. 

 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Amen!

[TrueTomHarley]

38 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Remember i have stated on my own FB page that i honestly don't know the truth about anything anymore

For someone who honestly doesn't know anything, you certainly are sure that the answer to to DF the GB.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Try just for once to see the Child Abuse within JW Org, from God's viewpoint.

I don't have to. You have made it quite clear that you know what it is -  as though you had climbed up there in his throne with him - and I can just take your word for it.

On legal matters, you have my reply, and then you immediately carry on as though you had not read it, asking me for a tactical play by play - somehow assuming that I would know it.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

One other thing i want to look into is that the GB at one time changed their idea

They change their ideas all the time about many things and have never said otherwise. What do you think "tacking" is?