At what moment "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth"?

[Kosonen]

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

^{@Space Merchant}

 

²³  “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people. "    Zechariah 8 v23. 

 

 

Note he does not say the Jewish man symbolizes the Governing Body. He says the Jewish man symbolizes the Anointed Christians.  A big difference. 

 

 

Matthew 24:40  In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Now the GB has blatantly distorted Jesus' words about what it means to help Jesus' brothers, the anointed. GB outright discourages brothers and sisters to give special attention to the anointed, except for themselves. That can not be right. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

3 minutes ago, Thinking said:

If they need punishing or discipline ...off course..just as you and I....in fact they will carry a heavier punishment as they are teachers....but that is in his jurisdiction to decide..not yours or mine...keep in mind....

Aaron built the golden calf and did not even take responsibility for what he did but conviemtly  blamed the people....what he did was massively wrong ...yet when Moses came down from the mountain ...he still offered a chance for all this committing spiritual idolatry another chance by telling all those who stood for Jehovah to stand by his side.

Arrons  life was spared because he did...but more out of consideration for his brother Moses...nevertheless Moses/Jesus offered all those worshipping the Golden calf another chance at repentance...obviously a lot never took that.

The point being...the second man in charge did commit idolatry...yet was spared..it’s food for thought..

I would have thought that if the GB are of the anointed class then they should have a much closer and different relationship with God. They would be sons of God with a view to the inheritance.  Therefore if they deliberately disobey God, or Jesus Christ who now has that authority, then they would be classed as the Wicked slave, that Jesus said would be thrown out in the street. 

Remember that the GB call themselves the 'Faithful and discreet slave', they have given themselves that title.... Luke 14 v 11 clearly warns against anyone exalting themselves. But the GB have put the others of the anointed in a lower position than themselves, only exalting the GB consisting of 8 men.  Please remember that at one time the Organisation counted ALL of the Anointed as the Faithful slave. 

The JW Organisation is supposed to be superior to the Nation of Israel in as much as people join JW Org voluntarily, whereas in the Nation of Israel, people were born into it and had no choice. So each individual in the JW Org should prove that they have the right heart condition. However the GB are proving themselves to be in opposition to God, or at least sinning against God.  Is that sinning against the spirit ?  I really don't know.  

As for me judging them, I think we all have to make a decision about the GB and about the JW Org, otherwise how would we know whether it is right to serve God through Christ and through the JW Org or not.  We could just as well serve through the Pope if we followed blindly.  Yes a bit extreme but it makes the point i think. 

[Kosonen]

 The GB are so similar to the religious leaders in Jesus' time. And they were responsible for the spiritual feeding in the Synagogues and at the Temple. But John the Baptist and Jesus told the people what was wrong in their teaching and behavior. But the religious leaders, the High Priest, the Pharisees, the Saddusees, the scribes etc. refused to repent and correct their ways. And became seriously guilty.

Many anointed brothers and sisters have written letters to the GB and tried to correct them, but until now they do not listen. Will they ever listen and repent? Or will they follow the course of the religious leaders of Jesus' time? We will see.

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I would have thought that if the GB are of the anointed class then they should have a much closer and different relationship with God. They would be sons of God with a view to the inheritance.  Therefore if they deliberately disobey God, or Jesus Christ who now has that authority, then they would be classed as the Wicked slave, that Jesus said would be thrown out in the street. 

Remember that the GB call themselves the 'Faithful and discreet slave', they have given themselves that title.... Luke 14 v 11 clearly warns against anyone exalting themselves. But the GB have put the others of the anointed in a lower position than themselves, only exalting the GB consisting of 8 men.  Please remember that at one time the Organisation counted ALL of the Anointed as the Faithful slave. 

The JW Organisation is supposed to be superior to the Nation of Israel in as much as people join JW Org voluntarily, whereas in the Nation of Israel, people were born into it and had no choice. So each individual in the JW Org should prove that they have the right heart condition. However the GB are proving themselves to be in opposition to God, or at least sinning against God.  Is that sinning against the spirit ?  I really don't know.  

As for me judging them, I think we all have to make a decision about the GB and about the JW Org, otherwise how would we know whether it is right to serve God through Christ and through the JW Org or not.  We could just as well serve through the Pope if we followed blindly.  Yes a bit extreme but it makes the point i think. 

The GB have stated in true February 2016/2017 ..not sure of the dates ...that the FDS has not been appointed as of yet....and are yet to be judged...

They then went on in the last half of that article to state why they feel it is them and why they  feel Jesús will find in favour of them.....rather presumptuous of them I thought ....

Again..David was annoited and deliberately disobeyd Jehovah ...for his own selfish gain....just because you are annoited...or have been invited does not mean you are perfect...and besides many are invited and few chosen....

what would you have done if you knew about David’s sin....how would you have sorted that out????

 

[Anna]

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Anna you are not blind to all the problems in the Org are you ? 

The way Child Abuse is dealt with, needs sorting out. NOT just on paper, anyone can write a list of what procedure should be, and then secretly do it a different way. You yourself have given me instances of this...... 

The GB stating that they themselves (only those 8 men) are the faithful and discreet slave. When Jesus said to his apostles that one should not put himself above another. Yet the GB do put themselves above the others of the Anointed. 

The false teachings, which they pretend are mistakes. The changing of meaning of scriptures, by the GB, to suit their own needs or wants.  Surely everyone knows about Page 9 in the Revelation book, where the GB / writers say " It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infallible." Huh ? On the one hand they say they are the Faithful slave of God, giving the right food at the right time. Then on the other hand they say 'But we could be wrong'  Why would they be wrong if they claim that the information comes from God ?  Of course they have been proved wrong, so I think it proves my point, they are not receiving the info' from God.

So, the GB need to be cleaned out, removed by God or Jesus Christ. As Jesus said, the wicked slave would be thrown out in the streets. 

Information from God's Kingdom Rules book :-

The Bible students in 1883 knew Christmas was wrong but they continued to celebrate Christmas until 1926, so deliberate sin was committed against God.

In 1895 Bro Russell commented that smoking was wrong, using scripture to back up what he said. But smoking was allowed to continue within the JW Org until 1973. Over 75 years of deliberate sin by those 'in charge' of the Bible Students/JW Org. 

And they seem to boast about it in that book as if making the changes was so good. Yes good, but much too late, as it should have been done as soon as they realised.

Can you not see the pattern ? The GB / Org 'bosses' know about things much sooner than they let the congregants know.  Not giving the right food at the proper time... Could it be that they were /are frightened of losing so many people from the Org if they do things properly. 

Carry that through to the Child Abuse / Pedophilea problem and once again it can clearly be seen that the GB and HQ's in every country knew about the serious problem of Child Abuse in many many congregations, but deliberately held back on taking positive action. Most active JW's never knew for years about it, and many still don't know. Once again deliberate sinning was / is taking place.

Shunning. This one is a mixed bag of course. But if it leads to people being left completely alone and depressed then i would think it was not God's or Jesus Christ's intentions. It should be made clear when a person is 'no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses', whether they were disfellowshipped or 'resigned', and whether the person sinned against God or not. No personal details need to be given but the congregation should know if they are allowed to talk to the person or not. Many congregants unfortunately will not think for themselves, they need guidance or 'approval' from the elders.

Quite funny that the Org prints this magazine 'Return to Jehovah', but no one is supposed to even talk to ex JW's. 

When the bible reminds us 'not to forsake the gathering of ourselves together' I don't think it mean in such a 'military way'. 

I understand your points and you have expressed them very well. I will address each point you raised separately, but first I just want to mention a few general things which have perhaps shaped the perception of people like you and me. I grew up in the "truth" in the early 80's when the GB was mostly an anonymous mystery, at least to many who were living outside of America. The "truths" people like me assimilated during those years were turned into dogmatic doctrines by people like me. We always talked starting a phrase with "we KNOW....." as if we could never make a mistake. We had a general attitude of superiority. WE had the truth and therefor WE were somehow better than other people. WE had an answer for "everything".

And then came the age of the internet. It was a kind of "Internet enlightenment". It had been around for a while before that, but soon everybody had access to it, and was using it. Information that the ordinary person wouldn't have had before, became available to them at the touch of a button. There were things that were "discovered" by the ordinary brother and sister that were there all along, but that were only known by more prominent brothers and sisters, which included those involved with Bethel, but also ordinary brothers and sisters which happened to live closer to the "source" . But now the ordinary brother came to know things that at times "shocked" him, because in their little personal world they had built a picture, but that picture wasn't always correct. As I mentioned, dogmatic opinions on various subjects were formed, which actually were not intended to be understood that way. Here is an example of what I mean; I am sure you know of instances yourself, where a elder giving a talk would  expound on something he felt strongly about. A kind of "pet" subject of his. Most of the time the audience would take what he said as gospel truth, and talk about it like it was fact and part and parcel of "official" teachings. But all it actually was, was the brothers opinion. This happened many times  in the days of only a brief outline of a talk, giving the speaker much freedom to practically say anything he wanted.

A classic and famous example is that of Charles Sinutko giving the talk about 1975. He wasn't just an elder, but a district overseer, and he gave that misleading talk in front of an audience of thousands. Similar talks were given around the world no doubt. I was too young at the time but @Outta Here remembers such talks, and also the almost "fanatical" approach of some in the congregations. Was this all the GB's doing? It wasn't, but it shows the freedom that existed with regard to expressing ones opinion in an "official" setting, by means of talks etc. As you probably know, now there are strict outlines for talks. Not only that, but elders are instructed to Only give the Bible's advice when serving in a shepherding or judicial capacity, and never give their personal opinions. I am sure this new approach became a necessity because of the damage personal opinions had caused in the past.

One I want to focus on specifically  is the handling of child abuse. The congregation was well equipped to prevent child abuse on the surface. But it was all contingent on members actually reading and applying what was in the publications that discussed those issues. The JW congregation has always been very strict on upholding moral standards. In comparison, the rest of the world was in a moral decline (think "free love" that started in the 60's) and with it no doubt came problems associated with loose morals. Secular authorities were ill equipped to handle accusations of rape and child sexual abuse, as you yourself can testify.  In this environment Elders were trying to handle something that was disgusting and shocking and should have never occurred in the Christian congregation in the first place! Some Elders got confused and misapplied WT 1973/11/15 "question from readers" regarding the application of 1 Cor 6:1-7, and the interpretation of 1Timothy 5:19.  Many Elders were stuck between a rock and a hard place with regard to reporting to the police because of the way the police handled (or not handled) these cases, and because many victims and their families did not want to report to the police. It was almost like an attitude of: "this is our private problem, and we will handle it as our private problem". 

Finally today, secular authorities are educated and equipped enough to address these issues properly, and I would say we are at the pinnacle of "enlightenment" with regard to CSA, at least in the western world. Victims are at last able to come forward and be heard. Abusers are being tried and punished. This has also spilled into historic sexual abuse of women as in the #metoo brigade. BUT despite all this, CSA and the abuse of women is as rampant as ever unfortunately....

You have a good heart John and I feel you have unnecessarily thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

But I do want to address those issues individually that you mentioned, but I will have to do that tomorrow now as I am running out of time and have to go and cook dinner....

 

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

 The GB are so similar to the religious leaders in Jesus' time. And they were responsible for the spiritual feeding in the Synagogues and at the Temple. But John the Baptist and Jesus told the people what was wrong in their teaching and behavior. But the religious leaders, the High Priest, the Pharisees, the Saddusees, the scribes etc. refused to repent and correct their ways. And became seriously guilty.

Many anointed brothers and sisters have written letters to the GB and tried to correct them, but until now they do not listen. Will they ever listen and repent? Or will they follow the course of the religious leaders of Jesus' time? We will see.

At a Circuit assembly we had a Bethel brother admit a number had been hurt by the organization...and were justified in their pain..he admited  we had problems with in the org..and even tho they are trying to fix them..he admitted they probably won’t  be fixed before the end comes....

when Jesus cleaned out the temple with whip etc...at no time did his apostles or any followers join him in doing that...so it will be when he returns....

He allowed Solomon and Saul to rule as kings for a long time after their falling away...

you honestly think any man..annoited or not can do what belongs To Christ...look at the pattern of his people....it’s not hard to work out....

There is a reason for him allowing things to be as they are.....

[Thinking]

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Unfortunately, you will not find the exact wording you are looking for in scripture. We could infer as I mentioned before on how to apply scripture for certain situations. I would assume you would know this as a former member. This, of course, its with the assumption you received the proper bible training.

 

This is why scripture reflects on the proper teaching for our children. It is the parent’s responsibility to not only teach their children in the Lord's way but also with what harm that can be had around them. In today's society, we can’t always trust our own family much less a stranger.

 

What safeguards has a parent instilled in their children? The Watchtower throughout the decades has given many examples of how to safeguard our children. Proverbs 22:6

 

What more can be done? The point to these is being diminished by 30-40-year-old claims that have surfaced to extend profit to the courts and lawyers. Profiteering, cashing in. Not really caring for the victim, but what the victim can bring forth to success.

 

How can scripture help parents?

 

Matthew 18:10

 

“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.

 

Matthew 18:6

 

But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

 

 

This defines the role of the parents to safeguard their children. Why doesn’t scripture specifically talk directly to children? It should be obvious to everyone. They are vulnerable and LEARNING. Children shouldn’t have a need to defend themselves when the mature ones (parents) have that responsibility.

 

When my father saw, a brother talking to my sister in the kingdom hall, he would go to be part of that conversation. Once again, family values. If a parent sees an older brother talking to their younger children, are the parents supposed to trust, or play defensive? Christian parents somehow think the Elders are supposed to play referee with all their local congregants.

 

Where are the parents in all of this? Aside from wanting to live a carefree life, sometimes with song and dance, what prevents parents from fulfilling their duties.

 

2 Thessalonians 3:3

 

But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

 

This is indeed what is going on. The parents washed their hands like Pilate and assume no responsibility. They want to blame the GB, the Elders, the church. Everyone except themselves.

 

Activism from the outside or the inside by members that shouldn’t call themselves members anymore will not change the responsibility the parent has. If the government can’t do it, then why should the church. What the church can do, is continue to show areas of concern and print articles, kept their members alert so they can best handle their responsibility as the Watchtower has for decades.

 

Isaiah 49:25

 

For thus says the Lord: “Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken, and the prey of the tyrant be rescued, for I will contend with those who contend with you, and I will save your children.

 

Romans 8:28

 

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

 

Now, what is the responsibility of the church?  

 

James 1:27

 

Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

 

 

The GB is not there to do the parents job. They have a specific role. Its to dispense spiritual food. They have given themselves to Christ as an example. What example are Watchtower members showing God, they are unified. None.

 

Hey Brother Billie..your way out on this....it is undeniable if you watched the ARC...we as a people were found to have faulty policies...that’s a fact..we were forced to ammend them.

Kids suffered because elders did not report or advise them to go to authorities...we tried to handle it in house....because Jehovah’s name was involved...some of these kids were shoved aside by their spiritual elders...come on brother..we have to accept responsibility where we were wrong....

otherwise the Catholic Church can lay it all down on the parents as well...

we as a people would not handle cases of abuse as we once did....but back then we did shove it under the carpet in a number of cases.

The child suffered...having said that many were handled well as could be...but we dont hear about them.

The GB made the Policies brother...and now have amended the policies..

Keep in minds for those who will jump on this as proof we are not his people......the Catholic Church and Anglican  Chirch has a percentage of well over 50% ..I forget the actual number but I’ve quoted on the low side....Jehovah witnesses had a ratio of 1%

so this needs to be kept in perspective...

It was a era of naivety on our parts ..as parents and probably elders as well...it was a different time ....we trusted to much....but then again the apostles didn’t recognize Judas when he was amongst them either...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Witness]

19 hours ago, Thinking said:

but they didn’t leave the camp....they showed great faith that Moses would come back...and I’m sure many were very confused at that time....I too will wait for Jesus to come down from the mountain....and correct his people...

I know you must agree,  the camp of Israel under Moses’ direction is incomparable to the Watchtower organization, which is under the direction, not of Christ, but of uninspired men.   Moses was an inspired prophet, and relayed all of God’s decrees right to the people.  There is just no comparison. Those that made the golden calf were rebels of Moses, and who immediately lost their lives. Exod 32:25-27  The organization was introduced by Rutherford.  The organizational “decrees” came from his mouth.  Christ would have no reason to add to God’s decrees, since by his coming he fulfilled the law.  Matt 5:17-20  What further laws are needed?  The Pharisees felt there were many little nitpicking elements that had to be added to the law; and apparently, so do WT leaders. Isa 28:9-13; Matt 16:6-12; 15:7-9

Well, if you’re going to build a golden calf to lead the people, it must come with a new set of rules. It’s a small point, but I find it interesting that the Shepherd the Flock of God book uses the similar number format as the Bible.  In the index, “Apostasy 5:16”  It is worth turning to this “scripture” for their viewpoint.  

"When the people saw that Moses had not come down from the mountain but was staying there a long time, they gathered around Aaron and said to him, “We do not know what has happened to this man Moses, who led us out of Egypt; so make us a god to lead us.” Exod 32:1

“Let us discuss five things we must do to keep our zeal and to follow the lead of Jehovah’s organization. ws13 4/15 pp. 21-26

How many passed generations have been under the power and lead of the organization while still believing they worship only God?

"Beware of "organization." It is wholly unnecessary. The Bible rules will be the only rules you will need. Do not seek to bind others' consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God’s Word today, and so continue growing in the grace and knowledge and love day by day.  CT Russell, Zion's Watch Tower, Sept. 15, 1895, pg 216

Perhaps not the sisters you speak of, but what brought many JWs into the hands of terror?  It was the name that led them there; the image of a spirit-directed organization that determined their actions and worship. Rev 13:15,16  It is the name established by a man who instigated and built it; impressing upon his followers that the organization was a vital concept requiring one’s devotion and service.  Rutherford.  The man who initially tried to side with Hitler, by using lies.  https://www.jwfacts.com/pdf/letter-to-hitler.pdf

In spite of Russell’s quote, the golden calf began building with JWs’ valuables, at the organization’s early inception.  This calf is a beast that “kills” anyone who rejects it vocally, when wanting to serve ONLY God and Christ. Dan 3:17,18; Rev 13:11-17; Dan 3:28; Rev 12:11; 15:2-4   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Dan+3%3A17%2C18%3B+Rev+13%3A11-17%3B+Dan+3%3A28%3B+Rev+12%3A11%3B+15%3A2-4&version=NKJV

“Remember that he will save his Theocratic organization whom he here addresses, and so let our desire for safety and deliverance spur us to adhere tightly to the organization. w50 10/1 pp. 349-356

 ^“Do not follow other gods to serve and worship them; do not arouse my anger with what your hands have made. Then I will not harm you.”  “But you did not listen to me,” declares the Lord, “and you have aroused my anger with what your hands have made, and you have brought harm to yourselves.”  Jer 25:6,7

The Lord replied, “When the Egyptians, the Amorites, the Ammonites,the Philistines, ¹² the Sidonians, the Amalekites and the Maonitesoppressed you and you cried to me for help, did I not save you from their hands? ¹³ But you have forsaken me and served other gods, so I will no longer save you. ¹⁴ Go and cry out to the gods you have chosen. Let them save you when you are in trouble!”  Judges 10:11-14

Jesus is already correcting his people, if they willingly go to him for refinement and understanding of this unsettled time.      Matt 7:7,8; John 16:24; Rev 3:18

 

 

[Thinking]

Anyone who quotes pearl Doxcey as you have done ..is beyond understandimg  the big picture or Jehovah’s plan...sorry but I view you as a true apostate ...end of conversation !

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

Anyone who quotes pearl Doxcey as you have done ..is beyond understandimg  the big picture or Jehovah’s plan...sorry but I view you as a true apostate ...end of conversation !

I find it fascinating that the governing body can proclaim themselves as the only “faithful and discreet slave” belonging to Christ.  They can change doctrine and call it new light because their previous doctrine was a lie, although most JWs will not see it that way.   They authorize the elder body to judge Christ’s anointed servants as “dead”, because these servants know what they teach is a lie and refuse to swallow it. 

So, an anointed woman with spiritual insight reveals these lies, and why they are being uttered…and SHE is considered the apostate. 

It is equally fascinating that God has chosen a woman to stand up to these pompous men and their lies.  Tell me, is an apostate one who tells the truth and stands for God and Christ, or one who lies through his teeth and stands for an organization?

A Great Deception - 4womaninthewilderness

 

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

I find it fascinating that the governing body can proclaim themselves as the only “faithful and discreet slave” belonging to Christ.  They can change doctrine and call it new light because their previous doctrine was a lie, although most JWs will not see it that way.   They authorize the elder body to judge Christ’s anointed servants as “dead”, because these servants know what they teach is a lie and refuse to swallow it. 

So, an anointed woman with spiritual insight reveals these lies, and why they are being uttered…and SHE is considered the apostate. 

It is equally fascinating that God has chosen a woman to stand up to these pompous men and their lies.  Tell me, is an apostate one who tells the truth and stands for God and Christ, or one who lies through his teeth and stands for an organization?

A Great Deception - 4womaninthewilderness

 

Pearl has relayed to me personaly that she does not study the Bible as she does not have time..when some one writes to her and asks a question..she sits at the table with pen and paper and writes....she stated she does not even know what she has written a lot of the time...until she reads it.

Pearl is a kind woman..but she has been deceived and is promoting teachings inspired of demons...

She has built her own Golden calf And has her own following....many of these ex witnesses ...are either disfellowshipped or leave on their own accord...some have been genuinely hurt...others become puffed up with pride and so many become annoited...and have their own beliefs and teachings....and following ..

These ones live on forums and visit them all....trying to save witnesses...

 

 

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I suggest you revisit the ARC inquiry. I don’t need a way out when one of the victims was told by the Elders to contact the authorities and she refused. They were going to do it, and she begged them not to. Try reading the transcript of all the trial.

 

Brother Jackson submitted a good idea to the ARC that would make it easy for everyone to be on the same page. The Australian parliament didn’t agree through the ARC. As for the changes the Watchtower made, it was to comply with the new laws that were enacted by the Australian government.

 

Understand where countries like Australia, Canada, UK, and America stand with the UN as one of the worse democratic countries to have looked the other way. That's what these new laws were meant to address. The governments getting involved. The problem with that, people fail to see, in Australia, their own government-run detention centers are guilty of allowing child abuse, and they passed a law condemning whistleblowers with jail time. This included doctors and nurses. The same thing is seen in American detention centers. what then? Canadians fair no better. That just leaves the UK, until someone unmasks them.

You can’t have it both ways. So, let’s not shift the responsibilities just because they are convenient.

 

But why do we need the law of the land to tell us to do the right thing?