Stake or Cross? How did Jesus die? What proof do we have?

[Evacuated]

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Only Thomas' words in the Bible of course. But then you seem to be doubting God's word here.

If that is the extent of your understanding of God's word.......then I understand your position at last.

[JW Insider]

19 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:



It should be noted that none of the pictures you showed, not even this one of pagan Marsyas, were from sources giving evidence that Jesus died on an upright pole. I only mention this fact because some people might see such pictures and get a sense that there is historical evidence about an upright pole as a method for the execution of Jesus. It should probably also be noted that you have found no pictures of pagan persons on crosses prior to Christ, but have found several images of pagans on poles. Yet, these ideas about pagans and idolatry still seem to be the key to your complete rejection the earliest known evidence about the shape of the stauros upon which Jesus was executed. Of course, you have the right to accept or reject whatever evidence you wish on whatever grounds you wish. I'm just looking for the logic behind it.

19 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

We know the Romans were not the originators of the crucifixion, but they did perfect the manner of cruelty to be imposed on criminals and slaves.

You have used the term crucifixion to indicate execution on a traditional cross-shaped device. If this is what you mean, then who do you think originated crucifixion on such a device before the Romans? And for how many years, decades, centuries, etc., do you think these other persons were executing people on crosses before the Romans. Also, I note that you describe it as "cruelty imposed on criminals and slaves," which is true, but which appears to be at odds with the logic in the next statement:

19 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

We know, the original word for crucifixion that was added later to symbolize an honorable and victorious death by Jesus Christ to inspire all of Christianity, cannot determine the manner of his execution, by modern understanding of the classic Greek pale, plank.

Crucifixion itself was cruelty imposed on criminals/slaves, but you say the original word for it was added later to symbolize an honorable and victorious death. What was that original word that was added later? How original could it have been if it was added later?

19 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

We know the first rendering of a torture stake was hidden for a very long time by those that couldn’t accept the original word to be at odds with a Christian symbol adopted by ancient paganism for Christianity. A symbol of worship (Idolatry)

And now you say it was the first rendering of "torture stake" that wasn't available until a very long time later because it was hidden. Again, what was this first rendering and how could it have been first if it came along a very long time later after being hidden?

Because you are repeatedly using the term "we know" about all these points, I don't think you should have trouble answering any of the questions that come up about them.

19 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

      STRONGS NT 4716: σταυρός

σταυρός, σταυροῦ, ὁ (from ἵστημι (root sta); cf. Latin stauro, English staff (see Skeat, Etymological Dictionary, under the word); Curtius, § 216; Vanicek, p. 1126);
1. an upright stake, especially a pointed one (Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon).

And of course, you included the first definition as taken from classical Greek and "pagan" authors, but left off the second definition which aligns with the examples found in the Christian Greek Scriptures.

Here is definition 2 from STRONGS NT 4716:

2. a cross;
a. the well-known instrument of most cruel and ignominious punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals, particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces, at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves; cf. Winers RWB, under the word Kreuzigung; Merz in Herzog edition 1 ((cf. Schaff-Herzog) also Schultze in Herzog edition 2), under the word Kreuz; Keim, iii., p. 409ff. (English translation, vi. 138; BB. DD., see under the words, Cross, Crucifixion; O. Zöckler, Das Kreuz Christi (Gütersloh, 1875); English translation, Lond. 1878; Fulda, Das Kreuz u. d. Kreuzigung (Bresl. 1878); Edersheim, Jesus the Messiah, ii. 582ff). This horrible punishment the innocent Jesus also suffered: Matthew 27:32, 40, 42; Mark 15:21, 30, 32; Luke 23:26; John 19:17, 19, 25, 31; Colossians 2:14; Hebrews 12:2; θάνατος σταυροῦ, Philippians 2:8; τό αἷμα τοῦ σταυροῦ, blood shed on the cross; Colossians 1:20.
b. equivalent to the crucifixion which Christ underwent: Galatians 5:11 (on which see σκάνδαλον, under the end); Ephesians 2:16; with the addition of τοῦ Χριστοῦ, 1 Corinthians 1:17; the saving power of his crucifixion, Philippians 3:18 (on which see ἐχθρός, at the end); Galatians 6:14; τῷ σταυρῷ τοῦ Χριστοῦ διώκεσθαι, to encounter persecution on account of one's avowed belief in the saving efficacy of Christ's crucifixion, Galatians 6:12; ὁ λόγος ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ, the doctrine concerning the saving power of the death on the cross endured by Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:18. The judicial usage which compelled those condemned to crucifixion themselves to carry the cross to the place of punishment (Plutarch, de sara numinis vindict. c. 9; Artemidorus Daldianus, oneir. 2, 56, cf. John 19:17), gave rise to the proverbial expression αἴρειν or λαμβάνειν or βαστάζειν τόν σταυρόν αὐτοῦ, which was usually used by those who, on behalf of God's cause, do not hesitate cheerfully and manfully to bear persecutions, troubles, distresses — thus recalling the fate of Christ and the spirit in which he encountered it (cf. Bleek, Synop. Erkl. der drei ersten Evangg. i, p. 439f): Matthew 10:38; Matthew 16:24; Mark 8:34; Mark 10:21 (R L in brackets); Mark 15:21; Luke 9:23; Luke 14:27.

[JW Insider]

19 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

even though Lucian of Samosata is the one who referenced the shape of a cross, while Greek philosopher like Homer used the word Stavros as a surname for Christos.

A Greek philosopher like Homer? Does your source even know who Homer was supposed to have been? Does he or she know that works attributed to Homer were supposed to have been written around 800 B.C.E.? Some say he might have actually been a witness to the Trojan War dated to around 1200 B.C.E. How likely is it, then, that he used "Stavros" (stauros) as a surname for Christos?

20 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Unfortunately, this was lost in the translation in modern time, since Stavros means “crown wreath” a direct image of the thorn crown placed on Jesus.

This was covered already. If your source had done real research in Greek, they would not have made such a mistake in thinking that Stauros means "crown wreath." Stephan can mean that, but not Stauros or Stavros -- the word meaning "cross," or person's name meaning "cross."

20 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

This became the fundamental bases for the Latin Cross. If this is accepted, then, the cross ancient writers were referring to was the thorn crown (Stavros)

It can't be accepted by anyone who has done any research or study of the facts. Stavros is not related to thorn crown. Stavros is stauros, the upright pole or cross shaped object for execution. Some of these poles or crosses might have had an extra piece called a "horn" or "thorn" added to them, (the sedile) but this is unrelated to a crown wreath, or a crown of thorns.

20 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

We know the cross hire (+) is most likely indicative to the Sun God and played no role in the crucifixion of Christ.

This is like saying that the "|" is a pagan Baal and phallic symbol and played no role in the crucifixion of Christ.

20 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The TAU can be traced back to the Phoenician letter taw (X). This became the letter (T) in Roman time. If the T was used as a cross, the crossbeam most of the time would be secured to the convicted either by nails or rope. The crossbeam would be stretched to the back and shoulders of the convicted. This would allow to simply hoist the person to a prepared Crux simplex.

Not sure why you added this. It's true, but it appears to be evidence in favor of a major feature of the scriptural account. Thanks for the support, even if inadvertent.

[Manuel Boyet Enicola]

Hi folks. Just tuned in late, but this is how I see it: 

1.  Jesus carried the stauros or stake. 

2.  Both of his HANDS were nailed to it while grasping it, a meter or a yard apart.  That is, nails were driven from the back, not from the palms.  

3.  He was then HANGED on a stake, creating a letter "T" cross.  Probably the stauros (patibulum) had a notch that would fit nicely at the top of the already upright stake. 

4. The feet were then nailed or tied tight to prevent a further escape. 

With the above, we can reconcile the following: 

1.  Jesus was nailed to a STAKE (stauros). 

2.  He was HANGED upon a tree. 

3.  With arms outstretched and gripping the 'cross beam', he could last for hours until exhaustion did its job. Otherwise, any healthy person hanged with both hands tied together won't last an hour owing to a compressed lungs.

4.  Finally, we get to understand the implication of John 21:18,19 regarding 'arms outstretched' and the 'manner of death' mentioned. 

Cheers everyone!

 

[Anna]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

2 hours ago, Anna said:

by Romans who started crucifying people as a punishment for their scenes.

Pretty rough on actors, I'd say. I guess everyone's a critic.

I didn't even notice that part of the quote, I read it really quickly. Just shows how easy it is for someone not to translate very well, or whoever wrote that website is not a native English speaker. I noticed some more "errors" such as ; " He [Stavros]  is very good in hands and he is usually an exceptionally good husband and friend".

They must have meant crimes. I wonder if Greek for crime is similar to scene in English......after all, there was a lot of crime scenes in Greek plays....

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

3 hours ago, Anna said:

It was just now while reading this it suddenly dawned on me that the name Stavros must be connected to Stauros. And sure enough  HERE  it says this about the origin of the name: “Name Stavros is a rather common Greek male name and as we said comes from the Greek word “stavros” which means cross. Of course in the ancient years the word cross was referring to the item of this shape, with no political or religious meaning.

Of course!

I submit for your inspection the name of the fictional arch criminal and nemesis of James Bond, 007 and the British Secret Service .... Ernst Stavro Blofeld.

From Wikipedia:

" Character

Ian Fleming includes information about Blofeld's background in his novel Thunderball. According to the novel, Blofeld was born on 28 May 1908 (which is also Fleming's birthday) in Gdingen, Imperial Germany (now Gdynia, Poland); his father Ernst George Blofeld was Polish, and his mother Maria Stavro Michelopoulos was Greek, hence the well-known Greek name Stavro ..."

 

"

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Of course this brings up the raging and long term theological debate as the whether or not Sean Connery is the only REAL James Bond.

[Anna]

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Of course this brings up the raging and long term theological debate as the whether or not Sean Connery is the only REAL James Bond.

I guess you say "theological" because some women think Sean Connery is a god? Anyway, I think the real Bond was Roger Moore. Sean is far to Scottish for an Englishman like Bond.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Roger Moore?

Roger Moore!

ROGER MOORE!!

ROGER MOOOOOORRREEEE!!

Heresy Detected .mp4

[Anna]

3 hours ago, Manuel Boyet Enicola said:

1.  Jesus carried the stauros or stake. 

2.  Both of his HANDS were nailed to it while grasping it, a meter or a yard apart

Wait a minute, I thought Simon of Cy·reʹne carried the torture stake

[Anna]

7 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Roger Moore?

Roger Moore!

ROGER MOORE!!

ROGER MOOOOOORRREEEE!!

 

Heresy Detected .mp4

 

 

 

 

I guess you don't agree with me, lol

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

A REAL JAMES BOND would not have three nipples as Roger Moore did in "The Man with the Golden Gun", pretending to be Francisco Scaramanga.

There is just so much a REAL 007 would do for "King and Country", and that does NOT include a third nipple.

I mean ....

REALLY!