Stake or Cross? How did Jesus die? What proof do we have?

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, Outta Here said:

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

who are firmly holding their wrong positions

I appreciate the point you are making here, however that is not the one I am making. My "opinion" on the matter in question is simply that, my "opinion". It is not "wrong" because it cannot be proven either way. It is just my choice of a particular alternative.

Your point takes the matter further in that you are making a judgement of what another thinks is "true" to be actually "wrong". That is a completely different arena.

Please do take in consideration reality about the fact, how not only people who oppose to WT doctrines are the one who talking about WT wrongs. This same WT periodically talking about own previous "errors". That says, how i am not the only one who "making judgement of what another thinks" is true or wrong. WT scholars of today/present time "judging" WT scholars of past time. By doing so they annuls past hard working of dedicate brothers. How they doing this? By introducing "new teachings"!

To using  your expression and way of logic; Both group of WT scholars has done nothing else but showed  an opinion on some, on many issues. Both group are not making any "true or wrong". They just "rowing" .... as You or Me doing now. ;))))) 

And yes, WT also "making a judgement of what another thinks as "true"", and announcing publicly how those "another" are apostate, pagans, false Christendom etc.   

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

WT also "making a judgement of what another thinks as "true"",

Everyone in the world makes judgements about what another thinks is true at times, even of themselves. Same response as earlier,

11 hours ago, Outta Here said: That is a completely different arena!!

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

11 hours ago, Outta Here said:

This hypothesis is based on the false premise that the use of a two beam cross has been established as a fact which, patently, it has  not.

We do not reject fact in preference to fiction, that is just the allegation of opposers. But we do reserve the right to support an alternative, where such exists, regardless of it being popularly accepted or not. When possibilities are established as facts, we will adjust our thinking. This is something which is not always the case with opposers, and is the subject of much of their crticism.

But you do seem to accept putting false information in the way of a picture in a book. A picture which goes totally against scripture 

[JOHN BUTLER]

18 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Sometimes ... the only way to stay sane, is to quit caring so much.

About what ? 

[JW Insider]

On 11/17/2018 at 12:45 AM, BillyTheKid46 said:

We know that in the original language Sturous (Homeric) meant a single pole (upright stake) Palisade, fencing, or tree (xylon). Earlier versions defined it as a plank. As in walk the plank in Pirate times, bearing your own cross. 

Not so sure about this. First of all, it was never Sturous, but σταυρός / σταυροῦ which is transliterated as stauros, staurou, stauro, or sometimes stavros, stavrou, stavro. But why do you say "earlier versions" defined it as plank? Earlier version of Greek before Homer? And are you really implying the word "plank" as a punishment? 

Speaking of pirates and ships, however, this mainsail is the shape that some Greek / Roman writers described as the STAUROS:

One quote offered in Leolaia, p.5, is the following from about 160 C.E.:

Artemidorus Daldianus, a pagan soothsayer who flourished in the second century A.D. Sometime around A.D. 160, he wrote a dream interpretation manual named Oneiro critica. In one passage (2,53), Artemidorus remarked:

Being crucified is auspicious for all seafarers. For the σταυρος [stauros], like a ship, is made of wood and nails, and the ship's mast resembles a σταυρος.[stauros]

 

 

[Anna]

At last we have joined the land of the civilized again! I sure hope that our "flight" may not occur in the winter time 😨

So drum roll.............

The etymology of stauros: The R. S. P. Beekes, Etymological Dictionary of Greek, Brill, 2009, says on page 601: The word stauros comes from the verb ἵστημι (histēmi: "straighten up", "stand"), which in turn comes from the Proto-Indo-European root *steh2-u- "pole",[1] related to the root *steh2- "to stand, to set"

Lucian of Samosata, (circa 125-180 AD) a satirical writer in the 2nd century mentions the word stauros with its' various forms such as: Anestavrostho, stavromenos, and stavrosi etc. which  translators have translated as “let him be crucified” “crucified” and “crucifixion” respectively.

ἀνεσταυρώσθω   (Anestavrostho - let him be crucified)

σταυρωμένος (stavromenos – crucified)

σταύρωση (stavrosi- crucifixion)

In his writing about Prometheus he apparently gives us an idea of what he thought the stauros looked like:

Hermes: This, Hephaestus, is the Caucasus, to which it is our painful duty to nail our companion. We have now to select a suitable crag, free from snow, on which the chains will have a good hold, and the prisoner will hang in all publicity.

Hephaestus: True. It will not do to fix him too low down, or these men of his might come to their maker's assistance; nor at the top, where he would be invisible from the earth. What do you say to a middle course? Let him hang over this precipice, with his arms stretched across from crag to crag.

Hermes: The very thing. Steep rocks, slightly overhanging, inaccessible on every side; no foothold but a mere ledge, with scarcely room for the tips of one's toes; altogether a sweet spot for a crucifixion. Now, Prometheus, come and be nailed up; there is no time to lose.

Prometheus: Nay, hear me; Hephaestus! Hermes! I suffer injustice: have compassion on my woes!

Hermes: In other words, disobey orders, and promptly be gibbeted in your stead! Do you suppose there is not room on the Caucasus to peg out a couple of us? Come, your right hand! clamp it down, Hephaestus, and in with the nails; bring down the hammer with a will. Now the left; make sure work of that too.--So!--The eagle will shortly be here, to trim your liver; so ingenious an artist is entitled to every attention.

This website shows the Greek version with the English translation. Unfortunately I wanted to go to the next page as well and then couldn’t go back because I had reached my limit for pages (which seems to be one (!). So don’t make the same mistake as me, unless you want to subscribe.

https://www.loebclassics.com/view/lucian-prometheus/1915/pb_LCL054.241.xml

------------------------------------------------

The Greek playwright Aeschylus (circa 525 -456 BCE) wrote (supposedly) the original play Prometheus Bound* and does not mention a stauros but that doesn’t change the idea that stauros could have been a stake with a cross beam as per Lucian’s satirical interpretation of the Prometheus mythology/legend. In one of his other writings "the death of Peregrine" he mentions the stauros with relation to Jesus: "Peregrine, all this time, was making quite an income on the strength of his bondage; money came pouring in. You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.

 

So the questions are: Where did Lucian get his idea for the shape of the stauros?

Or was it translation bias? Or tampering with the original writing? Or were people already executed on a cross beam in the 2nd Century as opposed much later (4th century)?

You might think of other questions....

 

*Prometheus Bound - Aeschylus

"But forcibly to bind a brother God, In chains, in this deep chasm raked by all storms........In bonds of brass not easy to be loosed, Nailing thee to this crag where no wight dwells"

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/aesch/promet.htm

 

 

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I recall you mentioned something about getting an MA on theology. You will find in your course of historical linguistic studies, there is only one way to define stauros.

A certain Allen Smith has stated here that he has two PhD's in theology, and when answering further questions about it, he confirmed that at least one of his multiple PhD's is in the area of Theology. I have never mentioned any similar specific degrees, except to say that I got a bachelor's degree in Computer Science after leaving Bethel. I do not have an MA in Theology or anything like that. My wife does have an MA degree is in Linguistics, but I don't remember ever mentioning it.

I have read the writings of persons with both an MA and PhD in Theology, and all of them who have studied the historical use of "stauros" have made it very clear that there is certainly NOT only one way to define stauros.

Also, you would be claiming that the Watchtower publications are wrong, too, when they claim that the word "stauros" could refer to a plain pole, a stake or a cross:

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Typo, I’m sure you not going to relate to your own typo’s when it is done.

I didn't know for sure if it was a typo. I knew it was factually wrong, but thought it might be from whatever source you got your information. In fact, the majority of your research is wrong, especially when it referred to Greek definitions. And it couldn't all be typos. Here was another example:

17 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Unfortunately, this was lost in the translation in modern time, since Stavros means “crown wreath” a direct image of the thorn crown placed on Jesus. John 19:2  This became the fundamental bases for the Latin Cross. If this is accepted, then, the cross ancient writers were referring to was the thorn crown (Stavros) the cross that Jesus bear John 19:17, and not a, cross that he was executed on.

Your source that said "Stavros" meant "thorn crown" was wrong. Probably mixed it up with "stephanos." Stavros is just another way to transliterate "stauros."

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But you do seem to accept putting false information in the way of a picture in a book. A picture which goes totally against scripture 

You do not have a truth by which you are able to define what is false in this matter.

[JOHN BUTLER]

19 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

You do not have a truth by which you are able to define what is false in this matter.

Only Thomas' words in the Bible of course. But then you seem to be doubting God's word here.

Holes in the hands where the nails passed through. 

[Anna]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Your source that said "Stavros" meant "thorn crown" was wrong.

While vacationing one year in Greece we got stuck in Athens for a couple of days waiting for our friends who were arriving by car from central Europe. In the meantime we decided to do some sightseeing and while doing our touristy thing we got joined by a jolly and friendly young Greek man. This was quite a long time ago, before the days of paranoia, plus my mum and I were rather laid back. Anyway, this young man, in his late teens or early twenties, decided he was going to show us around. I won’t go into detail, he did a great job, (although he smoked like a chimney), and like practically every Greek I have ever heard of was called Stavros. It was just now while reading this it suddenly dawned on me that the name Stavros must be connected to Stauros. And sure enough  HERE  it says this about the origin of the name: “Name Stavros is a rather common Greek male name and as we said comes from the Greek word “stavros” which means cross. Of course in the ancient years the word cross was referring to the item of this shape, with no political or religious meaning. The cross was used by barbarians and then by Romans who started crucifying people as a punishment for their scenes. The cross became a sacred item and symbol for Christianity when Christ was crucified on it by the Romans. The Greek Orthodox Church celebrates the name Stavros in memory of those important moments for Christianity on September 14th, the day of the Holy Cross".

I don’t know how that claim can be made “that in ancient years the word cross was referring to the item of this shape” when the etymology of that word is said to originate from  ἵστημι histēmi: meaning "straighten up", "stand" . (Besides, excuse the smuttiness, I think if I was a guy I’d rather be likened to an upright pole than some other shape).  On the other hand, an upright pole or stake doesn't necessarily have to exclude some other piece of wood attached to it, if the main part is the upright stake.  I mean when the Bible talks about stauros and if it had a cross beam, would it then have to call it "a stauros with another piece of wood horizontally attached at the top of it" ? As everyone knows, the meanings of words change through the centuries, even just decades. eg. gay meant happy not that long ago, now it means homosexual. Hypothetically it could be difficult for someone who discovered a text 2,000 years from now, to know what the author was speaking about if he wrote about a "gay couple". Were the couple happy, or were they homosexual?.....In the same token, was it a single upright stake, or a stake with a cross beam? Sorry, I think I'm just rambling....

 

 

[JW Insider]

8 minutes ago, Anna said:

by Romans who started crucifying people as a punishment for their scenes.

Pretty rough on actors, I'd say. I guess everyone's a critic.