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Sam Herd Compares Shunning your own Children to Casting out Demons.

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1 hour ago, AllenSmith34 said:

The word “SHUN” is an antagonistic word. It only has true meaning in a worldly society that doesn’t understand between having people sin to a point, it merits scriptural discipline. Keeping the congregation clean is certainly NOT shunning. Within that word, you have different variations to suit the needs of individuals, and families. A DF’d family member will not receive scriptural enlightenment if that person continues in their worldly ways. What would be the point to accept the behavior of those that go against Gods laws? 1 Corinthians 5:11-13

 

What love for thy brother does one show when human intervention is blinded by sympathy rather than have your brother change course and repent? Hebrews 10:27-29

 

Those that think it’s heartless, reject Gods purpose for correcting humanity to a more disciplined unit of faithful Christians. What’s the advantage to stay complacent? Humanity would have learned nothing from Christ and millennia of suffering.

 

What people seem to forget, with our personal human emotion, we are responsible to God himself in everything we do? If we are subject to discipline, we brought that upon ourselves. Regardless of how personal one might feel. EXCLUSIVE devotion is demanded by God for a true Christian.

 

Does that mean, there won’t be certain communication with a DF’d member, of course not, there will be some reasonable kind of communication that doesn’t affect an active member from causing their congregation to suffer as a unit.

 

Therefore, the optics of the word SHUN is wrongfully applied by opposers. A father and son construction team won’t find themselves at odds when it comes to, work. What they will find at odds is if the son is DF’d, and he wishes his father, listen to him trying to undermine the fathers Christianity. At that point, the father would do right to distance himself from the son.

 

This scenario can be applied to many conditions. 2 Corinthians 6:14 Does that mean some brothers STOP communicating with certain family members? YES! Depending on what kind of culture we were brought up with, a father and mother might never talk to a daughter or a son that has become gay or lesbian. That’s a PERSONAL CHOICE they have made. Because their culture might be strong enough to reject such a change. Therefore, how can a child that has made such a change, not influence the daily Christian life of a faithful member, if the parents see God’s law broken by their children’s action? 1 Corinthians 6:18

 

How about alcoholism, drug addiction, kleptomania. How many here have invited such a person to their home. Especially a home where there are children and have no worries that these people won’t be a bad influence or steal something to continue with their addiction. Even if it’s a family member.

 

How about hanging around with people that are guilty of adultery, fornication. Having extramarital affairs. What good will come of it, if someone decides, that’s an exciting lifestyle? Who wins then?

 

Therefore, understand what the parameters are with the word SHUN, that will benefit you, and allow you to see things more clearly, instead of talking points with personal stories that have no relation to the word honesty.

 

Agree if prostitution, spousal abuse, child abuse, thief, murderer, reviler etc. seems reasonable, enough not to have people removed to keep a congregation clean. Of all the listed possibilities, which one can be acceptable because human nature dictates it? 1 Corinthians 5:11

 

This is what the world offers, and it’s simple to succumb to its influence. It goes beyond what the word SHUN is to people that think there is a middle ground because human emotion demands it. 1 John 2:15-17

 

Contrary to popular belief, no priest can absolve you from sin on Sunday so people can have a fresh start on Monday. Therefore, where does the real love for thy brother lay, if thy brother refuses to repent? 2 Peter 2:20-22 what will be gained by a mistaken sympathy of your fellow man that has known God and rejected him?

 

Therefore, no one can say, it isn’t out of the ordinary that some cultures SHUN people or family members out of their own volition without there being any scriptural application attached.

 

No misinformation or mischaracterization will EVER change that!

 

Therefore, certain courts are hypocrites for trying to impose on something ordinary people do anyway without biblical bias!

 

Spoken like an elder or puppet of the GB.

This is my personal case : I left the Org after doing three months research into the Child Abuse accusations Earthwide in the JW Org. In my opinion the GB were responsible for most of it and the elders just acted as puppets for the GB. I could no longer see the GB as the 'faithful and discreet slave class' because of their actions and instruction to others. "By their works you will know them"... 

I did not spread any message in the congregation, so I did not cause division. I emailed as many elders as I could and told them I was 'resigning' from the JW Organisation. This does not mean I was or am turning against God or Jesus Christ. I just left the JW Org. ... 

The elders didn't ask me for a reason, they just called me in to 'do the paperwork'.  I had to sign a copy of the email that I'd sent which one of them had printed. 

Prior to me 'resigning' I had told a few 'brothers' that i intended to resign, not giving them a full explanation... This was so that those people that mattered to me would know I had not been disfellowshipped for sinning against God... 

Now we all know that the GB has told all elders how to announce it only one way from the platform. So and so 'is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses'. This is a deliberate ploy so that everyone will SHUN that person. No one would know if the person left of their own choice or was disfellowshipped for 'wrong conduct'. So of course no one would then speak to such a person. Total shunning.

Even those that knew I was 'resigning' do not speak to me. I repeat total SHUNNING. 

Why ? Not because of anything I've done, but out of fear of the elders and the thought of themselves being disfellowshipped. 

I am strong enough to cope and have a good wife. I can cope. Many cannot cope, they suffer badly.

But of course to the American mind, of which most of the GB are, it is just collateral damage... The same as is the Child Abuse victims. 

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7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Paul expected that a majority would rebuke this particular man, given the circumstances. He did not expect 100 percent agreement about the way a "disfellowshipped" person was treated.

Just wondering if this is the right slant here. It would seem your suggestion is that there is a majority, not unanimous. view in the congregation that this man was deserving of exclusion.

Could it not be read that the descriptive "majority" is actually a reference to those NOT engagaged in the immoral conduct as contrasted with the "minority" who were?

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3 hours ago, AllenSmith34 said:

The?? word?? ?“SHU?N?” is an? antagonistic word. It only has true meaning in a ?worldly so?ciety t?hat d?oes?nÂ’t???? understand between having people sin to? ?a poi?nt, it merits scriptural discipline. Keeping? th?e congr?egation clean is certainly NOT shunning.???

I'm afraid not according to the "life and ministry meeting work book"Screenshot_2018-09-24-17-23-39-1.png 2017-06-08

 

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The thing that the GB hates is if congregants start to think for themselves. Because that's when the GB starts to lose their hold over people. They lose a little bit of power and control every time someone thinks for themselves. 

I won't deny that there are some congregants who do not think for themselves and prefer to have someone else think for them. But that is not the objective of the the GB. I can't see how that would be to their advantage. They want our trust and cooperation, yes, but what personal advantage is it to them if they have "power and control" over people? They believe they are going to leave the earth and live in heaven in the near future. They are just doing their job they feel they have been assigned by Christ, which is to get the kingdom message preached, and keep the congregations morally and spiritually clean. There is nothing sinister behind that.

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6 minutes ago, Anna said:

They want our trust and cooperation, yes, but what personal advantage is it to them if they have "power and control" over people?

Then... they cannot be fired by anyone on Earth, and revolt is completely suppressed ... and no matter WHAT they do, or don't do ... the free money keeps rolling in ... and they never have to get their hands dirty, or miss a meal, or sleep cold, or wear worn out clothes.

This not in the slightest bit unusual, when religions have LOTS and LOTS of real estate.

It is ho-hum normal.

We are NOT the exception.

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6 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Then... they cannot be fired by anyone on Earth, and revolt is completely suppressed ... and no matter WHAT they do, or don't do ... the free money keeps rolling in ... and they never have to get their hands dirty, or miss a meal, or sleep cold, or wear worn out clothes.

This not in the slightest bit unusual, when religions have LOTS and LOTS of real estate.

It is ho-hum normal.

We are NOT the exception.

I think there are easier ways to ensure you don't get your hands dirty, miss a meal, sleep cold and wear worn out clothes. We have quite a number of brothers in our hall that have done just that. (Done pretty well for themselves).

Oh, and they can't get fired either as they are the owner of the business ?

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9 minutes ago, Anna said:

I think there are easier ways to ensure you don't get your hands dirty, miss a meal, sleep cold and wear worn out clothes. We have quite a number of brothers in our hall that have done just that. (Done pretty well for themselves).

I was referring to the GB, not the folks at the bottom.  They at the bottom have absolutely no say or valued opinions whatsoever, and therefore not the same reprehensibility. 

Think about the backgrounds of the GB .... they are all old men who if they were not doing what they do now ... what else COULD they do to survive in the "real" world, outside of free money, and LOTS of it?

They could not economically survive of their own devices, is my best guess.

Instead of reading scripture, it would be "You want fries with that?", or "Welcome to Wal-Mart".

 

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1 minute ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I was referring to the GB, not the folks at the bottom.  They have absolutely no say or valued opinions whatsoever, and therefore not the same reprehensibility.  Think about the backgrounds of the GB .... they are all old men who if they were not doing what thay do now ... what else COULD they do to survive in the "real" world, outside of free money, and LOTS of it?

I know who you were referring to. And I was saying there are easier ways to achieve the same. I mean would you really want to live your life knowing you are responsible for 8 million people? I certainly wouldn't. Not even for a Rolex watch.

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      I am very glad to have the education I have to know that the TRUTH is still the truth .... even though the 85% drivel has rotted and fermented into rotten sewage.
      Most JWs do NOT have this educational advantage ... so their lives are permanently destroyed.
      I don't expect much from people, and almost NOTHING from groups of people .... so for me, like getting one of those great salads at the Olive Garden Restaurant, and finding a big chunk of solid sewage in it ... I hold my nose, and eat around it.
      This TV Special is global news .... what could I possibly say to the average person that would clear the Name of God, that the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, NOT THE TELEVISION PROGRAM, has corrupted by its Pharisaic policies that have real world consequences?
      The exact same thing happened in ancient Israel, and a system that God blessed and supported for a thousand years and more was abandoned by God.
      The exact same thing.
       
       
       
       
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      CAN A PERSON ... OR SHOULD A PERSON . BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED IN ABSTENSIA?
      Here is the situation .....  a person REPORTED to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses is accused, and NOT convicted ( ... because he is a fugitive from Justice ...) .....

      Apparently he was at one time in a "Position Of Authority", which possibly alludes to his being an  "Elder", and he may have relocated to another State or even another Country. Possibly using an alias.
      The  various Congregation Elders cannot find him, the Society cannot find him, and the U.S. Marshal's Service cannot find him.
      Not having any indication to the contrary ... at least from the information given in the pseudo-Wanted Poster shown above, he is possibly still officially one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
      Whether he is or not, his bad example raises an interesting  aspect of trying to figure out how the disfellowshipping "system" protocol actually works.
      Can any of the Congregations  he went to disfellowship him without his being present  to answer charges ?
      ... and SHOULD he be?
       
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      DO  WE STILL  DISFELLOWSHIP  THE  MENTALLY  ILL ?
      I was a teenager in the 60's,  and I had a good friend that on Scout camping trips I introduced to the Truth, and I was there in NYC at Yankee Stadium when he was baptized as one of Jehovah's Witness. He was a true "straight arrow", and pioneered, always dressed immaculately, and eventually over the years became an Elder.
      One night, at an Elder's Meeting, he announced to the other Elders that he was Jesus Christ, and that his mother was the virgin Mary, and of course he was disfellowshipped.
      He spent several years in private mental institutions until his insurance money ran out, then in a State institution for several years.
      He called me up, and told me the story, and I told him I was the Great Turtleman, and every November, before I hibernated, I rose from the swamp and gave toys to all the good little boys and girls.  I was just pulling his leg, but he was dead serious.
      Later, he was in England, while his wife was trying without success to get him to take his medications, and fell over a balcony at Heathrow Airport and got killed.
      DO  WE STILL  DISFELLOWSHIP  THE  MENTALLY  ILL ?
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      from 2016 the year that they started the return to Jehovah brochure.
    • By Jack Ryan
      a heartbreaking video has emerged online showing how far reaching and deeply ingrained this shunning policy is; a video showing JehovahÂ’s Witnesses clapping in applause as a little girl announces she is shunning her own sister.
      Little Melody, and the sister she doesnÂ’t have.
      The incident appears to take place at one of this years Watchtower conventions. The video was posted on youtube by the girls parents, apprently eager to share with the world how they had trained one of their children to pretend her sister didnÂ’t exist purely on the basis of religious dogma.
      The video was comment-protected once viewers began expressing concern and displeasure at what they saw, but at the time of writing the video itself is still live and can be viewed below on the family’s youtube page. (EDIT 11/09/2017 – The video has been removed, but we have linked to an alternate site which has a copy)

      t shows a little girl called Melody. She is ten years old, and was apparently baptised when she was 9. This means that Melody is now committed to the religion for life, and will be shunned if she ever leaves, or “unrepentantly” breaks any of its vast array of detailed rules.
      During the interview, Melody explains that she has a sister who was “disfellowshipped,” which is the Witness term for one who is excommunicated; someone who was thrown out of the faith rather than leaving of their own accord. We are not told the reason for the disfellowshipping, but one can be subjected to it for a wide range of reasons such as pre-marital sex, celebrating Christmas or birthdays, voting, taking a blood transfusion, joining the military, or simply questioning any of the doctrines of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
      Melody states that her sister was trying to contact her, and asking her to stay in contact despite Watchtower decreeing that she be shunned. Remember, MelodyÂ’s sister has probably lost all her family and friends at this point; everyone she ever knew and loved.
      Melody admits that she misses and loves her sister, but states that she was afraid that if she didnÂ’t cut her sister off completely, she might be tempted to keep some form of relationship going. Thus, she has decided to shun her completely, as Watchtower demands. She claims that this was to protect her relationship with Jehovah.
      The audience of JehovahÂ’s Witnesses watching this announcement applaud.
      Source
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    • Just as the WT knows how to work the global market by investing their money in hedge funds, they know how to manipulate a developing mind with persuasion techniques.  I perceive the downplay of higher education as a safeguard from losing members.  While the organization warns these young ones of Satan’s worldly traps when pursuing higher education, in reality it appears to me that it’s all about keeping JWs captive to the organization’s “empty philosophy”.  Col 2:8  Knowing how the young mind develops sheds light on the org's use of persistent warnings not to pursue higher education.  “Developmental Tasks and Attributes of Late Adolescence/Young Adulthood (Ages 18-24 years) http://www.amchp.org/programsandtopics/AdolescentHealth/projects/Documents/SAHRC AYADevelopment LateAdolescentYoungAdulthood.pdf This is a time of life when very little is normative. It is a period of frequent change and exploration that covers many aspects of their life: home, family, work, school, resources, and role. Develop and apply abstract thinking skills Adolescents experience significant changes in their capacity to think. In changing from concrete to abstract thought they are increasingly able to understand and grapple with abstract ideas, think about possibilities, think ahead, think about thinking, and “put themselves in another person’s shoes.” In general, this changes their ability to think about themselves, others and the world around them. This is a gradual process that spans adolescence and young adulthood. For example, early in the process youth are limited in their ability to hold more than one point of view – understanding something from one perspective but not another. ·        Capacity for abstract thought becomes established; can think abstractly and hypothetically; can discern the underlying principles and apply them to new situations; and can think about the future, considering many possibilities and logical outcomes of possible events. ·       Able to hold and manipulate clusters of abstract ideas and create systems for organizing abstract thoughts. ·       Greater ability to consider different points of view at the same time can result in increased empathy and concern for others, and new interest in societal issues for many. It also allows youth to better value the diversity of people (and their perspectives) and appreciate that there may be many right answers to a problem. Adopt A Personal Value System Adolescents develop a more complex understanding of moral behavior and underlying principles of justice. They question and assess beliefs from childhood and restructure these beliefs into a personal ideology (e.g. more personally meaningful values, religious views, and belief systems to guide decisions and behavior). ·        Decisions and values are less influenced by peers. ·       Able to see multiple viewpoints, value the diversity of people and perspectives and appreciate that there can be many right answers to a problem. ·        Identify values and viewpoints that work for oneself while respecting viewpoints/values of others I would imagine there is a high risk of young JWs entering a college or university after high school, with the same age group, and going through the same mental development stages ...leaving the Watchtower altogether.  
    • John 17:14-16 The comments in the study Bible on John 17:15 say: "Jehovah...could even separate his people physically from the rest of the world and place them in a a safe and peaceful environment. However, regarding his disciples, Jesus prayed to his heavenly Father: "I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one." Jehovah has chosen not to take us "out of the world." Rather, it is his will that we live among the general population of this world in order to proclaim his message of hope and comfort to others. (Rom. 10:13-15) But, as Jesus implied in his prayer, by living in this world, we are exposed to "the wicked one." Disobedient mankind and wicked spirit forces cause much pain and anguish, and Christians are not immune to distress." 1 Peter 5:9 So while we recognize we have to live in a world under Satan's control, it doesn't mean we should go out of our way to expose ourselves to potentially dangerous influences and bad association. There are of course necessary things we must do to survive and provide for our families - such as employment, which as you correctly pointed out, can mean rubbing shoulders with worldly people and attitudes whatever level of education we choose. But even on that, we are selective so as to minimize our exposure to potentially harmful influences. It may include being selective as to what type of work we are willing to accept, or whom we work with/for. Many caring parents know they can't completely eliminate bad influences at school for instance (since kids have to have some type of schooling and it is beneficial), but they may choose to be selective as to whom they allow their kids to spend their extra time with. So living in the world, we recognize there are certain things we must do whether we like it or not. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't exercise caution and be selective as to what we choose to involve ourselves in. I could rationalize that I need a job to support myself and my family - a legitimate and necessary need,  but would I choose to work for the mafia to do so? No, I would be selective and cautious.  I agree with you. I often have the same problem on both phone and tablet. Fortunately I've recently discovered that we can edit and make corrections. I wish I had known that earlier before "auto-correct" ran roughshod over my posts.  As for my level of education, I provide as little information as possible to identify me. As a "whistleblower" on some things, there would be an opportunity for "blowback" from men in authority who have something to hide. I don't even post what country I'm from. So when I have written that at times there are men in authority who act as wickedly as people in the world and hide behind their authority, I know exactly what I'm talking about. That's why I don't buy into the "Jesus is in full control of everything..." stuff, because I know some of the stuff that goes on is about as unChristlike as you can get. He doesn't cause/control it just because he allows it for a time. I also question some of the decisions men (not Jesus) have made when I am in possession of all the facts - especially when removal or disfellowshipping has as it's objective to silence whistleblowers who expose their corruption. I have never been DF'd, but I know if they thought I was spilling the beens on them, that's exactly what would happen. So I don't mention any names either that would tip them off. Just letting people know that you can still maintain your faith and relationship with God despite the evil that (some) men do - and get away with for now.  Sorry if this rant is off topic.
    • Perhaps it can be as you said. And perhaps this can be true with many other similar "stories".   What I see as important in this "story", is fine moral message and inspirational, motivating injection that in this materialistic and superficial everyday life offers a spiritual upgrade.... said with different order of words. 
    • Some do. Like the Rainbow Mountains, and some of the Caucasus (Svaneti) look more like rocky Alps. I'd love to see those mountains, and I planned to visit Georgia within two or three years if possible. I've never been to Georgia, the closest so far has been to northern Turkey (Ankara, Zonguldak, Samsun). If Jehovah did not intervene, and nature was left to itself, moving the tectonic plates would have caused thousands of violent aftershocks and tsunamis for quite some time after the floodwaters settled. Even on water, during the Flood, the Ark would have to be given divine protection. Settling on a high mountain might protect from tsunamis but not the quakes. I'd like to look up some info on these. Where should I start?
    • The story has also been told that it was a "black boy" who offered him the newspaper for free: https://mylife-chapter.blogspot.com/2017/08/who-is-richer-than-bill-gates.html When my wife was a school principal, teachers were always putting up posters about, for example, the "Ten Things Bill Gates Says about School" or "What Bill Gates Said Were the Most Important Things in Life" etc. He may have told a story like this, but usually people create such stories so that their own moral lesson comes across with more authority.  
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