1914

[the Sower of Seed]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

I did, with plenty of scripture. I’m surprised that not even Ps 110:2  clicked.   Maybe you should go back and read them?

Maybe you should re read the question? 

EVIDENCE of KINGSHIP AFTER JOHN WROTE REVELATION in the 1st Century?

does having all authority equal being enthroned as King?

Or does being enthroned demand a ceremony where Jehovah exalts Christ as King before everyone involved, 1st the angels, then mankind? 

Satan, who rejects Christ Kingship would be thrown out immediately or would Christ just hangout with him in Heaven 2000 years?

Satan has authority over everyone on Earth, was he Enthroned as Earths King?

To better understand, If Christ had ALL AUTHORITY: Why did he not order Satan to desist all wicked influence on Christ's Brothers?

Now, you are a single apostate, will God only deliver you? 

For God must deliver those who believe the Truth expressed by a Faithful Slave, who are Christ's Brothers. Mtt.24:45

Are You One of Christ's Brothers dispensing the Truth In HARMONY with a Faithful Slave?

The Good News being accomplished throughout the Earth is being lead by angelic direction, the sheep are directed to the Faithful Slave and the Waters of Truth.........................NOT TO YOU

WHO SHOULD CONFORM?

[Anna]

On 12/31/2019 at 12:39 PM, 4Jah2me said:

Yes Anna precisely. When push came to shove, G. Jackson had to admit that the GB were not the only channel God would use. BUT they will not put it in writing.  Isn't that being deceptive ? Or more so dishonest ? As you've said most people, including 'boots on the ground' JWs, will not know.   

It has been put in writing, but no it so many words as he said at the ARC. Not black and white. Many JW's don't think beyond what is black and white, and need everything not only served up, but already digested. This is why many, like you, are under the wrong impression that the GB are supposed to make no mistakes, and cannot be questioned. And then, like you, when they find out they have made mistakes, their faith is shaken, and they throw out the baby with the bath water.

So then you keep talking about the "real anointed"....
What do you think the identifying mark of these "real anointed" is?  What should these "real anointed" be like? Like the anointed in the first century? Perhaps like impulsive Peter, who denied Christ three times, and was hypocritical when it came to impartiality or perhaps like Paul, who had outbursts of anger, or Barnabas who was swayed by others to act pretentiously? The Bible does not mention every detail of the lives of the anointed, and the mistakes they made, but it is obvious that they were imperfect and did make mistakes. Should we expect any less from the "real anointed" today? Because you seem to be stuck on the idea that the true anointed would never make any mistakes. But that is not a Biblical teaching at all. Why else were the anointed of the 1st century admonished to continue putting up with one another? Why did James say to his fellow anointed that they were to confess their sins to one another? Why did Paul admit it was a battle to do the right thing, and that sometimes he failed? The anointed of those days were baptized with holy spirit, the HS helped them to speak languages they never knew before, it helped them to perform miracles. All that was finished and done when the last of them died, and wasn't going to happen again. Jesus said that the HS was going to guide the anointed into all the truth. There is no indication that this was going to be an instantaneous revelation. On the contrary it was going to be gradual, just like the dawning of a day. (according to the scriptures).  Not only that, but "all the truth" is a relative term, as according to the Bible we will never know all the truth. So "all the truth" means what Jehovah wants us to know, and when he wants us to know it.

@b4ucuhear hit the nail on the head when he said regarding those taking the lead:  "People need to know the difference. "Whole-souled devotion" to Jehovah does not mean whole-souled devotion to imperfect men - even when we respect what authority they have as part of Jehovah's arrangement and offer scriptural obedience. " One reason is that some of these men are not who they appear to be (whether they be "wolves in sheep's clothing," "wicked men and imposters," "rocks hidden below the surface..." There is no level of authority within the organization where such men have not been found.) Should we be obedient to them? We need to know the difference when such men (i.e.. apostates or immoral men) direct things not in harmony with Jesus' direction as recorded in the Bible. Also, that way we won't be stumbled when Jesus apparently gets dates and teachings wrong and has to back-track on what he directed/controlled before. No, the reality is that we still have to use our brains".  (emphasis mine).

The above sentiments apply not only to apostates and immoral men, but to anyone in the position of leadership (just in case you don't know, that means the GB too). This is why G. Jackson was able to say that (paraphrased), "anyone who has the Bible can check whether the GB is doing things according to the Bible". That means YOU too! So please tell, Bible in hand, what have you found?

 

[Anna]

P.S. Correction: To be fair, I should have never used the word "channel" as that was never what was questioned, because the only channel God is using to communicate with mankind is his Word, the Bible. The word that was actually used is "spokesperson" for God, and it is obvious that anyone who "speaks" the Word of God (from the Bible) is his spokesperson.  G. Jackson remarked that it is anyone who gives comfort and help through the scriptures.....

[Witness]

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Maybe you should re read the question? 

EVIDENCE of KINGSHIP AFTER JOHN WROTE REVELATION in the 1st Century?

From what I remember, your statement was,

"Please provide some evidence that Christ was enthroned in the 1st century."

I gave you many scriptures to prove that he was.   If you’re asking for evidence that Christ is viewed as King in Revelation, let me first give more evidence of kingship even while one earth:

Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?” Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”  Luke 18:37

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Satan, who rejects Christ Kingship would be thrown out immediately or would Christ just hangout with him in Heaven 2000 years?

A king “conquers”:

"Now is the judgment of this world. Now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

"and about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

"I have told you these things so that in me you may have peace. You will have suffering in this world. Be courageous! I have conquered the world."  John 12:31; 16:11,33

Just as Jesus conquered Satan and his accusations against him, while on earth, every anointed one must also conquer him.

John 14:30 "I will not talk with you much longer, because the ruler of the world is coming. He has no power over me.”

“I have written to you, children, because you have come to know the Father. I have written to you, fathers, because you have come to know the one who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, God's word remains in you, and you have conquered the evil one.”  1 John 2:14

Conquering Satan is conquering death.  That is only possible by turning to Christ in full obedience.  We receive life through Christ’s atoning sacrifice, only if we obey his teachings.  John 14:21   

 “O death, where is your victory?
    O death, where is your sting?”

⁵⁶ For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. ⁵⁷ But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Cor 15:55-57

This is during the “thousand year kingdom” that began in the first century:

He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love”  Col 1:13

 

Revelation:

 “John, to the seven churches in Asia: grace to you and peace from the one who is and the one who was and the one who is coming, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, ⁵ and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To the one who loves us and released us from our sins by his blood ⁶ and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—to him be the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen.”  Rev 1:4-6

To be ruler over the “kings of the earth” – HIS faithful kings -  He also must be a ruling King:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and the one seated on it was called “Faithful” and “True,” and with justicehe judges and makes war.  And out of his mouth came a sharp sword, so that with it he could strike the nations. And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, and he stomps the winepress of the wine of the furious wrath of God, the All-Powerful. ¹⁶ And he has a name written on his outer garment and on his thigh: “King of kings and Lord of lords.” Rev 19:11,15,16

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

does having all authority equal being enthroned as King?

Or does being enthroned demand a ceremony where Jehovah exalts Christ as King before everyone involved, 1st the angels, then mankind? 

 ^“ And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and of the living creatures and of the elders, and their number was ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands times thousands, ¹² saying with a loud voice,

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slaughtered
    to receive power and riches
    and wisdom and strength
    and honor and glory and praise!”

¹³ And I heard every creature that is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and in the sea and everything in them saying,

“To the one who is seated on the throne and to the Lamb
    be praise and honor and glory and power
    forever and ever.”

¹⁴ And the four living creatures were saying, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.  Rev 5:11-14

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

To better understand, If Christ had ALL AUTHORITY: Why did he not order Satan to desist all wicked influence on Christ's Brothers?

 

Christ's “thousand year” kingdom is to bring to nothing, Satan’s world.  This culminates when death is destroyed in Armageddon. (1 Cor 15:24-26; Rev 20:10)   For 2,000 years, he has been building the tried and cleansed “administration” of priests/kings/Bride who will serve God and Christ, reign and teach in Gods Kingdom. Eph 1:9-11

As I said, Satan was “abyssed” in the first century.  The abyss is not a “place of inactivity” as the WT claims , but a point of altered perception, the state of “not perceiving”.   Hades, Tartarus, hell, abyss all refer to a state of “not perceiving”. A place of darkness.  (Jer 13:16; Rom 10:7; 2; 2 Pet 2:4;Jude 1:6; Col 1:13)

 Hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see/perceive/know") = not knowing/not understanding/not perceiving.

When Satan is released from the abyss, his focus becomes clearly bent on destroying the “remaining ones of the woman’s seed.” Rev 12:4  He formulates “Gog and Magog”, the Beasts of Revelation. (2 Thess 2:3,4; 9-12; Rev 13:1,2,5-7,11,12; 20:7-10)

Jesus, who conquered death, has a key to the abyss, (Rev 1:18) as does Satan, who is “King” of the abyss. Rev 9:11  To utilize it, Satan must have willing subjects who submit to his offers. Luke 4:7   This is how the two Beasts of Revelation develop, through the “key” given a “fallen star” – fallen anointed whom he manipulates to carry out his plan against the anointed of God.   (Dan 12:3; Phil 2:15; Jude 1:11-13; Rev 9:1-3; 8:10,11; Heb 12:15; Rev 13:1,2) 

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Now, you are a single apostate, will God only deliver you? 

My label as an “apostate” by the organization, does not apply to “apostate” that scriptures refer to. I have not rejected God, Christ, or truth in the scriptures.  I have rejected the organization and its falsehoods. 

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

For God must deliver those who believe the Truth expressed by a Faithful Slave, who are Christ's Brothers. Mtt.24:45

Is 1975…TRUTH? How about the “generation” teaching, which one of those over the years, is truth? What about the teaching of a bloody slaughter during Armageddon committed by God and Christ, when you don't believe in hellfire. This is a hypocritical teaching.  

"Because they have forsaken me, and they have defaced this place, and they have made smoke offerings in it to other gods whom they have not known, they, nor their ancestors, nor the kings of Judah, and they have filled up this place with the blood of the innocent, ⁵ and they have built the high places of Baal, to burn their children in the fire, burnt offerings to Baal, which I commanded not, and I ordered not, and it did not come to my mind."  Jer 19:4-5

 

"And they built the high places of Baal that are in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to present as offerings their sons and their daughters to Molech, which I had not commanded them, and it had not come to my mind to do this detestable thing in order to cause Judah to sin.”  Jer 32:35

So...why do JWs look forward to WT's version of Armageddon?

  I know of a faithful anointed, who would never use the label of “faithful and discreet slave” to pull anyone in, because that one knows Christ decides who is faithful to him or not. Matt 25:21  This one relies on Christ and Holy Spirit to dispense truth, not on “helpers”, writers, committees, buildings, money, but solely on the Father and Christ.  Zech 4:2-6,11-14; Rev 111-3

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Are You One of Christ's Brothers dispensing the Truth In HARMONY with a Faithful Slave?

I believe I am, but I will  never again dispense so-called “truth” in harmony with a wicked slave.  Been there, done that.

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The Good News being accomplished throughout the Earth is being lead by angelic direction, the sheep are directed to the Faithful Slave and the Waters of Truth.........................NOT TO YOU

I don’t look for followers.  I look to expose lies and reveal truth about the conditions of God’s people today, and about the Christ.    The “good news” at the end of the days is the “restoration of Jacob”.  Matt 17:3,11; Luke 1:16,17; Mal 4:6; Isa 49:6,8,9,12

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

WHO SHOULD CONFORM?

All of us, should question what doctrines are taught in the organization.  Our lives depend on obeying scripture.  Should we ever conform to lies?

[Arauna]

19 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

wars, famine, earthquakes, crimes .... can't be considered  as "unusual"  for humankind, these are not "miracles". But everyday process in life of people and Earth. Even "preaching" is not a miracle, but repeated history

Before 1914 there were no wars with flame-throwers, airplanes, large submarines (one-man subs yes in civil war),  abundance of machine guns, tanks,  chemical warfare,  and the list goes on.  It was not called the Great War for nothing ; and later WW1 because of the new weaponized trend which started and involved coalitions which covered the world.  Millions died not hundreds of thousands like before. 

There were illnesses in all wars and times but the Spanish influenza was not just contained to regions like the black plague was in ancient times - it was world-wide and the deaths almost equaled the great war itself.

The preaching of the "kingdom"  in the entire world has never been done ever before because christendom are not preaching a government.  Matt 24:14 specifically says: "kingdom".   

12 hours ago, Kosonen said:

106 years is way long. And longer than any generation. 

Not really- Noah lived 650 years. The generation of the flood was 120 years....... and the bible itself compares the time of the flood with the time of the end. ..... so start complaining when 120 years has passed.

12 hours ago, Kosonen said:

But then it has been very prosperous times until recently. 

If you are sitting in safety in a rich country you can say this. Maybe your country is the one causing death and destruction in other countries to maintain its supremacy.

Hunger in one place after another due to more than 50 wars  in many places until terrorists took over.  I have lost count because Africa is in chaos and journalists do not write about this. Conventional warfare has been replaced by terrorism with daily death tolls of 60 or more. This is war-like. Do you see it in the news?

Europe sees daily stabbings of 3 or more,  since the new millennia we see wars in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan (longest US war ever) Yemen and continuous civil war in Palestine, Israel, and the Arab spring in north Africa also comes to mind......

Apart  from internal party and racial strife in countries such as USA (this is going on in all countries on earth) we see again a build-up of terrible fear-inspiring weapons. 

The first modern technological wars which started in 1914 is being improved upon every time mankind goes to war. ..... it is like birth pains which are escalating. No wonder jehovah says - no flesh will be saved if he does not step in.  Will they start to use their weapons? We do not know...... all we do know it will be bad and it will be in this time period marked by its beginning in 1914. 

 

[Arauna]

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

where the teaching about what Russell discerned in 1914 was importan

Russel was not the only one to discern 1914 as a date. All the other study groups he had been mixing with before also discerned this date. What most people do not get is that there was a general trend amongst the "new" bible study groups in this time to predict the end. They used all kinds of methods.... many drew a  pyramid to fit in time lines - even Russel. They believed the large pyramid was built by the Israelites and therefore they were sure it fitted in with bible prophecy. They were obsessed with dates. This is why they had some wrong dates included in the mix.

Seventh day adventists also pinpointed 1914 as the bible students did.  They did not understand all the facts about the year as we understand it today but they knew something big would happen.  They expected to go to heaven. 

[Arauna]

On 1/1/2020 at 2:10 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

FALSE premise that you are limited to do only one thing, or the other thing.

Remember the congregation mentioned in Revelation? It was neither hot nor cold.  Jehovah spat them out.  We must be decisive - not sit on the fence.

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Before 1914 there were no wars with flame-throwers, airplanes, large submarines (one-man subs yes in civil war),  abundance of machine guns, tanks,  chemical warfare,  and the list goes on.

When someone uses a stone instead of their hands, and instead of stone he uses a bronze sword and instead of a bronze sword he uses an iron sword .... this is the advancement of technology and causes wonder in the eyes of the beholder.

If Bible (and prophecies and events in the past) speaks in this manner, than all in this world are "unusual events" aka miracles from the very beginning and not only after 1914. (especially if individual see something for the first time)

By the way, first murder, first rape, first slavery ...etc.  were also unusual events when happened for the first time. And now these are everyday events for thousands of years already.

[Kosonen]

@Arauna What you say is not so remarkable because the world's population has been able to grow thanks to better life conditions the past 100 years than before. The centuries before people died prematurely in larger scales from disease, violence, famine and wars.

Please check the link below. There are numbers of world's population through centuries

 http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/other/worldpop.html

[Arauna]

 You reason like an evolutionist.  Everything remains the same to them with small incremental advancements.......... WW1 was a major advancement in war technology. If you have read any history books you would know that historians acknowledge that the world changed in 1914.  Even the society changed.  It crushed the class system in Europe.

[Srecko Sostar]

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It all depends upon where you look and what is most important to you.

I am reminded of that line from the 1968 book The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life: “True, there has been progress in a materialistic way. But is it really progress when men send rockets to the moon, and yet cannot live together in peace on earth?”

Some people think it is.

Do you suggest, with this quote, how people would live in more peace if technology (materialistic) progress did not happen?   

[Kosonen]

@Arauna Yes, the world has changed, and that for the better. I am happy that I live now instead of 100 or 200 years ago. We don't experience premature death our days in the scale it used to be through out centuries. And living standards has risen tremendously the past decades even for people in Asia and Africa. 

So the question is when was Satan thrown down to earth or has that happened at all? I don't care what GB says. I am just evaluating the situation with a sober mind.

But that does not mean that I don't expect Jesus' return. I believe it fully possible that Satan can be thrown down to earth this new year. And then he will have a precisely short time to cause serious trouble on earth. The devastating horsemen of Revelation. Here I am talking about years and not about decades or centuries.