JW Core Beliefs .... As Applied

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

I’m going from memory here so any one can correct me….but I think this time period was before the judges….no kings and no judges…and this is what happens when there is no leadership over Gods people……they do what is right in their own eyes…and these things happen….

Thanks for both of your comments Thinking. In those days, as i can recall, before new system of kings was established, there was important people like Judges, Priests, Levites, Tribe Elders, ..., and Law of Moses.  From this I would conclude that this is not about a lack of administration or persons in positions of power to lead the people. Ever since the creation of Adam and Eve, God has established the principle of "free will" and independent decision-making, and the ability to learn to recognize "what is good and what is bad." 

No matter how you try to set things up there is no real solution. If the people are without "leadership", anarchy occurs. If a nation has “leadership” then there is an abuse of power and position that is often times legalized to the point that little can be change.

The old nation of Israel during the Judges was not a disorganized group that came from the “jungle”. There were laws and people in power, and the Israelites were a “literate” people who knew how to read the Law of Moses. Something else went wrong.

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

If any thing Serco….this account shows Gods people cannot do what they think is right in their own eyes and leadership is required to keep some form of balance and some for of peace…but it can never be perfect and just like Jesus will accomplish…

There is insufficient information on how God envisioned Adam and Eve to gain “knowledge of what is good and what is evil,” and insufficient we can know how God intended the principle of “free will” and independent decision-making to be implemented globally. According to the Bible report, His idea failed very quickly as far as the First People were concerned. We don’t know enough about what happened to the “rebellious angel or angels” before Eden Tree. So we have a question; did the "devil" have a rebellious activity long before the appearance of Adam and Eve, based on the same principle of "free will"? If so, the Bible says nothing that God sanctioned him. Which would be strange if God had done nothing against rebellion “in heaven”. It is hard for me to imagine that the "devil" could have hidden his rebellious spirit so well, and that it was only with the appearance of Adam and Eve that it first came to the fore in such a public way.

Unfortunately, I come to the realization that, all types of systems are flawed. In Eden, in the ancient Nation of Israel, and in the WTJWorg, the so-called "theocratic system of government" has the same effects and shortcomings as the best system man has found and called the "democratic system of government."

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, Thinking said:

Secro have you been on utube and seen how many other faiths don’t celebrate birthdays …..I was shocked to see how many take the same stand as us with the same principles involved. You will also see the same amount who argue like you…so the thing is…make up your own mind on this…settle it with your own heart….but do you argue with those other faiths who don’t celebrate birthdays as well.?

lol.... so, other faiths have also God's guidance and blessings to find "the truth", not just GB !?  

In my case, it happened that my mother and then immediately my father accepted the JW religion when I was 7 years old. Let’s say I was raised from a young age “in faith”. So it’s just such circumstances that I’ve been the most, and the longest considering my age, in the JW religion. So, what to expect from me? :)))

[Thinking]

53 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Thanks for both of your comments Thinking. In those days, as i can recall, before new system of kings was established, there was important people like Judges, Priests, Levites, Tribe Elders, ..., and Law of Moses.  From this I would conclude that this is not about a lack of administration or persons in positions of power to lead the people. Ever since the creation of Adam and Eve, God has established the principle of "free will" and independent decision-making, and the ability to learn to recognize "what is good and what is bad." 

No matter how you try to set things up there is no real solution. If the people are without "leadership", anarchy occurs. If a nation has “leadership” then there is an abuse of power and position that is often times legalized to the point that little can be change.

The old nation of Israel during the Judges was not a disorganized group that came from the “jungle”. There were laws and people in power, and the Israelites were a “literate” people who knew how to read the Law of Moses. Something else went wrong.

There is insufficient information on how God envisioned Adam and Eve to gain “knowledge of what is good and what is evil,” and insufficient we can know how God intended the principle of “free will” and independent decision-making to be implemented globally. According to the Bible report, His idea failed very quickly as far as the First People were concerned. We don’t know enough about what happened to the “rebellious angel or angels” before Eden Tree. So we have a question; did the "devil" have a rebellious activity long before the appearance of Adam and Eve, based on the same principle of "free will"? If so, the Bible says nothing that God sanctioned him. Which would be strange if God had done nothing against rebellion “in heaven”. It is hard for me to imagine that the "devil" could have hidden his rebellious spirit so well, and that it was only with the appearance of Adam and Eve that it first came to the fore in such a public way.

Unfortunately, I come to the realization that, all types of systems are flawed. In Eden, in the ancient Nation of Israel, and in the WTJWorg, the so-called "theocratic system of government" has the same effects and shortcomings as the best system man has found and called the "democratic system of government."

This is all guess work what I’m going to say…but I cannot see a loving Father create another family whilst he had a rebellious son in his existing one….we only have indication from the scriptures that up until pride settled in his heart…Satan the devil was to all purposes a loving beautiful magnificent son of Jehovah…a trusted member of his heavenly family…

Depending on who you read….and I think once upon a time even we said it…he may have been put in charge of Adam and Eve…to teach them etc….off course there is no scriptural proof of this…to me it sort of makes sense….

Power and pride hey…it can get any one….

as to your last paragraph..I agree…I genuinely  wish you well …

 

 

 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

17 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

the so-called "theocratic system of government" has the same effects and shortcomings as the best system man has found and called the "democratic system of government."

Srecko, I think a TRUE theocratic system inspired by Holy Spirit, would not have the shortcomings and problems that the W/t / JW Org has. But of course it would suffer serious persecution from outside forces.

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

was established, there was important people like Judges, Priests, Levites, Tribe Elders, ..., and Law of Moses.

Actually Shreco -   Each family was directly under Jehovah with the family head as the one directing the affairs of the family. Family heads were to keep the family (and extended family when death occurred) in Jehovah's worship and exercise a loving relationship in the family. As long as the family served Jehovah and went to the temple 3 times a year - they had Jehovah's protection and their crops were blessed.  They lived a peaceful life.  Excessive wealth and show piece buildings was not part of the Israelite culture until much later. This time period in the history of Israel was to serve as an example to other nations that each man had his property, home, stock and crops and lived peaceful as long as he served Jehovah. Humans are imperfect and so many unsatisfied Israelites brought bad events on themselves because they followed the nations around them. The priests established schools to teach the laws of Jehovah and each person gave the 10ths of their harvest to Jehovah to support the Levites. It was to be a nation of peaceful people, unharrassed by enemies and blessed. rains food etc. what else would they need? Unless they wanted the things the superstitious nations around them put value on.

Elders only had power to be witnesses of legal transactions in the city gates or to litigate these written agreements and other matters according to the Mosaic law - which was absolutely clear and easy to litigate.. if they stuck to Jehovah's laws things were easy BUT when they became compromised or corrupted things did not go well. Elders and priests were not given extra ordinary powers.  Jehovah has always been against " one man ruling over another"  Eccl 8:9. If they took power - it was not power given them by Jehovah.  Also, in the cities of refuge (accidental murder) - things went smooth if people did not compromise integrity or took more power for themselves. The bible speaks of the time when these judges were so corrupt that Jehovah would bring the exile to Babylon. 

This is why Samuel asked the nation why they really wanted a king like other nations?  They would be conscripted to build the king's buildings and would have to fight his wars.  Up until then Jehovah raised judges such as Gideon for Israel to throw off the yoke of other nations who oppressed them.  They would fall under the yoke of other nations only when they worshipped other gods and worship to Jehovah was badly contaminated.  They would cry to Jehovah and he would raise up a judge to free them from oppression.  After they chose to have kings it went rally bad with them because it was king Jeroboam who imported the worst form of false religion into Israel and this remained with them until the 10 tribes were taken into exile by Assyria.

Under the rulership of Christ we will not have people with POWER. Jesus and his co-rulers will judge us (judging in the sense of making decisions when people do wrong). Each person will follow the laws of Jehovah because the laws are in our hearts - not because we have police following us around or elders to punish us.  All of us will be directly under the rule of Christ and Jehovah who can read hearts!  Freedom under the laws of Jehovah!  Each person will willingly follow the laws of god and those who continually break them will go into second death. 

The princes the bible talks about will make it easier for us t o learn about jehovah and organize us to serve jehovah better and know his principles.  I see them as facilitators. They will also organize and help us and plan activities - not rule over us!  Human rulership will be over! ! ! jehovah's kingdom will be ruling!   We do not know if angels will be the messengers or what..... but we will be under direct rulership!

3 hours ago, Thinking said:

Adam and Eve to gain “knowledge of what is good and what is evil,”

Adam and eve already had a conscience and already knew good from bad!  They wanted more!  Satan told them that they can become their own gods by deciding good and bad for themselves! he told them they would not die - a lie! People are still doing it today.  They find the ways of Jehovah restrictive and not benevolent.

Jehovah knows how society must function and the laws which are needed so that people do not hurt each other inadvertently or deliberately! All must follow the principles to live happy and without cares.   Do you want proof that Adam knew good from bad?    The bible calls Jesus the last Adam because he is the only and last one needed to prove the justness of Jehovah's good and bad.   He came to earth and was the exact equivalent of Adam. He knew good from bad and maintained integrity to the laws of Jehovah until death.  he was just a man like Adam.  He therefore proved that Jehovah was not unfair to expect Adam to keep his moral laws.  He was created perfect. 

Jehovah gives us all free will - this free will is the most powerful thing Jehovah gave us because we can use it correctly or abuse it. We are created in Jehovah's image with free will - except that we are bound to God in a relationship and to each other. 

 It is like a child you love so much and one sees them break all natural laws and destroy themselves with drugs or crime.  Every person is a free agent and can decide if they want to obey Jehovah in every situation they are in - or not!  Jehovah is not a dictator but created us to be free but in a loving relationship with him.  Some people choose to break out of this relationship and follow their own desires and to break free from jehovah and the principles which bind us to him and give our life meaning. They inevitably fall foul to the ravages of acting against the way they were created to act ! They cannot be happy. Wealth and other things cannot replace the relationship we have with Jehovah! And when this is completely restored we will all be one happy family - love each other and love jehovah they way he created us to be!

 

 

[Thinking]

18 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Actually Shreco -   Each family was directly under Jehovah with the family head as the one directing the affairs of the family. Family heads were to keep the family (and extended family when death occurred) in Jehovah's worship and exercise a loving relationship in the family. As long as the family served Jehovah and went to the temple 3 times a year - they had Jehovah's protection and their crops were blessed.  They lived a peaceful life.  Excessive wealth and show piece buildings was not part of the Israelite culture until much later. This time period in the history of Israel was to serve as an example to other nations that each man had his property, home, stock and crops and lived peaceful as long as he served Jehovah. Humans are imperfect and so many unsatisfied Israelites brought bad events on themselves because they followed the nations around them. The priests established schools to teach the laws of Jehovah and each person gave the 10ths of their harvest to Jehovah to support the Levites. It was to be a nation of peaceful people, unharrassed by enemies and blessed. rains food etc. what else would they need? Unless they wanted the things the superstitious nations around them put value on.

Elders only had power to be witnesses of legal transactions in the city gates or to litigate these written agreements and other matters according to the Mosaic law - which was absolutely clear and easy to litigate.. if they stuck to Jehovah's laws things were easy BUT when they became compromised or corrupted things did not go well. Elders and priests were not given extra ordinary powers.  Jehovah has always been against " one man ruling over another"  Eccl 8:9. If they took power - it was not power given them by Jehovah.  Also, in the cities of refuge (accidental murder) - things went smooth if people did not compromise integrity or took more power for themselves. The bible speaks of the time when these judges were so corrupt that Jehovah would bring the exile to Babylon. 

This is why Samuel asked the nation why they really wanted a king like other nations?  They would be conscripted to build the king's buildings and would have to fight his wars.  Up until then Jehovah raised judges such as Gideon for Israel to throw off the yoke of other nations who oppressed them.  They would fall under the yoke of other nations only when they worshipped other gods and worship to Jehovah was badly contaminated.  They would cry to Jehovah and he would raise up a judge to free them from oppression.  After they chose to have kings it went rally bad with them because it was king Jeroboam who imported the worst form of false religion into Israel and this remained with them until the 10 tribes were taken into exile by Assyria.

Under the rulership of Christ we will not have people with POWER. Jesus and his co-rulers will judge us (judging in the sense of making decisions when people do wrong). Each person will follow the laws of Jehovah because the laws are in our hearts - not because we have police following us around or elders to punish us.  All of us will be directly under the rule of Christ and Jehovah who can read hearts!  Freedom under the laws of Jehovah!  Each person will willingly follow the laws of god and those who continually break them will go into second death. 

The princes the bible talks about will make it easier for us t o learn about jehovah and organize us to serve jehovah better and know his principles.  I see them as facilitators. They will also organize and help us and plan activities - not rule over us!  Human rulership will be over! ! ! jehovah's kingdom will be ruling!   We do not know if angels will be the messengers or what..... but we will be under direct rulership!

Adam and eve already had a conscience and already knew good from bad!  They wanted more!  Satan told them that they can become their own gods by deciding good and bad for themselves! he told them they would not die - a lie! People are still doing it today.  They find the ways of Jehovah restrictive and not benevolent.

Jehovah knows how society must function and the laws which are needed so that people do not hurt each other inadvertently or deliberately! All must follow the principles to live happy and without cares.   Do you want proof that Adam knew good from bad?    The bible calls Jesus the last Adam because he is the only and last one needed to prove the justness of Jehovah's good and bad.   He came to earth and was the exact equivalent of Adam. He knew good from bad and maintained integrity to the laws of Jehovah until death.  he was just a man like Adam.  He therefore proved that Jehovah was not unfair to expect Adam to keep his moral laws.  He was created perfect. 

Jehovah gives us all free will - this free will is the most powerful thing Jehovah gave us because we can use it correctly or abuse it. We are created in Jehovah's image with free will - except that we are bound to God in a relationship and to each other. 

 It is like a child you love so much and one sees them break all natural laws and destroy themselves with drugs or crime.  Every person is a free agent and can decide if they want to obey Jehovah in every situation they are in - or not!  Jehovah is not a dictator but created us to be free but in a loving relationship with him.  Some people choose to break out of this relationship and follow their own desires and to break free from jehovah and the principles which bind us to him and give our life meaning. They inevitably fall foul to the ravages of acting against the way they were created to act ! They cannot be happy. Wealth and other things cannot replace the relationship we have with Jehovah! And when this is completely restored we will all be one happy family - love each other and love jehovah they way he created us to be!

 

 

Just to let you know those posts were not from me….there seems to be a flaw somewhere on here because I notice this happens from time to time…..your post was excellent…

[Arauna]

8 hours ago, Thinking said:

we are wrong to advise not to do higher education….I’m hoping eventually that will change….and no I don’t put reports in and yes I do still

All universities are so compromised - they have become schools of degenerate propaganda. All these newfangled philosophies are now taught and students are forced to take the subjects - no matter what your degree.   Students dare not show if they disagree with the teachers because freedom of speech is gone - they become marked.  have you not heard of the professors who are leaving universities in droves because of what is going on? 

[Srecko Sostar]

27 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah knows how society must function and the laws which are needed so that people do not hurt each other inadvertently or deliberately! All must follow the principles to live happy and without cares.   Do you want proof that Adam knew good from bad?    The bible calls Jesus the last Adam because he is the only and last one needed to prove the justness of Jehovah's good and bad.   He came to earth and was the exact equivalent of Adam.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it can be looked at and compared so literally. The foreknowledge and knowledge and wisdom and experience of Jesus, who came to Earth from the position of a person in the Universe with the title of - the Word, the Firstborn and the Only Begotten, is incomparable to Adam and Eve, even as "perfect" humans. This is another type of equality that was needed to equalize the values of life and death, and thus redemption.

[Arauna]

20 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

the Only Begotten, is incomparable to Adam

That is your own desires speaking.  The bible says so!  Are you rejecting the bible?  Read book of Romans.  It compares Jesus to Adam saying that through one man sin entered into the world (Romans 5:12) and through one man's sacrifice we are freed from it and reconciled to god.  It says so in many places! 1 Corinthians 15: 45 "So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.”b The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. ....

 

Romans 12: So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation,d so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sortse is their being declared righteous for life.f ¹⁹  For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners,g so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous.

In both the above scriptures it shows that jesus was a propitiatory sacrifice. What adam did was to condemn us and what jesus did was to reconcile us to god ( disobedience lead to death + obedience to God bought us life!)

[xero]

I read all this and what I see is a lot of spiritual shoulder surfing. Everyone needs to listen to their bible trained conscience and leave it at that. Usually this means that the reason you don't do a number of things is more due to custom or because you don't want to stumble people. Let's face it. People are idiots and they'd rather gawk around the room to see what everyone else is doing and do what the "prominent" do than to do their own homework and mind their own business and reap what they themselves sow. (of course they can't avoid the latter) Quite frankly this is why any remark made in person or in print by anyone which doesn't come w/scriptural support (which I can see as flowing from) I'll gladly ignore. If it looks like I'm paying attention that's probably because there is scriptural support. If you can't see it don't imagine I'm following the advise for any other reason than to avoid stumbling someone or because this is likely not the hill I'm willing to die on.

[Arauna]

25 minutes ago, xero said:

print by anyone which doesn't come w/scriptural support (which I can see as flowing from) I'll gladly ignore. If it looks like I'm paying attention that's probably because there is scriptural support. If you can't see it don't imagine I'm following the advise for any other reason than to avoid stumbling someone or because this is likely not the hill I'm willing to die on.

You did not say much. Show us where we went scripturally wrong and we will listen. At least I am prepared to listen.  Instead of adding something you just condemned and therefore agree with those who actually do not accept the bible as their guideline but their own ideas. 

The first and last Adam were both humans (not god-men).  In this they were equal. Adam understood good and bad BEFORE he sinned - and so did Jesus before he died. Through his disobedient actions Adam brought sin and death; through obedience Jesus bought us life.  I did not mislead anyone with this statement!

Unless you think you understand it better - then give the scriptures to prove this!

[xero]

9 minutes ago, Arauna said:

You did not say much. Show us where we went scripturally wrong and we will listen. At least I am prepared to listen.  Instead of adding something you just condemned and therefore agree with those who actually do not accept the bible as their guideline but their own ideas. 

The first and last Adam were both humans (not god-men).  In this they were equal. Adam understood good and bad BEFORE he sinned - and so did Jesus before he died. Through his disobedient actions Adam brought sin and death; through obedience Jesus bought us life.  I did not mislead anyone with this statement!

Unless you think you understand it better - then give the scriptures to prove this!

I think you're under the impression that I bothered reading everyone's remarks. I didn't. Nor do I need to to know everyone is just engaging in some sort of scriptural fencing exercise or shadow boxing. At this point in the online world every argument is almost useless if the goal is to convince someone other than ones self. Anyone who wants to find an answer to literally any question can google it and read and agree or read and disagree. In the end Jehovah will judge whatever it is you've judged and judge it rightly. Sure, people are going to go at it and maybe it keeps them sharp, but in no way is it anything in my view other than an exercise.

In the online world you can never know if someone isn't just wasting your time. (like I am even now)