Jump to content

Jack Ryan

Sam Herd Compares Shunning your own Children to Casting out Demons.

Topic Summary

Created

Last Reply

Replies

Views

Jack Ryan -
Space Merchant -
65
1847

Top Posters


Recommended Posts

On 8/10/2018 at 11:57 PM, Jack Ryan said:

This comes from the final talk at the Birmingham, AL Convention. Herd talks kind of low and there is some background noise, so here is a transcript starting at about 1:25.

You have a disfellowshipped grown child. Either a male or female, daughter or son. Disfellowshipped, grown child, not living at home. They have their own place to live. How do you treat them? Do you treat them as disfellowshipped? That’s what the bible says you should do. Now of course thereÂ’s things you can do. Now I donÂ’t have to tell you what you can do, you know what you can do. But think about what you should do. ThatÂ’s the thing you want to be careful of. Well do we have any background on that? Yes. Once the demons were thrown out of JehovahÂ’s house, they were not permitted back in. That tell you something? Nope canÂ’t come back. CanÂ’t spoil the rest. “Not gonna let you do it,” Jehovah says. Out you go, out you stay.

I thought this was interesting because it doesn't appear to be in the talk outline. Admittedly, I just skimmed through the outline quickly, so it might be in there. Either way, there is something twisted about comparing the shunning of children to casting out demons from heaven.

Edit: For those wondering, this talk is from August 5. The part before when the transcript starts is Herd talking about King Asa removing his grandmother from her position.

Here we have a fine example of the GB acting like the Pharisees by lumping heavy loads on peoples backs. So many people criticize me when i say this, but this is a good example of the GB making it up as they go along. So, do you really think the GB are the 'faithful and discreet slave' ? Would Jesus have told people to treat their families in this way when he told people to love their enemies ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 8/11/2018 at 12:04 AM, Jack Ryan said:

Strange how he doesn't quote a bible verse, he just states that the Bible "clearly says" you should shun your family members, your own children.

If the Bible clearly says you should do that, why can't you quote any scriptures? Because there are none. Nowhere in the Bible does it say anything like that.

So many times the GB make it up as they go along. In my opinion it shows they are not the 'Faithful and discreet slave class'. They are more like the wicked slave class that says 'the master is delaying' and then they start to mistreat the congregation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/11/2018 at 12:17 AM, JW Insider said:

It's not a new point. A disfellowshipped, grown child, not living at home should be shunned by the family except for absolutely necessary business that may need to be conducted with the child. This "child" is at least 18. The economy since 2008 has wreaked havoc with this rule, because so many more children in the 18-30 category are no longer able to get out on their own, and more disfellowshipped "children" in that age group claim it's economically necessary to remain at home.

Are you saying that a disfellowshipped child SHOULD be shunned ? If so, what gives you the right to make that decision ? Has God through Jesus Christ given you authority ?  Show me three scriptures that you base your decision on. Not one but three. Jesus said to love our enemies and to even pray for them. Would Jesus tell us to disown our families ? I think not. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Are you saying that a disfellowshipped child SHOULD be shunned ? If so, what gives you the right to make that decision ? Has God through Jesus Christ given you authority ?  Show me three scriptures that you base your decision on. Not one but three. Jesus said to love our enemies and to even pray for them. Would Jesus tell us to disown our families ? I think not. 

We should shun what is bad and hold on to what is good. I personally have the right to "mark" anyone I wish in the congregation to personally shun them, if I feel that I have tried to make amends with them, yet my association with them is not good for our spiritual goals. I even knew two members of the Governing Body, Brother Ted Jaracz and Brother Lloyd Barry, who had shunned each other since about 1949. They had both served at the Australian Branch where Jaracz had been sent in 1946 to be the new Branch Overseer, only to be rather quickly called back to the United States to serve as a Circuit Overseer for about 20 years starting in Missouri (where my own family had moved in '64 to 'serve where the need was greater' and an uncle of mine also served as a circuit overseer near his circuit). Brother Barry, in 1949 was sent to become the new Branch Overseer in Japan, which he did for the next 25 years, or so. They would barely speak together or be seen together even after both came to Brooklyn to serve on the Governing Body starting in 1975. Some could pick up on the "animosity" that still showed at Annual Meetings and a couple of Gilead Graduations well into the 1980's. (The 1990's too, I'm told, but I was never in a place to see it then.)

This seemed to me to be an even more definitive form of shunning than the purpose of "marking" found in 2 Thess:

  • (2 Thessalonians 3:13-15) 13 For YOUR part, brothers, do not give up in doing right. 14 But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed. 15 And yet do not be considering him as an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother.

Now, you might say, but these were grown men, not members of the same family, yet Jesus said, even of family members:

  • (Matthew 10:34-36) . . .Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.

There are good procedures to handle issues of cleanliness and morality that come up in the congregation, and they include a process found in Matthew 18 to discuss issues with a brother who may have sinned against you personally.

  • (Matthew 18:15-20) 15 “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector. 18 “Truly I say to you, whatever things you may bind on earth will be things already bound in heaven, and whatever things you may loosen on earth will be things already loosened in heaven. 19 Again I tell you truly, if two of you on earth agree concerning anything of importance that they should request, it will take place for them on account of my Father in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”

So, we personally have a right, and in some cases an obligation to shun others if it is a part of keeping the congregation clean. But this does not mean that we shun to the extent that we are creating emotional blackmail. It means that we don't go out of our way to associate when that type of association could be interpreted as sharing with the brother (or sister) in their wicked works. We would never go out of our way to prove ourselves inhospitable. "Let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector" just means that we have gone a little farther than marking them so as to admonish them as a brother. We are trying to not give the appearance that their conduct reflects on the type of conduct that the majority of the congregation condone.

If we go too far, and forget our "natural affection" we have been overreached by Satan:

  • (2 Corinthians 2:5-11) 5 Now if anyone has caused sadness, he has saddened, not me, but all of YOU to an extent—not to be too harsh in what I say. 6 This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man, 7 so that, on the contrary now, YOU should kindly forgive and comfort [him], that somehow such a man may not be swallowed up by his being overly sad. 8 Therefore I exhort YOU to confirm YOUR love for him. 9 For to this end also I write to ascertain the proof of YOU, whether YOU are obedient in all things. 10 Anything YOU kindly forgive anyone, I do too. In fact, as for me, whatever I have kindly forgiven, if I have kindly forgiven anything, it has been for YOUR sakes in Christ’s sight; 11 that we may not be overreached by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his designs.

Assuming the person is no longer practicing a sin that brings reproach if the congregation were to condone it, then the rebuke by the majority was enough. If the person does not wish to come back to the congregation, that is their business. We are not in the business of keeping track of the injury and shunning just because they willingly went out from us. They are as a person of the nations, and we feel no animosity toward persons of the nations.

  • (1 Corinthians 5:9-11) 9 In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.

If the person no longer wishes to be a brother, we have no reason to keep shunning that person. They are just like any other person of the world, which we treat respectfully and civilly and with no hard feelings about their past. We simply don't wish to accidentally give the impression that someone who presents himself as a brother is representing the Christian congregation.

Just how formal these processes need to be, might vary from congregation to congregation. Just how quickly a person is forgiven after a rebuke might vary too. The congregation is in a good place to know how a person's reputation and actions reflect on the reputation of the congregation itself.

So, yes, I can think of reasons I might shun even a member of my own family. If he were a child abuser, for example, who drags down the reputation of the congregation I would shun my own family member. I would still deal with him as needed, and never ignore a cry for help or a phone call. I would check up on his well-being and might even make sure he continues to get the material help he needs, even spiritual admonishment. But this is after at least a short period of making my displeasure clear through [probably a short] period of shunning, and thereby making sure that our own conduct doesn't appear to condone the conduct and thereby reflect badly on Jehovah's name and the Christian congregation. That might be an extreme example to make the point, but if it's true of one form of conduct, then it is also true to some extent for other forms of conduct. The rebuke and punishment should fit the crime.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

We should shun what is bad and hold on to what is good. I personally have the right to "mark" anyone I wish in the congregation to personally shun them, if I feel that I have tried to make amends with them, yet my association with them is not good for our spiritual goals. I even knew two members of the Governing Body, Brother Ted Jaracz and Brother Lloyd Barry, who had shunned each other since about 1949. They had both served at the Australian Branch where Jaracz had been sent in 1946 to be the new Branch Overseer, only to be rather quickly called back to the United States to serve as a Circuit Overseer for about 20 years starting in Missouri (where my own family had moved in '64 to 'serve where the need was greater' and an uncle of mine also served as a circuit overseer near his circuit). Brother Barry, in 1949 was sent to become the new Branch Overseer in Japan, which he did for the next 25 years, or so. They would barely speak together or be seen together even after both came to Brooklyn to serve on the Governing Body starting in 1975. Some could pick up on the "animosity" that still showed at Annual Meetings and a couple of Gilead Graduations well into the 1980's. (The 1990's too, I'm told, but I was never in a place to see it then.)

This seemed to me to be an even more definitive form of shunning than the purpose of "marking" found in 2 Thess:

  • (2 Thessalonians 3:13-15) 13 For YOUR part, brothers, do not give up in doing right. 14 But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed. 15 And yet do not be considering him as an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother.

Now, you might say, but these were grown men, not members of the same family, yet Jesus said, even of family members:

  • (Matthew 10:34-36) . . .Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.

There are good procedures to handle issues of cleanliness and morality that come up in the congregation, and they include a process found in Matthew 18 to discuss issues with a brother who may have sinned against you personally.

  • (Matthew 18:15-20) 15 “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector. 18 “Truly I say to you, whatever things you may bind on earth will be things already bound in heaven, and whatever things you may loosen on earth will be things already loosened in heaven. 19 Again I tell you truly, if two of you on earth agree concerning anything of importance that they should request, it will take place for them on account of my Father in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”

So, we personally have a right, and in some cases an obligation to shun others if it is a part of keeping the congregation clean. But this does not mean that we shun to the extent that we are creating emotional blackmail. It means that we don't go out of our way to associate when that type of association could be interpreted as sharing with the brother (or sister) in their wicked works. We would never go out of our way to prove ourselves inhospitable. "Let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector" just means that we have gone a little farther than marking them so as to admonish them as a brother. We are trying to not give the appearance that their conduct reflects on the type of conduct that the majority of the congregation condone.

If we go too far, and forget our "natural affection" we have been overreached by Satan:

  • (2 Corinthians 2:5-11) 5 Now if anyone has caused sadness, he has saddened, not me, but all of YOU to an extent—not to be too harsh in what I say. 6 This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man, 7 so that, on the contrary now, YOU should kindly forgive and comfort [him], that somehow such a man may not be swallowed up by his being overly sad. 8 Therefore I exhort YOU to confirm YOUR love for him. 9 For to this end also I write to ascertain the proof of YOU, whether YOU are obedient in all things. 10 Anything YOU kindly forgive anyone, I do too. In fact, as for me, whatever I have kindly forgiven, if I have kindly forgiven anything, it has been for YOUR sakes in Christ’s sight; 11 that we may not be overreached by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his designs.

Assuming the person is no longer practicing a sin that brings reproach if the congregation were to condone it, then the rebuke by the majority was enough. If the person does not wish to come back to the congregation, that is their business. We are not in the business of keeping track of the injury and shunning just because they willingly went out from us. They are as a person of the nations, and we feel no animosity toward persons of the nations.

  • (1 Corinthians 5:9-11) 9 In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.

If the person no longer wishes to be a brother, we have no reason to keep shunning that person. They are just like any other person of the world, which we treat respectfully and civilly and with no hard feelings about their past. We simply don't wish to accidentally give the impression that someone who presents himself as a brother is representing the Christian congregation.

Just how formal these processes need to be, might vary from congregation to congregation. Just how quickly a person is forgiven after a rebuke might vary too. The congregation is in a good place to know how a person's reputation and actions reflect on the reputation of the congregation itself.

So, yes, I can think of reasons I might shun even a member of my own family. If he were a child abuser, for example, who drags down the reputation of the congregation I would shun my own family member. I would still deal with him as needed, and never ignore a cry for help or a phone call. I would check up on his well-being and might even make sure he continues to get the material help he needs, even spiritual admonishment. But this is after at least a short period of making my displeasure clear through [probably a short] period of shunning, and thereby making sure that our own conduct doesn't appear to condone the conduct and thereby reflect badly on Jehovah's name and the Christian congregation. That might be an extreme example to make the point, but if it's true of one form of conduct, then it is also true to some extent for other forms of conduct. The rebuke and punishment should fit the crime.

You have changed what you first said, to what you personally think you should do. Firstly you said a child should be shunned. Now you are saying that you have the right to shun. Two totally different things. Of course you have the right to do as you wish, but do you have the right to make rules for others ? I ask you has Jehovah given you that right ? 

I think you might just be an elder the way you misuse scripture.

The Matthew 10 scripture surely is aimed at a family in which some accept the JW version of the 'truth' and some bitterly oppose it.  

Something strange in my ex congregation. A woman is a sister and has been for many years. Her husband is not interested in the 'truth' from the JW Org. However the husband goes to all the friendly gatherings of his wife's group and is well accepted. Isn't he as bad as a disfellowshipped person ?  Surely he is bad association if he does not want to know about God and God's purpose ? But because he has never been a JW he is allowed and accepted to be part of the gatherings. 

I find it amusing your comment about if a family member was a Child Abuser. And this is where i think you are an elder. Your concern is only about that he might drag down the reputation of the congregation.. You say you would shun him, but you do not say you would report him to the police or outside authorities.... This below was someone else's comment on the previous page. Think about it.   

We must not overlook the sobering fact that, at the present time, the words of Romans 13:3-4 still hold true regarding the secular authorities:

"For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad."

How true this is, so why oh why did the GB withhold so much information from those secular authorities ?  Maybe everyone should shun the Governing Body ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

.etc. I sound stupid to myself because making so many variables. Don't you think the same Anna?

I simply think that it would be unreasonable to expect a family that lives together, as a family unit, to ignore one another. A family unit has a basic structure and this structure should be unaffected, otherwise it would become a dysfunctional family unit, and nobody wants that. When the children leave, then they set up their own family unit. They are no longer a unit with their mom and dad and siblings, and can do whatever they want in their own family (regardless where they live, but usually they will live separately from the original family unit). So really there is only one variable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Anna said:

I simply think that it would be unreasonable to expect a family that lives together, as a family unit, to ignore one another. A family unit has a basic structure and this structure should be unaffected, otherwise it would become a dysfunctional family unit, and nobody want's that. When the children leave, then they set up their own family unit. They are no longer a unit with their mom and dad and siblings, and can do whatever they want in their own family. So really there is only one variable.

Anna, there are so many different families living in so many different ways that the GB has no right to give blanket orders as to what a person should or should not do. Where grandchildren are involved, old parents involved, so many different things.  

I still say that Jesus said we should 'Love our enemies and pray for them'. So why would Jesus want us to ignore or shun our families ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

one of the dangers or fears was going to be whether or not the name or position of one of the perpetrators was going to be revealed.

But hearing this, and knowing how the brother who told me was deeply concerned that the truth not come out, I wondered the same thing. I thought maybe it should come out. (Per Ephesians 5:10-13)

Not long ago we had a situation in our congregation with a brother who was addicted to prescription drugs to the point where he got in serious trouble with the law. The nail in his coffin came though when he decided to come to the meeting for FS when the CO was here, inebriated. Yes, you read correctly. Anyway, the brothers wanted to take him home, short of manhandling him to stop him from driving off,  but they didn't succeed, so the CO and another brother followed him in their car to make sure he got home safely.  On the way, the inebriated brother managed to mount the sidewalk and crash into a traffic light post. Thankfully no one was hurt. But what I found curious was that the CO quickly made sure all our literature was out of that brothers car before the police arrived.

My husband and I later discussed this and realised that this was a good example of the mentality we have, to always give the appearance that we are morally on a higher ground, have the cleanest buildings, best equipment, perfect little families etc. (I recalled when you gave the experience of Bethel not wining the first place in cleanliness award (or something like that) and how one of the brothers was extremely upset about it).  It is no wonder then that we get dishonest when things are not quite so. But on a much more serious note, as you mentioned, it also causes us to cover over things that should NOT be covered over, such as child abuse. 

It is a heavy burden "carrying the utensils of Jehovah" and yet being riddled with the imperfections that plagues every single human being on earth.

It would be nice if one day we can be candid, open and honest about our failings. I think we are trying, in an indirect way. The last WT lessons pointing to the failings of Moses and Aaron and others shows that no one is exempt, not even those in leadership roles. And of course we know the "Slave" has put in print that they make mistakes (no kidding xD). But this mentality, that we have a reputation to uphold, regardless whether actual reality is different, is deeply ingrained.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

there are so many different families living in so many different ways

True, but I only pointed out one way that actually applies to our discussion. The classic family unit, where children, whatever age, are still subject to their parents. That is where disfellowshipping will have this affect: "The religious ties he had with his family change, but blood ties remain. The marriage relationship and normal family affections and dealings continue."

That is what we were discussing on here wasn't it?

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Where grandchildren are involved, old parents involved, so many different things.  

Yes, so many different things. Which means that each person has to asses their unique situation and act accordingly. It is up to each individual in the end, the GB cannot make you do anything.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Anna said:

But what I found curious was that the CO quickly made sure all our literature was out of that brothers car before the police arrived.

I've heard of this type of thinking. My father was the presiding overseer when a wayward Witness was running around with a group that that got arrested for committing an armed robbery. My father called the Society's Service Department in Brooklyn for advice, and our Circuit Overseer called him back shortly and asked, in effect: "How quickly can you get him disfellowshipped?" To my father, this meant, how soon could you make contact with the arrested man, and ask the kind of questions that would allow this "fallen" brother to admit that he had recently been repeatedly committing sins without a proper level of remorse. Also, I think even in those days, my father would have to arrange for another "servant" in the congregation to be secretly listening in on the line.

As I recall the idea of acting on this so quickly kind of fell through anyway. Even though this was around 1970, I was 13, and it didn't occur to me at the time that this was really not just. At that time, we were still saying that a disfellowshipped person would die at Armageddon by default. Another case like this, I recall from another congregation happened around 1978, and another one I was told about (unconfirmed, though) from just a few years ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Similar Content

    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      Church ‘shuns‘ 15-year-old, then father – ends up in court
      Posted by SDD Contributor on November 9, 2019 at 4:20 am  
      The Supreme Court of Canada heard arguments Thursday in a lawsuit against a religious congregation’s “shunning” practice, but the congregation and several other groups contend the justices had no right to even take part in the case.
      Randy Wall, a real estate agent, filed the suit against the Highwood congregation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization in Calgary, Alberta.
      Wall was expelled from the congregation for getting drunk and not be properly repentant, court records said. He pursued an appeals process through the Jehovah’s Witnesses then went to court because he said the Witnesses’ “shunning” — the practice of not associating with him in any way — hurt his business.
      He explained his two occasions of drunkenness related to “the previous expulsion by the congregation of his 15-year-old daughter.”
      A lower court opinion said: “Even though the daughter was a dependent child living at home, it was a mandatory church edict that the entire family shun aspects of their relationship with her. The respondent said the edicts of the church pressured the family to evict their daughter from the family home. This led to … much distress in the family.”
      The “distress” eventually resulted in his drunkenness, Wall said.
       
      Wall submitted to the court arguments that about half his client base, members of various Jehovah’s Witnesses congregations, then refused to conduct business with him. He alleged the “disfellowship had an economic impact on the respondent.”
      During high court arguments Thursday, the congregation asked the justices to rule that religious congregations are immune to such claims in the judicial system.
      The lower courts had ruled that the courts could play a role in determining whether or not such circumstances rise to the level of violating civil rights or injuring a “disfellowshipped” party.
      The rulings from the Court of Queen’s Bench and the Alberta Court of Appeals said Wall’s case was subject to secular court jurisdiction.
      A multitude of religious and political organizations joined with the congregation in arguing that Canada’s courts should not be involved.
      The Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms said in a filing: “The wish or desire of one person to associate with an unwilling person (or an unwilling group) is not a legal right of any kind. For a court, or the government, to support such a ‘right’ violates the right of self-determination of the unwilling parties.”
      Previous case law has confirmed the right of religious or private voluntary groups to govern themselves and dictate who can be a member.
      But previously rulings also reveal there is room for the court system to intervene when the question centers on property or civil rights.
      The Association for Reformed Political Action described the case as having “profound implications for the separation of church and state.”
      It contends the court should keep its hands off the argument.
      “Secular judges have no authority and no expertise to review a church membership decision,” said a statement from Andre Schutten, a spokesman for the group. “Church discipline is a spiritual matter falling within spiritual jurisdiction, not a legal matter falling within the courts’ civil jurisdiction. The courts should not interfere.”
      John Sikkema, staff lawyer for ARPA, said: “The issue in this appeal is jurisdiction. A state actor, including a court, must never go beyond its jurisdiction. The Supreme Court must consider what kind of authority the courts can or cannot legitimately claim. We argue that the civil government and churches each have limited and distinct spheres of authority. This basic distinction between civil and spiritual jurisdiction is a source of freedom and religious pluralism and a guard against civic totalism.”
      He continued: “Should the judiciary have the authority to decide who gets to become or remain a church member? Does the judiciary have the authority to decide who does or does not get to participate in the sacraments? Church discipline is a spiritual matter falling within spiritual jurisdiction, not a legal matter falling within the courts’ civil jurisdiction. The courts should not interfere. Here we need separation of church and state.”
      The Alberta Court of Appeal, however, suggested the case was about more than ecclesiastical rules.
      “Because Jehovah’s Witnesses shun disfellowshipped members, his wife, other children and other Jehovah’s Witnesses were compelled to shun him,” that lower court decision said. “The respondent asked the appeal committee to consider the mental and emotional distress he and his family were under as a result of his duaghter’s disfellowship.”
      The church committee concluded he was “not sufficiently repentant.”
      The ruling said “the only basis for establishing jurisdiction over a decision of the church is when the complaint involves property and civil rights,” and that is what Wall alleged.
      “Accordingly, a court has jurisdiction to review the decision of a religious organization when a breach of the rules of natural justice is alleged.”
       
                     
    • By Jack Ryan
      I'm a 21 yo PIMO on the West coast. My family and I attended a wedding this past Saturday and I was completely disgusted by my family's and congregation's behavior.
      The couple that got married are both studies, so they didn't get married at the Kingdom Hall. However they requested an elder to give the wedding ceremony talk (and I call it a talk because it was 95% scriptures and 5% about the couple) and they invited mostly JWs aside from their families.
      Everything was going pretty well, until about 40 min after the ceremony. I just finished eating when my dad whispered to my brother and I that we had to leave because there was a DF'd woman that was invited. I sincerely apologised to the couple for leaving because I felt awful that I had to play along with all of the invited JWs and awkwardly leave the wedding so soon.
      Once my family was in the car, I asked my dad who the woman was. He revealed to me that it was the groom's mom. Apparently a couple of elders went and talked to her and asked her to leave. She refused, so they let her know that we'll all be leaving.
      I was shocked and appalled at the insanity of the situation I found myself in. This couple isn't even baptised and they invited more JWs than family to their wedding only to have them all leave because the groom's mom is in attendance. To top it all off, the brothers afterwards were saying stuff like: "I can't believe that she could be that selfish" and "Aw that poor couple, because of ONE person, everyone had to leave. She totally ruined their wedding".
      The indoctrination is insane in this cult, of fucking course the groom is going to invite his own mother to his wedding. I can't believe that I'm expected to feel offended at the mother for refusing to leave her son's wedding. I really hope that the newlyweds see this as crystal-clear evidence that this is a cult.
      - Contributed
      --------------------------------
      Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbor to him who fell among the robbers?"
      He said, "He who showed mercy on him."
      Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise... Unless they're dfed then leave em to die."
       
      --------------------------------
      Their actions are codified as follows:
      *** w81 9/15 p. 30 par. 23 If a Relative Is Disfellowshiped . . . ***
      "There is no point in looking for some rule as to family members being at gatherings where a disfellowshiped relative might be present. This would be something for those concerned to resolve, in keeping with Paul’s counsel. (1 Cor. 5:11) And yet it should be appreciated that if a disfellowshiped person is going to be at a gathering to which nonrelative Witnesses are invited, that may well affect what others do. For example, a Christian couple might be getting married at a Kingdom Hall. If a disfellowshiped relative comes to the Kingdom Hall for the wedding, obviously he could not be in the bridal party there or “give away” the bride. What, though, if there is a wedding feast or reception? This can be a happy social occasion, as it was in Cana when Jesus attended. (John 2:1, 2) But will the disfellowshiped relative be allowed to come or even be invited? If he was going to attend, many Christians, relatives or not, might conclude that they should not be there, to eat and associate with him, in view of Paul’s directions at 1 Corinthians 5:11."
      No rule given LOL, gotta love Watchtwer's constant plausible deniability wording.
    • By Jack Ryan
      A Norwegian JW woman, who was sexually abused, was disfellowshipped for fornication. The woman first appealed inside the organization - without success. Feeling injustice, she then decided to sue Jehovah's Witnesses. The court decided last month that the disfellowshipping was against the Norwegian law and must be canceled. The court also ordered the local Jehovah's Witness organization to pay 100 000 NOK to the woman.
      Here is the story, in a Norwegian newspaper.
    • By JOHN BUTLER
      I do find it kinda' funny that JW's love to talk about billions of people being removed / destroyed / killed / murdered at Armageddon. Billions of people.
      And for what ? Well JW's say it's for not serving God. But they will also say it's for not being a baptised JW. 
      Well we do know for sure that God either deliberately had, or deliberately allowed, the destruction of Jerusalem in circa 70 C E, and for what ? 
      Well the Bible shows us it was for not serving God properly, and for killing God's son. 
      BUT when I suggest that the Governing Body should be removed or destroyed, oh dear, the JW's they get really upset ya know. 
      Governing Body = 8 men.   Jerusalem = how many, men, women and children, thousands of them. 
      But oh dear, now it would be murder. So what was it back then ?  Your see JW's live in a dream world, wrapped up in cotton wool, they just cannot face the real world.
      The Governing Body do not serve God properly. That is clearly visible to anyone that honestly wants to see it. 
      The Governing Body are destroying JW Org, and if JW Org is God's true Organisation then the GB are deliberately working against God and against God's intentions. 
      Humans that deliberately work against God and cause problems for God do not last long on this Earth. 
      The Bible shows much proof of this, such as those that opposed Moses. 
      I am expecting the GB to be removed, one way or another. But only if God really wants to use the JW Org / Watchtower soc for His own purposes. 
      If God does not want to use those Orgs then it would seem sensible for God to set up a new Org for His purposes. 
      The only problem with the GB being 'removed' is that JW's will call it a 'sign of the times' and 'persecution', but if God causes the removal then I'm sure He will put them straight. 
      Those people that say that the GB cannot be removed / destroyed, are those people that worship the GB. And those people that worship the GB may probably need removing too. 
      The world is wicked, it belongs to Satan. The Earth is wonderful and it belongs to Almighty God.
      For God to save this Earth and for Him to save a few humans too, drastic things have to take place. Drastic things have to take place.
       
    • By Albert Michelson
      What is the good news?
       
      The Bible is clear that even if someone had been clearly selected by god if they deviate from the truth they are to be rejected. 
       
      Galatians 1:8-9 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed.  9 As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed.
       
      This holds even more weight for ones like the GB who are not clearly selected and who's claim to authority rests solely on a demonstrably false interpretation of scripture.
      The organization claims that the 1914 teaching is necessary for salvation and even goes as far as to claim that the 1914 teaching is the good news spoken of in the Bible.
      *** w67 12/15 pp. 753-754 pars. 3-4 What Now Distinguishes the Good News to Be Preached ***
      "What a joy-inspiring addition or enlargement to the good news now to be preached! Now has come the victorious kingdom of our God together with the authority of his Christ, his Messiah! As for Satan the Devil and his demons, they have only a short period of time until they are bound and imprisoned in the abyss after the “war of the great day of God the Almighty” at Armageddon. All this additional wonderful information has been true since the end of the “appointed times of the nations” in 1914, and particularly since World War I closed in the year 1918. Not before the “appointed times of the nations” ended in the fall of 1914 could the good news be preached of the newborn, established heavenly kingdom of God and of his Messiah. This, then, must be the good news that Jesus Christ in his prophecy said had to be preached first in all the nations. (Mark 13:10) This generation of human society that has seen and experienced the world events since the Gentile Times closed in 1914—this is the “generation” that will not pass away until all the things foretold have happened, including the preaching of the good news first in all nations.
      4 Jesus’ prophecy in Mark 13:10, “Also, in all the nations the good news has to be preached first,” has not been undergoing fulfillment during the past nineteen centuries. It is only since the second decade of our twentieth century that this prophecy has been undergoing fulfillment. This began to be realized by the International Bible Students Association and the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society since the end of the second decade of our century. In the magazine issue of July 1, 1920, of The Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence the article was published entitled “Gospel of the Kingdom” and based on the theme text, “‘And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.’—Matthew 24:14.”
       It is for this reason that the organization is chained to the 1914 teaching. As the scripture I quoted above demonstrates the Bible says that one who teaches a good news that is false is cursed. If the organization admits that the 1914 and 1919 teachings are false they will have to admit that not only were they not selected as gods channel but that they have been teaching a false good news for the majority of their existence. It is for that reason that they disfellowship and shun people who cannot conscientiously remain in the faith. It's easier to just eliminate the opposition then to actually address the real issues with your theology. 
      *** w86 4/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***
      Why have Jehovah’s Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?
       
      "Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. What do such beliefs include?
       
      That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah’s sovereignty, which is why he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence. (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15–12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ’s Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present “great crowd” of Jesus’ “other sheep.”—John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3, 4."
       
      This is supposedly a list of the fundamental doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses that all are required to believe. You will in most cases be disfellowshiped for not believing in one or more of them. Unfortunately the truth is most of them are false.
    • By Jack Ryan
      If the love you have for your children is predicated on their beliefs, you don't love your children you love YOUR beliefs
    • By Jack Ryan
      In previous decades, when someone was disfellowshipped, they were told their time would be 6 months. Now it’s a full year?
      Why did that change from 6 mo to a year? and are they getting more ppl to come back with the increased time? With the less members staying in the org, you would think they want to lower the “jail time “
      Also are there any other religions that gives you months or years of time out, if you commit a sin, even if you actually want to come back?
      Also any former elders here? Why is there a standard set time for everyone? And why can they reject someone’s letter who wants to come back? Don’t they need more members ?
    • By Jack Ryan
      Jehovah's Witness Organization Redefines Shunning to Falsely.mp4
      Every JW visiting this page should MORALLY comment below and publicly state that this JW Lawyer is LYING through his teeth to the Canadian Supreme Court.
      If you don't, YOU participate in this gross sin. Because you ALL KNOW this is a false statement.
      Remember as well that this JW Lawyer is also an Officer of the Court.
      What the courts do not know is that JW's consider outright lying in court a part of "theocratic warfare" just like Muslims do. So it is a virtue to them.

      SMH.
      Can you spell P-E-R-J-U-R-Y?
    • By Jack Ryan
      "Sunday, December 30
      Asa’s heart was complete with Jehovah all his life.—1 Ki. 15:14.
      Each of us can examine his heart to see if it is fully devoted to God. Ask yourself, ‘Am I determined to please Jehovah, to defend true worship, and to protect his people from any corrupting influence?’ For example, what if someone close to you has to be disfellowshipped? Would you take decisive action by ceasing to associate with that person? What would your heart move you to do? Like Asa, you can show that you have a complete heart by fully relying on God when you are faced with opposition, even some that may seem insurmountable. You may be teased or ridiculed at school for taking a stand as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Or colleagues at work may taunt you for taking days off for spiritual activities or for not often working overtime. In such situations, pray to God, just as Asa did. (2 Chron. 14:11) Remain firm for what you know is right and wise. Remember that God strengthened and helped Asa, and He will strengthen you.
      w17.03 3:6-8 "
      https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/dt/r1/lp-e/2018/12/30
    • By Jack Ryan
      This was a case where in June 1987, the United States Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit upheld the Witnesses' right to shun those who fail to live by the group's standards and doctrines, upholding the ruling of a lower court.
      http://openjurist.org/819/f2d/875
      Has there been any cases after this, where DF cases went to court? Have there been cases in other countries were DF decisions were challenged and reversed?
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      Here in the United States we have Cable TV with such things as "History Channel", "Discovery Channel", "Scifi Channel", and "A&E" the "Arts and Entertainment Channel".  Apparently around November 13 of this year they had a famous (?) TV star, Leah Remini,  who had been a Scientologist since she was eight years old turn Apostate, and she has done at least two TV seasons exposing the ills of the Church of Scientology", do an Expose' of Jehovah's Witnesses.
      I do not watch TV as a rule, and missed it, and I spent a few days looking for it and trying to download a copy.  It was not on YouTube, but I did find it under "Aftermath Jehovah's Witnesses" on the Russian equivalent of YouTube, "Rutube.ru". It would not download with my usual download software, so I had to find a free screen capture software, which took about four hours to get the settings just right, and I was able to download the two hour program from my monitor, as it was playing.
      Therefore, I watched the TV program three times, as I experimented with the settings to get a good screen copy to my hard drive..
      I could see both sides of the program viewpoints presented, and did not find us to be misrepresented in any way whatsoever ... but if there was EVER a clear example of the Law of Unintended Consequences, the horror the Governing Body has caused in disfellowshipping the way that it is currently done ... by ripping families apart, and creating  irreparable damage that can never be corrected with reinstatement, was chilling, and puts us in the same class as Scientologists ... which completely disregarding the horror and hardsip, and cruelty without any mercy whatsoever it creates locally, shames Jehovah's Name and Reputation over the whole planet.
      I don't believe there is anything a local Jehovah's Witness could do ... rob a bank ... have a harem ... have sex with horses ... etc., ad nauseum ... that would besmirch Jehovah's name and reputation globally as much as our current blatantly cruel public policies of destroying whole families for the sins of one person.
      I am very glad to have the education I have to know that the TRUTH is still the truth .... even though the 85% drivel has rotted and fermented into rotten sewage.
      Most JWs do NOT have this educational advantage ... so their lives are permanently destroyed.
      I don't expect much from people, and almost NOTHING from groups of people .... so for me, like getting one of those great salads at the Olive Garden Restaurant, and finding a big chunk of solid sewage in it ... I hold my nose, and eat around it.
      This TV Special is global news .... what could I possibly say to the average person that would clear the Name of God, that the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, NOT THE TELEVISION PROGRAM, has corrupted by its Pharisaic policies that have real world consequences?
      The exact same thing happened in ancient Israel, and a system that God blessed and supported for a thousand years and more was abandoned by God.
      The exact same thing.
       
       
       
       
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      CAN A PERSON ... OR SHOULD A PERSON . BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED IN ABSTENSIA?
      Here is the situation .....  a person REPORTED to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses is accused, and NOT convicted ( ... because he is a fugitive from Justice ...) .....

      Apparently he was at one time in a "Position Of Authority", which possibly alludes to his being an  "Elder", and he may have relocated to another State or even another Country. Possibly using an alias.
      The  various Congregation Elders cannot find him, the Society cannot find him, and the U.S. Marshal's Service cannot find him.
      Not having any indication to the contrary ... at least from the information given in the pseudo-Wanted Poster shown above, he is possibly still officially one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
      Whether he is or not, his bad example raises an interesting  aspect of trying to figure out how the disfellowshipping "system" protocol actually works.
      Can any of the Congregations  he went to disfellowship him without his being present  to answer charges ?
      ... and SHOULD he be?
       
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      DO  WE STILL  DISFELLOWSHIP  THE  MENTALLY  ILL ?
      I was a teenager in the 60's,  and I had a good friend that on Scout camping trips I introduced to the Truth, and I was there in NYC at Yankee Stadium when he was baptized as one of Jehovah's Witness. He was a true "straight arrow", and pioneered, always dressed immaculately, and eventually over the years became an Elder.
      One night, at an Elder's Meeting, he announced to the other Elders that he was Jesus Christ, and that his mother was the virgin Mary, and of course he was disfellowshipped.
      He spent several years in private mental institutions until his insurance money ran out, then in a State institution for several years.
      He called me up, and told me the story, and I told him I was the Great Turtleman, and every November, before I hibernated, I rose from the swamp and gave toys to all the good little boys and girls.  I was just pulling his leg, but he was dead serious.
      Later, he was in England, while his wife was trying without success to get him to take his medications, and fell over a balcony at Heathrow Airport and got killed.
      DO  WE STILL  DISFELLOWSHIP  THE  MENTALLY  ILL ?
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      from 2016 the year that they started the return to Jehovah brochure.
    • By Jack Ryan
      a heartbreaking video has emerged online showing how far reaching and deeply ingrained this shunning policy is; a video showing JehovahÂ’s Witnesses clapping in applause as a little girl announces she is shunning her own sister.
      Little Melody, and the sister she doesnÂ’t have.
      The incident appears to take place at one of this years Watchtower conventions. The video was posted on youtube by the girls parents, apprently eager to share with the world how they had trained one of their children to pretend her sister didnÂ’t exist purely on the basis of religious dogma.
      The video was comment-protected once viewers began expressing concern and displeasure at what they saw, but at the time of writing the video itself is still live and can be viewed below on the family’s youtube page. (EDIT 11/09/2017 – The video has been removed, but we have linked to an alternate site which has a copy)

      t shows a little girl called Melody. She is ten years old, and was apparently baptised when she was 9. This means that Melody is now committed to the religion for life, and will be shunned if she ever leaves, or “unrepentantly” breaks any of its vast array of detailed rules.
      During the interview, Melody explains that she has a sister who was “disfellowshipped,” which is the Witness term for one who is excommunicated; someone who was thrown out of the faith rather than leaving of their own accord. We are not told the reason for the disfellowshipping, but one can be subjected to it for a wide range of reasons such as pre-marital sex, celebrating Christmas or birthdays, voting, taking a blood transfusion, joining the military, or simply questioning any of the doctrines of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
      Melody states that her sister was trying to contact her, and asking her to stay in contact despite Watchtower decreeing that she be shunned. Remember, MelodyÂ’s sister has probably lost all her family and friends at this point; everyone she ever knew and loved.
      Melody admits that she misses and loves her sister, but states that she was afraid that if she didnÂ’t cut her sister off completely, she might be tempted to keep some form of relationship going. Thus, she has decided to shun her completely, as Watchtower demands. She claims that this was to protect her relationship with Jehovah.
      The audience of JehovahÂ’s Witnesses watching this announcement applaud.
      Source
  • Forum Statistics

    61,658
    Total Topics
    114,357
    Total Posts
  • Member Statistics

    16,502
    Total Members
    1,592
    Most Online
    LYMJJ1110
    Newest Member
    LYMJJ1110
    Joined




  • Topics

  • Posts

    • -购买创意艺术大学书q/微1851304262造假创意艺术大学毕业证【购买成绩单】offer、办理学生卡、制作在读证明/英国假文凭假学历/可查学历认证书University for the Creative Arts 咨询办理专业海外留学生毕业证,咨询顾问CharlesQ/微:1851304262成绩单,教育部认证、留信认证、大使馆认证、假毕业证,制作假成绩单,仿造假文凭学历,购买假学历文凭,制做毕业证文凭,仿冒文凭毕业证,代办毕业证认证,留服认证,使馆认证,使馆公证,使馆证明,使馆留学回国人员证明,留学生认证,学历认证,文凭认证,学位认证,留学生学历认证,留学生学位认证,使馆认证(留学回国人员证明),学生卡(证),成绩单,在读证明,快速办理录取通知书offer 回国人员证明 一、快速办理材料: 1、毕,业证+成绩单+留学回国人员证明+教育部学历认证(全套留学回国必备证明材料,给父母及亲朋好友一份完美交代); 2、雅思、托福,OFFER,在读证明,学生卡等留学相关材料(申请学校、转学,甚至是申请工签都可以用到)。 注:上述材料,随时都可以安排办理,毕,业证成绩单,学校,专业,学位,毕业时间都可以根据客户要求安排。 二、办理流程: 1、收集客户办理信息; 2、客户付定金下单; 3、公司确认到账转制作点做电子图; 4、电子图做好发给客户确认; 5、电子图确认好转成品部做成品; 6、成品做好拍照或者视频确认再付余款; 7、快递给客户(国内顺丰,国外DHL)。 三、真实网上可查的证明材料 1、教育部学历学位认证,留服真实存档可查,存档。 2、留学回国人员证明(使馆认证),使馆网站真实存档可查。 四、办理流程 1、客户提供相关材料,确定客户办理信息,给出操作方案; 2、补充毕业证成绩单等相关材料; 3、留服注册申请账号,付定金; 4、预约递交时间,公司人员陪同客户本人一起去留服递交材料; 5、等待结果,完成结果书留服直接邮寄给客户 6、客户确认收到结果,付余款。 我们对海外大学及学院的毕业证成绩单所使用的材料,尺寸大小,防伪结构(包括:水印,阴影底纹,钢印LOGO烫金烫银,LOGO烫金烫银复合重叠。 文字图案浮雕,激光镭射,紫外荧光,温感,复印防伪)都有原版本文凭对照。质量得到了广大海外客户群体的认可,同时和海外学校留学中介, 同时能做到与时俱进,及时掌握各大院校的(毕业证,成绩单,资格证,学生卡,结业证,录取通知书,在读证明等相关材料)的版本更新信息, 能够在时间掌握的海外学历文凭的样版,尺寸大小,纸张材质,防伪技术等等,并在时间收集到原版 实物,以求达到客户的需求。 我们的优势: [效率优势]保证在约定的时间内完成任务,视频语音电话查询完成进度。 [品质优势]与学校颁发的相关证件1:1纸质尺寸制定(定期向各大院校毕业生购买版本毕业证成绩单保证您拿到的是学校内部版本毕业证成绩单) [保密优势]我们绝不向任何个人或组织泄露您的隐私,致力于在充分保护你隐私的前提下,为您提供更优质的体验和服务。完成交易,删除客户资料 [价格优势]我们在保证合理定价的同时,坚持较高性价比,通过品质和效率不断优化,为您倾情诠释什么是高性价比。 留信网认证的用途: 主要是提供境外院校资质查询,留学生专业人才证书申报,就业推荐这些服务,海外留学生高等院校学位成绩单认证和在读证明的翻译服务,提供留学生回国就业服务,可以人才存档,失业补贴,可以大额贷款等,.留学生就业指导,福利优惠政策证明学生的留学生身份可以在网上查询到留学时的相关信息、比如专业,入学和毕业时间什么。 回国人员证明的用途: 留学生回国重要的身份和经历证明及购买免税国产小汽车的凭证,而且在创办企业、安排工作、落转户口、子女入学、多生子女上户口、购置住房、申请国内各类科研基金、评定职称、报考公务员或研究生等方面都能够享受国家或各地、各单位给予留学回国人员的各种优惠政策或提供的各种便利条件。 学历认证的用途: 1.建立个人档案。个人档案中有学历一项,通过学历认证的佐证,可以进一步确立个人学历档案的真实性。 2.各种招考或招聘的学历证明。比如公务员或事业编或国有单位的招聘,都需要通过学历认证的查询和审核。 3.升学。比如专升本或考研究生等升学、入学,也需要通过学历认证,以确认考生的学历。 4.出国留学。世界上有很多国家与我们建立了互认学历关系,国外教育学校或机构通过学历认证系统,可以方便的确认中国学生的学历。相同,通过学历认证系统,中国也可以方便的确认国外学生的。 5.人才交流或调动。国内有很多城市实行人才交流或调动,其准入的基本条件也是学历层次问题,通过学历认证系统,可以方便的为准入城市提供真实的学历证明。 其它需要的证明。比如落户口、征兵、重要职业岗位,比如医生、律师、船长、机长、职称评定等,都需要相关的认证和审核。 一、快速办理材料: 1、毕业证+成绩单+留学回国人员证明+教育部学历认证(全套留学回国必备证明材料,给父母及亲朋好友一份完美交代); 2、雅思、托福,OFFER,在读证明,学生卡等留学相关材料(申请学校、转学,甚至是申请工签都可以用到)。 注:上述材料,随时都可以安排办理,毕业证成绩单,学校,专业,学位,毕业时间都可以根据客户要求制作购买创意艺术大学书q/微1851304262造假创意艺术大学毕业证【购买成绩单】offer、办理学生卡、制作在读证明/英国假文凭假学历/可查学历认证书University for the Creative Arts购买创意艺术大学书q/微1851304262造假创意艺术大学毕业证【购买成绩单】offer、办理学生卡、制作在读证明/英国假文凭假学历/可查学历认证书University for the Creative Arts购买创意艺术大学书q/微1851304262造假创意艺术大学毕业证【购买成绩单】offer、办理学生卡、制作在读证明/英国假文凭假学历/可查学历认证书University for the Creative Arts购买创意艺术大学书q/微1851304262造假创意艺术大学毕业证【购买成绩单】offer、办理学生卡、制作在读证明/英国假文凭假学历/可查学历认证书University for the Creative Arts7248勤发发
    • -购买创意艺术大学书q/微1851304262造假创意艺术大学毕业证【购买成绩单】offer、办理学生卡、制作在读证明/英国假文凭假学历/可查学历认证书University for the Creative Arts 咨询办理专业海外留学生毕业证,咨询顾问CharlesQ/微:1851304262成绩单,教育部认证、留信认证、大使馆认证、假毕业证,制作假成绩单,仿造假文凭学历,购买假学历文凭,制做毕业证文凭,仿冒文凭毕业证,代办毕业证认证,留服认证,使馆认证,使馆公证,使馆证明,使馆留学回国人员证明,留学生认证,学历认证,文凭认证,学位认证,留学生学历认证,留学生学位认证,使馆认证(留学回国人员证明),学生卡(证),成绩单,在读证明,快速办理录取通知书offer 回国人员证明 一、快速办理材料: 1、毕,业证+成绩单+留学回国人员证明+教育部学历认证(全套留学回国必备证明材料,给父母及亲朋好友一份完美交代); 2、雅思、托福,OFFER,在读证明,学生卡等留学相关材料(申请学校、转学,甚至是申请工签都可以用到)。 注:上述材料,随时都可以安排办理,毕,业证成绩单,学校,专业,学位,毕业时间都可以根据客户要求安排。 二、办理流程: 1、收集客户办理信息; 2、客户付定金下单; 3、公司确认到账转制作点做电子图; 4、电子图做好发给客户确认; 5、电子图确认好转成品部做成品; 6、成品做好拍照或者视频确认再付余款; 7、快递给客户(国内顺丰,国外DHL)。 三、真实网上可查的证明材料 1、教育部学历学位认证,留服真实存档可查,存档。 2、留学回国人员证明(使馆认证),使馆网站真实存档可查。 四、办理流程 1、客户提供相关材料,确定客户办理信息,给出操作方案; 2、补充毕业证成绩单等相关材料; 3、留服注册申请账号,付定金; 4、预约递交时间,公司人员陪同客户本人一起去留服递交材料; 5、等待结果,完成结果书留服直接邮寄给客户 6、客户确认收到结果,付余款。 我们对海外大学及学院的毕业证成绩单所使用的材料,尺寸大小,防伪结构(包括:水印,阴影底纹,钢印LOGO烫金烫银,LOGO烫金烫银复合重叠。 文字图案浮雕,激光镭射,紫外荧光,温感,复印防伪)都有原版本文凭对照。质量得到了广大海外客户群体的认可,同时和海外学校留学中介, 同时能做到与时俱进,及时掌握各大院校的(毕业证,成绩单,资格证,学生卡,结业证,录取通知书,在读证明等相关材料)的版本更新信息, 能够在时间掌握的海外学历文凭的样版,尺寸大小,纸张材质,防伪技术等等,并在时间收集到原版 实物,以求达到客户的需求。 我们的优势: [效率优势]保证在约定的时间内完成任务,视频语音电话查询完成进度。 [品质优势]与学校颁发的相关证件1:1纸质尺寸制定(定期向各大院校毕业生购买版本毕业证成绩单保证您拿到的是学校内部版本毕业证成绩单) [保密优势]我们绝不向任何个人或组织泄露您的隐私,致力于在充分保护你隐私的前提下,为您提供更优质的体验和服务。完成交易,删除客户资料 [价格优势]我们在保证合理定价的同时,坚持较高性价比,通过品质和效率不断优化,为您倾情诠释什么是高性价比。 留信网认证的用途: 主要是提供境外院校资质查询,留学生专业人才证书申报,就业推荐这些服务,海外留学生高等院校学位成绩单认证和在读证明的翻译服务,提供留学生回国就业服务,可以人才存档,失业补贴,可以大额贷款等,.留学生就业指导,福利优惠政策证明学生的留学生身份可以在网上查询到留学时的相关信息、比如专业,入学和毕业时间什么。 回国人员证明的用途: 留学生回国重要的身份和经历证明及购买免税国产小汽车的凭证,而且在创办企业、安排工作、落转户口、子女入学、多生子女上户口、购置住房、申请国内各类科研基金、评定职称、报考公务员或研究生等方面都能够享受国家或各地、各单位给予留学回国人员的各种优惠政策或提供的各种便利条件。 学历认证的用途: 1.建立个人档案。个人档案中有学历一项,通过学历认证的佐证,可以进一步确立个人学历档案的真实性。 2.各种招考或招聘的学历证明。比如公务员或事业编或国有单位的招聘,都需要通过学历认证的查询和审核。 3.升学。比如专升本或考研究生等升学、入学,也需要通过学历认证,以确认考生的学历。 4.出国留学。世界上有很多国家与我们建立了互认学历关系,国外教育学校或机构通过学历认证系统,可以方便的确认中国学生的学历。相同,通过学历认证系统,中国也可以方便的确认国外学生的。 5.人才交流或调动。国内有很多城市实行人才交流或调动,其准入的基本条件也是学历层次问题,通过学历认证系统,可以方便的为准入城市提供真实的学历证明。 其它需要的证明。比如落户口、征兵、重要职业岗位,比如医生、律师、船长、机长、职称评定等,都需要相关的认证和审核。 一、快速办理材料: 1、毕业证+成绩单+留学回国人员证明+教育部学历认证(全套留学回国必备证明材料,给父母及亲朋好友一份完美交代); 2、雅思、托福,OFFER,在读证明,学生卡等留学相关材料(申请学校、转学,甚至是申请工签都可以用到)。 注:上述材料,随时都可以安排办理,毕业证成绩单,学校,专业,学位,毕业时间都可以根据客户要求制作购买创意艺术大学书q/微1851304262造假创意艺术大学毕业证【购买成绩单】offer、办理学生卡、制作在读证明/英国假文凭假学历/可查学历认证书University for the Creative Arts购买创意艺术大学书q/微1851304262造假创意艺术大学毕业证【购买成绩单】offer、办理学生卡、制作在读证明/英国假文凭假学历/可查学历认证书University for the Creative Arts购买创意艺术大学书q/微1851304262造假创意艺术大学毕业证【购买成绩单】offer、办理学生卡、制作在读证明/英国假文凭假学历/可查学历认证书University for the Creative Arts购买创意艺术大学书q/微1851304262造假创意艺术大学毕业证【购买成绩单】offer、办理学生卡、制作在读证明/英国假文凭假学历/可查学历认证书University for the Creative Arts7248勤发发
    • -购买创意艺术大学书q/微1851304262造假创意艺术大学毕业证【购买成绩单】offer、办理学生卡、制作在读证明/英国假文凭假学历/可查学历认证书University for the Creative Arts 咨询办理专业海外留学生毕业证,咨询顾问CharlesQ/微:1851304262成绩单,教育部认证、留信认证、大使馆认证、假毕业证,制作假成绩单,仿造假文凭学历,购买假学历文凭,制做毕业证文凭,仿冒文凭毕业证,代办毕业证认证,留服认证,使馆认证,使馆公证,使馆证明,使馆留学回国人员证明,留学生认证,学历认证,文凭认证,学位认证,留学生学历认证,留学生学位认证,使馆认证(留学回国人员证明),学生卡(证),成绩单,在读证明,快速办理录取通知书offer 回国人员证明 一、快速办理材料: 1、毕,业证+成绩单+留学回国人员证明+教育部学历认证(全套留学回国必备证明材料,给父母及亲朋好友一份完美交代); 2、雅思、托福,OFFER,在读证明,学生卡等留学相关材料(申请学校、转学,甚至是申请工签都可以用到)。 注:上述材料,随时都可以安排办理,毕,业证成绩单,学校,专业,学位,毕业时间都可以根据客户要求安排。 二、办理流程: 1、收集客户办理信息; 2、客户付定金下单; 3、公司确认到账转制作点做电子图; 4、电子图做好发给客户确认; 5、电子图确认好转成品部做成品; 6、成品做好拍照或者视频确认再付余款; 7、快递给客户(国内顺丰,国外DHL)。 三、真实网上可查的证明材料 1、教育部学历学位认证,留服真实存档可查,存档。 2、留学回国人员证明(使馆认证),使馆网站真实存档可查。 四、办理流程 1、客户提供相关材料,确定客户办理信息,给出操作方案; 2、补充毕业证成绩单等相关材料; 3、留服注册申请账号,付定金; 4、预约递交时间,公司人员陪同客户本人一起去留服递交材料; 5、等待结果,完成结果书留服直接邮寄给客户 6、客户确认收到结果,付余款。 我们对海外大学及学院的毕业证成绩单所使用的材料,尺寸大小,防伪结构(包括:水印,阴影底纹,钢印LOGO烫金烫银,LOGO烫金烫银复合重叠。 文字图案浮雕,激光镭射,紫外荧光,温感,复印防伪)都有原版本文凭对照。质量得到了广大海外客户群体的认可,同时和海外学校留学中介, 同时能做到与时俱进,及时掌握各大院校的(毕业证,成绩单,资格证,学生卡,结业证,录取通知书,在读证明等相关材料)的版本更新信息, 能够在时间掌握的海外学历文凭的样版,尺寸大小,纸张材质,防伪技术等等,并在时间收集到原版 实物,以求达到客户的需求。 我们的优势: [效率优势]保证在约定的时间内完成任务,视频语音电话查询完成进度。 [品质优势]与学校颁发的相关证件1:1纸质尺寸制定(定期向各大院校毕业生购买版本毕业证成绩单保证您拿到的是学校内部版本毕业证成绩单) [保密优势]我们绝不向任何个人或组织泄露您的隐私,致力于在充分保护你隐私的前提下,为您提供更优质的体验和服务。完成交易,删除客户资料 [价格优势]我们在保证合理定价的同时,坚持较高性价比,通过品质和效率不断优化,为您倾情诠释什么是高性价比。 留信网认证的用途: 主要是提供境外院校资质查询,留学生专业人才证书申报,就业推荐这些服务,海外留学生高等院校学位成绩单认证和在读证明的翻译服务,提供留学生回国就业服务,可以人才存档,失业补贴,可以大额贷款等,.留学生就业指导,福利优惠政策证明学生的留学生身份可以在网上查询到留学时的相关信息、比如专业,入学和毕业时间什么。 回国人员证明的用途: 留学生回国重要的身份和经历证明及购买免税国产小汽车的凭证,而且在创办企业、安排工作、落转户口、子女入学、多生子女上户口、购置住房、申请国内各类科研基金、评定职称、报考公务员或研究生等方面都能够享受国家或各地、各单位给予留学回国人员的各种优惠政策或提供的各种便利条件。 学历认证的用途: 1.建立个人档案。个人档案中有学历一项,通过学历认证的佐证,可以进一步确立个人学历档案的真实性。 2.各种招考或招聘的学历证明。比如公务员或事业编或国有单位的招聘,都需要通过学历认证的查询和审核。 3.升学。比如专升本或考研究生等升学、入学,也需要通过学历认证,以确认考生的学历。 4.出国留学。世界上有很多国家与我们建立了互认学历关系,国外教育学校或机构通过学历认证系统,可以方便的确认中国学生的学历。相同,通过学历认证系统,中国也可以方便的确认国外学生的。 5.人才交流或调动。国内有很多城市实行人才交流或调动,其准入的基本条件也是学历层次问题,通过学历认证系统,可以方便的为准入城市提供真实的学历证明。 其它需要的证明。比如落户口、征兵、重要职业岗位,比如医生、律师、船长、机长、职称评定等,都需要相关的认证和审核。 一、快速办理材料: 1、毕业证+成绩单+留学回国人员证明+教育部学历认证(全套留学回国必备证明材料,给父母及亲朋好友一份完美交代); 2、雅思、托福,OFFER,在读证明,学生卡等留学相关材料(申请学校、转学,甚至是申请工签都可以用到)。 注:上述材料,随时都可以安排办理,毕业证成绩单,学校,专业,学位,毕业时间都可以根据客户要求制作购买创意艺术大学书q/微1851304262造假创意艺术大学毕业证【购买成绩单】offer、办理学生卡、制作在读证明/英国假文凭假学历/可查学历认证书University for the Creative Arts购买创意艺术大学书q/微1851304262造假创意艺术大学毕业证【购买成绩单】offer、办理学生卡、制作在读证明/英国假文凭假学历/可查学历认证书University for the Creative Arts购买创意艺术大学书q/微1851304262造假创意艺术大学毕业证【购买成绩单】offer、办理学生卡、制作在读证明/英国假文凭假学历/可查学历认证书University for the Creative Arts购买创意艺术大学书q/微1851304262造假创意艺术大学毕业证【购买成绩单】offer、办理学生卡、制作在读证明/英国假文凭假学历/可查学历认证书University for the Creative Arts7248勤发发
    • What is it with this idiot? His first remark bashes me for seeming to criticise Trump: His second bashes me for seeming to praise him: As his many accusations at JWs are shot down, he is degenerating into just another source of vitriol. As for cheering for Trump, an elder leading a pioneer meeting—dare I say it was the circuit overseer?—emphasizes the importance of neutrality and the challenges of completely remaining so. “Now we all know that Trump is crazy, but.....” he starts. Two sisters look at each other, and the one says to the other: “I know that my father is a good man, and he voted for Trump.” That CO is very atypical. I’ve never heard another one mention the president, or any president, either way. Doubtless he watches the network news at the end of the day, where they do nothing but bash the president. Making any country great again doesn’t necessarily do it for those accustomed to treating equally those of any “nation, tribe, people, and tongue.” (Revelation 7:9) As for the photoshopped Trump beating up on the CNN bobble head, the average Witness who sees that thinks of how he tries not to do like that with the householder. He observes that Trump is bombastic whereas he tries to be polite. Often his politics go no further than that.
    • What does that even mean?
    • I voted your remark "sad" because it truly is. It is a meaningless non-sequitur with no relevance ... which you think is profound.
    • Maybe you jw's will get lucky and your hero Hitler will start ruling again.
  • Popular Now

  • Recently Browsing

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Who's Online (See full list)

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.