“Yahweh” or “Jehovah”?

[JW Insider]

2 minutes ago, Chioke Lin said:

Perhaps the monk I was thinking of in the 11th century is actually "Raymundo Martini" of the 12th century

Not the 11th or the 12th for this monk. Raymundo Martini was probably born in the 13th century and also died within the 13th century. Wikipedia refers to sources that support the following claim:

He was born in the first half of the 13th century at Subirats in Catalonia; and died after 1284. It is speculated that he could have been of Jewish origin. --https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Martini

That second sentence might have some bearing on his interest in translating YHWH the way he did.

[Chioke Lin]

15 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Raymundo Martini was probably born in the 13th century

Doesn't a century end on 99. How are you configuring when he died after 1284? Shouldn't the birth be more relevant? I don't understand how the death of a person would matter before he configured the name of God and used it by the way he formed it. Doesn't that imply the 12th century?

I guess the point to be made here is, Raymundo Martini was before the 16th century. Do you wish to debate that?

[JW Insider]

40 minutes ago, Chioke Lin said:

Doesn't a century end on 99. How are you configuring when he died after 1284?

It's just a point of clarification.

The 12th century runs from 1100 to 1199 (more common to say 1101 to 1200). So the 13th runs from 1201 to 1300. The 1st century Christians, of course, lived in the century that ran from 1 (AD) to 100 (AD).

The 20th century ran from 1901 to 2000, and our current 21st century runs from 2001 until it runs out a few years after 2034 (just kidding on that last one).

[Arauna]

11 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

It now seems that the ancient Egyptians, that had no reason to lie, gave proof of God's name being Yahweh. 

Except the pronunciation given today is not that of ancient Egyptian.  The Rosetta Stone is not older then 300 BCE ....consequently all old documents are translated in the Egyptian of 3rd century.... which was deciphered with this Rosetta Stone. 

So the inscription you are referring to is 1500 to 1200 BCE - really ancient Egyptian (and please be reminded there were at least 20 different dialects because Egypt was divided in 20 Nodes). The Language that existed about 1200 years before the pronunciation we understand today.  Ancient Egyptian is not understood by any scholar.

So this pronunciation is not absolutely accurate either. 

[Arauna]

3 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

Since certainty of pronunciation is not now attainable,

These 12th century texts they are quoting comes AFTER the Hebrew copies made by the Hebrew scribes - the Masoretic Codexis and manuscripts  of which Nehemia Gorden has already gone to inspect almost 2000 of them - to see if the pointer system (vowels) is in the same ink as the original text.

He has confirmed that the pronunciation of the name  is Yehovah in the original Hebrew. And names such a Yehoram, Yehoshua, etc confirm this.

[BroRando]

15 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

By the way, I was born in 1949, and the letter J did exist then, but I don't expect you to think that deeply. 

So if the letter J existed then. It is now correct to use the J because you were born in 1949 or that your hero committed suicide from trying to exterminate the JEWS?

If you don't like the English language then STOP using it JOHN. 

15 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

the Jewish apostles frequently quoted from the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, which was frequently read and studied by Jews in the New Testament era.

But who else has white supremacy tendencies before 1949 JOHN?  Adolf Hilter and the Catholic Church.  So the JEWS had no right to live before 1949?  

 

[JW Insider]

50 minutes ago, BroRando said:

So if the letter J existed then. It is now correct to use the J because you were born in 1949 or that your hero committed suicide from trying to exterminate the JEWS?

You don't do it as often as others, but I notice that you fill several of your posts with complete non sequiturs and logical fallacies. These types of insults and false reasonings will only push people away from your doctrinal discussions, some of which I find quite interesting.  

51 minutes ago, BroRando said:

But who else has white supremacy tendencies before 1949 JOHN?  Adolf Hilter and the Catholic Church.  So the JEWS had no right to live before 1949?  

I'm sorry I had to point this out, but please don't embarrass yourself further. I think most people will think you handle Biblical discussions a bit better.

(Colossians 4:5, 6) ⁵ Go on walking in wisdom toward those on the outside, making the best use of your time. ⁶ Let your words always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should answer each person.

[BroRando]

57 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

You don't do it as often as others, but I notice that you fill several of your posts with complete non sequiturs and logical fallacies. These types of insults and false reasonings will only push people away from your doctrinal discussions, some of which I find quite interesting.  

I'm sorry I had to point this out, but please don't embarrass yourself further. I think most people will think you handle Biblical discussions a bit better.

(Colossians 4:5, 6) ⁵ Go on walking in wisdom toward those on the outside, making the best use of your time. ⁶ Let your words always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should answer each person.

Many who were following Jesus Christ began to become incensed of some of his teachings and left from following him. 

•  So Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves."
• Because of this, many of his disciples went off to the things behinde and would no longer walk with him.
• It is the spirit that is life-giving; the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

[JW Insider]

21 minutes ago, BroRando said:

Many who were following Jesus Christ began to become incensed of some of his teachings and left from following him. 

This is all true, of course. I don't quite see your point, however, unless you just wanted to give another example of a non sequitur?

By the way, I have not see this happen before, but when I copied over your post where you said that John's hero was Hitler, the picture of Hitler meeting with Catholic leadership did not come across. It showed up for a few seconds under this topic, but disappeared, at least in my browser. That's probably for the best, but the space for that picture is still there and it shows up when I right click on it and try to open the link in another tab. Just so you know I didn't remove the picture of Hitler on purpose (although I wouldn't be surprised if other moderators of this site would have wanted to remove it).

Edited to add: Now it's showing up again.

[BroRando]

21 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

This is all true, of course. I don't quite see your point, however, unless you just wanted to give another example of a non sequitur?

That's my point. You can't see. Those who leave are struck with blindness.  

33 minutes ago, BroRando said:

It is the spirit that is life-giving; the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

The spirit Jesus is talking about here in its context is Jehovah's Life Force.  Therefore, Jehovah's Life Force (Vital Force) is similar but not identical to his Active Force which is his Holy Spirit.

I know I know you still have no understanding.  

Illustrated Example (ie.... Satan and his demons are alive because they have his Life Force but they do not have his Holy Spirit.)  The spirit that Jehovah blew into the notrils of Adam was his Life Force and Adam became a living soul..in context, a living person. But he did not have Jehovah's Holy Spirit. Adam failed his test and lost out.

* I don't mind what language you use to express God's Name. 

[JW Insider]

18 hours ago, Chioke Lin said:

18 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

n 1278 a spanish monk, Raymundo Martini, wrote the latin work PUGIO FIDEI (Dagger of faith). In it he used the name of God, spelling it Yohoua. Later printings of this work, dated some centuries later, used the spelling JEHOVA.

Thanks for confirming the Watchtower article.

This is an interesting point. The information that @Patiently waiting for Truth included is true, and it does not confirm the 1970 Watchtower article. That article was wrong, and the Watchtower kept that wrong view from about 1950 to about 1980. Without admitting that this old view was wrong, the Watchtower has more recently (1984) made a correction to it, which I have included at the end of the post.

The 1970 Watchtower article that Chioke Lin quoted earlier says:

*** w70 6/1 p. 343 A New Bible Translation—Does It Honor God? ***
But French scribes did not invent the name “Jehovah.” It was in use centuries before, Raymond Martin’s Pugio Fidei using it in the form “Jehova” in the year 1270.

Here's the same wrong information repeated in 1980:

*** w80 2/1 p. 11 The Divine Name in Later Times ***
Interestingly, Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk of the Dominican order, first rendered the divine name as “Jehova.” This form appeared in his book Pugeo Fidei, published in 1270 C.E.—over 700 years ago.

This incorrect information had been presented in further detail back in 1950. Many of the extra details are correct:

*** w50 12/1 pp. 472-474 An Open Letter to the Catholic Monsignor ***
Your quotation from the Catholic Biblical Encyclopedia says Jehovah was the incorrect pronunciation given to the Hebrew tetragrammaton JHVH in the 14th century by Porchetus de Salvaticis (1303). But let us say: The origin of the word Jehovah used to be attributed to Petrus Galatinus, a Franciscan friar, the confessor of Pope Leo X, in his De Arcanis Catholicae Veritatis, published in 1518. But the latest scholarship has proved he was not the one to introduce the pronunciation Jehovah, and neither was your aforementioned Porchetus de Salvaticis. As shown by Joseph Voisin, the learned editor of the Pugio Fidei (The Poniard of Faith) by Raymundus Martini, Jehovah had been used long before Galatinus. Even a generation before Porchetus de Salvaticis wrote his Victoria contra Judaeos (1303), the Spanish Dominican friar Raymundus Martini wrote his Pugio, about 1278, and used the name Jehovah. In fact, Porchetus took the contents of his Victoria largely from Martini’s Pugio. And Scaliger proves that Galatinus took his De Arcanis bodily from Martini’s Pugio. Galatinus did not introduce the pronunciation Jehovah, but merely defended it against those who pronounced the Hebrew tetragrammaton Jova.
In 1557 Jehovah became established in John Forster’s New Hebrew Dictionary, and Marcus Marinus admitted Jehova in his Lexicon Arca Noae of 1593. Sebastian Muenster uses the name Jehova in his text of his Latin translation of the Hebrew Scriptures (1534), and in his notes on Exodus 3:15 and 6:3 he uses the name as though it were well known. Also in 1557, in bringing out Pagninus’ Latin version of the Hebrew Scriptures, Robert Stephanus used Jehova uniformly for the Hebrew tetragrammaton. In a note on Psalm 2:1 he remarked that substituting Adonai for it was to be rejected as a Jewish superstition.
Cardinal Thomas de Vio Cajetanus in his Commentary on the Pentateuch, of 1531, regularly used Jehova. In his translation of Genesis 2:4 he has “Jehova Elohim”; and in his note on Exodus 6:3 he says: “Jehovah the God of your fathers appeared to me (Iehova Elohe patrum vestrorum visus est mihi).” To be consistent, you should call that “shallow scholarship” on the part of your cardinal, what?
But that such “shallow scholarship” is not limited to Roman Catholic clergy of the 13th to the 16th centuries, ...
The pronunciation Jahweh, usually credited to John L. Ewald of the 18th century, goes back farther, to the 16th century. Ten years before Ewald was born (1747), Jahveh was found in Eichhorn’s Simonis, the Lexicon in most general use in Germany. F. H. Gesenius adopted the pronunciation Jahveh when Ewald was still defending Jehovah.

A correction to this misinformation was made in 1984, in our publication "The Divine Name That Will Endure Forever." (Appropriately released at the time of the 1984 Reference Edition of the NWT.) In this publication, it was tacitly admitted that the monk, Raymundus Martini, had never used any form like "Jehovah" or "Iehovah" or "Jehova" or "Yehova." These forms were not generally evidenced until the 16th century, literally several centuries later.

*** na pp. 17-18 God’s Name and Bible Translators ***
In time, God’s name came back into use. In 1278 it appeared in Latin in the work Pugio fidei (Dagger of Faith), by Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk. Raymundus Martini used the spelling Yohoua. Soon after, in 1303, Porchetus de Salvaticis completed a work entitled Victoria Porcheti adversus impios Hebraeos (Porchetus’ Victory Against the Ungodly Hebrews). In this he, too, mentioned God’s name, spelling it variously Iohouah, Iohoua and Ihouah.  Then, in 1518, Petrus Galatinus published a work entitled De arcanis catholicae veritatis (Concerning Secrets of the Universal Truth) in which he spells God’s name Iehoua.
The name first appeared in an English Bible in 1530, when William Tyndale published a translation of the first five books of the Bible.

------------

*** na p. 17 God’s Name and Bible Translators ***
In time, God’s name came back into use. In 1278 it appeared in Latin in the work Pugio fidei (Dagger of Faith), by Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk. Raymundus Martini used the spelling Yohoua.

*** na p. 18 God’s Name and Bible Translators ***
[Picture on page 18]
God’s name in the form Yohoua appeared in 1278 in the work Pugio fidei as seen in this manuscript (dated to the 13th or 14th century) from the Ste. Geneviève library, Paris, France (folio 162b)

*** na p. 17 God’s Name and Bible Translators ***
Printings of this work dated some centuries later, however, have the divine name spelled Jehova.

[BroRando]

28 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The 1970 Watchtower article that Chioke Lin quoted earlier says:

*** w70 6/1 p. 343 A New Bible Translation—Does It Honor God? ***
But French scribes did not invent the name “Jehovah.” It was in use centuries before, Raymond Martin’s Pugio Fidei using it in the form “Jehova” in the year 1270.

Acutally it proves @Patiently waiting for Truth is wrong. The letter "J" was used prior to 1949.