ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view

[bruceq]

On 8/25/2017 at 9:27 AM, JW Insider said:

If there are really hundreds more quotations he he made saying 1914 "would be indicated with a War," then you should at least be able to find ONE, wouldn't you agree?

Indeed and not only is it mentioned in many WT publications written before 1914 and in the "Time is at Hand" {4 MILLION copies testifying to your error}  but history testifies that it was as seen in secular newspapers. 

  You should know this already. If you really are a Witness. I have read it several times in my own Studies in the Scriptures and Watch Towers of that era He said in 1914 there would be worldwide "turmoil" "universal anarchy" "war" "time of trouble"  and many other words to describe that year as different than any previous.  Rev. 6:4 "peace taken away from the EARTH".

Why do Christendom's apostates always try to attack Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914? See below.

https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/VODOrgMovies/pub-kyc_1_VIDEO

https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw=&_ssn=lisa.joeywit&_armrs=1&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313.TR9.TRC1.A0.H0.X1914.TRS2&_nkw=1914&_sacat=0

http://www.ebay.com/itm/END-OF-ALL-KINGDOMS-1914-Watchtower-related-I-B-S-A-/391858379350?hash=item5b3c945a56:m:mnBaLoE_YJH7RmmHDm2LwHA

[bruceq]

Have JOY...put Jehovah first, Others second and Yourself last. Don't be an "insider" be humble and do your Happy Dance

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-january-2017/why-modesty-still-matters/

[bruceq]

On 8/25/2017 at 9:27 AM, JW Insider said:

If there are really hundreds more quotations he he made saying 1914 "would be indicated with a War," then you should at least be able to find ONE, wouldn't you agree?

So far, you are "batting 0." Perhaps that's why your cartoon above needed to give the appearance of a "home run"?

 

BTW when you said you receive "special interpretation" where does it come from? God himself speak to you? Or perhaps angels? Or just from websites from Christendom?   Christendom are the ones who do not teach that the Gentile Times ended in 1914. And I have noticed you like to copy and paste from apostate websites against our teachings.  Jesus is head of the Congregation - if he says he became King in 1914 then who exactly are you to go against the teachings of our Lord and Master Jesus Christ?

https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/VODOrgMovies/pub-kyc_1_VIDEO

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/1914-significant-year-bible-prophecy/#?insight[search_id]=46cb7e60-31f5-400b-94ec-d6d85eae6d8f&insight[search_result_index]=1

 

[Noble Berean]

On 8/24/2017 at 9:31 AM, bruceq said:

    I am so sorry insider that you have been sour and bitter because of the experience of imperfect men. But this is still Jehovah's Organization and Jesus is the head of the Congregation and that is why we must believe EVERYTHING Jesus as head teaches us including the teachings on 1914 and EVERYTHING else. You must have faith that Jesus is head and not you or any man or woman. If Jehovah's Witnesses is the True Religion then Jesus is head and whatever teaching he allows is truth until HE tells us otherwise. People in Christendom pick and choose what to believe from their human clergy. We cannot just pick and choose weather to believe certain doctrines from our head Christ. He requires exclusive loyalty and devotion not a picky person who thinks they know more than our head Jesus. John 6:68

Hi @bruceq with the greatest respect...is the attitude of always accepting everything the organization says in harmony with the Bible? Didn't the leaders of God's chosen nation of Israel do bad things? Were the Israelites given a free pass when their leaders gave incorrect direction? Or were they punished along with the leaders? Isn't there evidence that God expects individuals to discern what's right/wrong on their own and not just follow along with the group?

[bruceq]

44 minutes ago, Noble Berean said:

Hi @bruceq with the greatest respect...is the attitude of always accepting everything the organization says in harmony with the Bible? Didn't the leaders of God's chosen nation of Israel do bad things? Were the Israelites given a free pass when their leaders gave incorrect direction? Or were they punished along with the leaders? Isn't there evidence that God expects individuals to discern what's right/wrong on their own and not just follow along with the group?

   

 I believe that JESUS is our head and we should follow him no matter where he goes.  Eph. 1:22.

 Jesus is head of the Congregation Mt 28:18; Eph. 5:23; Heb. 2:8.

“These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes.”—REV. 14:4.

Loyalty to the Head of the Congregation is a given. Should not even be questioned as Jesus IS our Lord and Master. Therefore he is in control of all teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses IF you believe Jehovah's Witnesses is the true faith. To do things on your own like Adam, Eve, Satan, Korah and other presumptuous ones tried is disloyalty. And shows great disrespect for our Head as he is in control of the Chariot. To do your own thing as you state is no different than Christendom and is like using a taxi instead of letting Jesus drive the Chariot. In a taxi you pay someone to go where YOU want. Just like Christendom pays its clergy to go where the people want. Ez. Cpt. 1

https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=true+religion

 What is our response to divinely authorized headship? By our respectful cooperation, we show our support for Jehovah’s sovereignty. Even if we do not fully understand or agree with a decision, we will still want to support theocratic  order. That is quite different from the way of the world, but it is the way of life under Jehovah’s rulership. (Eph. 5:22, 23; 6:1-3; Heb. 13:17) We benefit from doing so, for God has our interests at heart. {From this weekends Watchtower.} https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-june-2017/uphold-jehovah-gods-sovereignty/

[Noble Berean]

24 minutes ago, bruceq said:

Loyalty to the Head of the Congregation is a given. Should not even be questioned as Jesus IS our Lord and Master. Therefore he is in control of all teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses IF you believe Jehovah's Witnesses is the true faith. To do things on your own like Korah and other presumptuous ones tried is disloyalty. And shows great disrespect for our Head as he is in control of the Chariot. To do your own thing as you state is no different than Christendom and is like using a taxi instead of letting Jesus drive the Chariot. In a taxi you pay someone to go where YOU want. Just like Christendom pays its clergy to go where the people want.

Hi again. You really didn't address my comments about the Israelite Kings who disobeyed God. Doesn't that indicate that just b/c someone is taking the lead over God's people that does not mean they are doing the correct things? Jehovah God did punish his chosen nation...he didn't spare the followers b/c of the corruption of the leaders. So, why today should we follow without question? Will God care on his judgment day that we just followed along or will he care that we did right according to our own conscience? (And I'm not suggesting the GB is on par with those wicked kings, but I'm just trying to make a point.)

You brought a good point...what Biblical reference point do we use to know how to treat the GB? You suggest Moses is the right comparison, but what about the first century Christian Governing Body as a comparison? Wasn't the apostle Peter (one of the men taking the lead) openly chastised for avoiding the uncircumcised gentiles? Can't imagine any open criticism of the GB today. There's very little info about this first-century group...in fact there's 1 recorded event of the GB intervening on the matter of circumcision.

And let me be clear what I'm not saying. I am not suggesting anyone split off or take on the GB's role. I feel that it's appropriate for a GB to exist in God's organization. But is it appropriate that all JWs be in 100% agreement with the GB's direction under threat of shunning? Is their scriptural basis for that kind of authority on scriptural interpretation? What's most important: unity or personal scriptural truth? If your Bible based conscience does not harmonize with the group does that make you an "apostate"?

[bruceq]

33 minutes ago, Noble Berean said:

Hi again you really didn't address my comments about the Israelite Kings who disobeyed God. Doesn't that indicate that just b/c someone is taking the lead over God's people that does not mean they are doing the correct things? Jehovah God did punish his chosen nation...he didn't spare the followers b/c of the corruption of the leaders. So, why today should we follow without question? Will God care on his judgment day that we just followed along or will he care that we did right according to our own conscience? (And I'm not suggesting the GB is on par with those wicked kings, but I'm just trying to make a point.)

You brought a good point...what Biblical reference point do we use to know how to treat the GB? You suggest Moses is the right comparison, but what about the first century Christian Governing Body as a comparison? Wasn't the apostle Peter (one of the men taking the lead) openly chastised for avoiding the uncircumcised gentiles? Can't imagine any open criticism of the GB today. There's very little info about this first-century group...in fact there's 1 recorded event of the GB intervening on the matter of circumcision.

And let me be clear what I'm not saying. I am not suggesting anyone split off or take on the GB's role. I feel that it's appropriate for a GB to exist in God's organization. But is it appropriate that all JWs be in 100% agreement with the GB's direction under threat of shunning? Is their scriptural basis for that kind of authority on scriptural interpretation? What's most important: unity or personal scriptural truth? If your Bible based conscience does not harmonize with the group does that make you an "apostate"?

  What is most important is to follow Jesus no matter what. If you believe JW have the truth then you must be loyal to Jehovah and the one he has put into authority over the Congregation - Jesus. The paragraph from this weeks WT noted in prior post answers your other questions.

Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you+and be submissive,+ for they are keeping watch over you* as those who will render an account,+ so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you. Heb. 13:17

 Jesus is head of the Congregation. If any make mistakes then Jesus will correct them as the head. Just as the Israelites were corrected. But the Christian Congregation has a head that we must follow without question, otherwise we are no different than Christendom's Churches in doing our own thing. If Jesus really is your Lord then you must follow in his footsteps. Not go left or right on your own. While riding the Chariot we might see that its a good idea to turn right here but instead of waiting on the driver - Jesus to turn at his time for it we jump out and go to the right. You may be right about it but it was not the "proper" time to go right. There is only one driver or head. The problem is you may be right but your now on the road under the wheels of the Chariot because you presumptuously went before the "proper" time to turn right. Mt. 24:45.

Listen to this talk it may help you build more faith in Jehovah's organization and why things happen at a "proper" time. 

 

Bucher Tommy - Jehovah is With His People.mp3

[Noble Berean]

28 minutes ago, bruceq said:

If any make mistakes then Jesus will correct them as the head. Just as the Israelites were corrected.

"Corrected"? Is that how it went @bruceq? Or did Jehovah God not punish the Israelites (death and enslavement) for following along with the corruption of their leaders?

28 minutes ago, bruceq said:

But the Christian Congregation has a head that we must follow without question, otherwise we are no different than Christendom's Churches in doing our own thing.

What you're describing is how the false empire of Christendom arose. Christendom may be miles from pure worship now, but it started off as pure Christian worship. It took many years for something pure to become rife with paganism and corruption. Men put themselves into positions of authority (clergy) and could not be questioned under threat of excommunication. This vacuum of free discussion led to false ideas like the Trinity and Hellfire becoming entrenched. The Church became tyrannical and many had to flee Europe for their religious views. "Truth" arose in America because people had more freedom to speak out and question the false narrative of the Church.  Now there is another vacuum of free discussion in the JW religion, and I have no doubts that in time the religion will become like another Church.

[bruceq]

8 minutes ago, Noble Berean said:

"Corrected"? Is that how it went @bruceq? Or did Jehovah God not punish the Israelites (death and enslavement) for following along with the corruption of their leaders?

What you're describing is how the false empire of Christendom arose. Men put themselves into positions of authority and could not be questioned under threat of excommunication. This vacuum of free discussion led to false ideas like the Trinity and Hellfire becoming entrenched. The Church became tyrannical and many had to flee Europe for their religious views. "Truth" arose in America because people had more freedom to speak out and question the false narrative of the Church.  Now there is another vacuum of free discussion in the JW religion, and I have no doubts that in time the religion will become like another Church.

  I said JESUS is head not any human!!!

 I believe this is Jehovah's Organization and Jesus is the head of the Congregation and that is why we must believe EVERYTHING Jesus as head teaches us. If Jehovah's Witnesses is the True Religion then Jesus is head and whatever teaching he allows is truth until HE tells us otherwise. People in Christendom pick and choose what to believe from their human clergy. We cannot just pick and choose weather to believe certain doctrines from our head Christ. He requires exclusive loyalty and devotion. John 6:68

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/good-news-from-god/recognize-true-worshippers/#?insight[search_id]=7324f81a-0b7f-43a8-ae60-f9d8b866ec03&insight[search_result_index]=6

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

he didn't spare the followers b/c of the corruption of the leaders. So, why today should we follow without question? Will God care on his judgment day that we just followed along or will he care that we did right according to our own conscience? (And I'm not suggesting the GB is on par with those wicked kings, but I'm just trying to make a point.)

Since you're not suggesting the GB is on par with those corrupt leaders, the premise of your point collapses and the point along with it.

 

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

Wasn't the apostle Peter (one of the men taking the lead) openly chastised for avoiding the uncircumcised gentiles? 

Yes. By another one of the leaders.

 

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

Can't imagine any open criticism of the GB today.

If we are to believe JWI, it happens all the time.

 

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

But is it appropriate that all JWs be in 100% agreement with the GB's direction under threat of shunning?

This tired bit of nonsense has been dealt with already. There was an entire thread about it.

 

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

If your Bible based conscience does not harmonize with the group does that make you an "apostate"?

You take a back seat in those instances. Nobody says you can't. It's when you try to grab the wheel that  trouble comes about.

@bruceq's verse is telling: They keep following the Lamb "no matter where he goes." In whose eyes? If it is each one following him no matter where he goes in his own eyes according to that one's own Bible-trained conscience, then some do one thing and some do another. The whole phrase becomes silly, and should be replaced with "each one did what was right in his own eyes."

Since you do not equate the GB with the corrupt, wicked kings, then the model of rebels in the congregation, be that Korah or Hymanaus, is the more appropriate. Further, since it is not corruption or wickedness you object to, then it becomes little more than a matter of style. You don't carry on and on over such things. You just sit out if you can't abide it. To not do so indicates that one really doesn't believe: "it's not about us - it's about God's purpose and the sanctification of his name." 

"It is about us" is the message that comes through loud and clear with the most chronic complainers

[Noble Berean]

2 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Since you're not suggesting the GB is on par with those corrupt leaders, the premise of your point collapses and the point along with it.

How so? It may be an extreme example, but the point remains that these Kings were appointed by God, yet God punished those who followed the King into false worship. So, this idea that we should follow no matter what seems to conflict with the example of ancient Israel. Apparently God does expect us to exercise our own independent conscience at times and not just be unified, unified, unified.

6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This tired bit of nonsense has been dealt with already. There was an entire thread about it.

Sorry I am a newbie here.

[Noble Berean]

12 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Since you do not equate the GB with the corrupt, wicked kings, then the model of rebels in the congregation, be that Korah or Hymanaus, is the more appropriate. Further, since it is not corruption or wickedness you object to, then it becomes little more than a matter of style.

Call me a skeptic, but how can Jehovah God honestly expect JWs to put GB and Moses on the same level?

• Moses was a prophet, the GB is not.
• God spoke to Moses and his face glowed like the sun. God has never spoken to the GB.
• God used Moses to perform miracles. He parted the Red Sea with God's holy spirit. He healed the sick with the bronze serpent.
• There was a cloud pillar representing God that followed the Jews in the wilderness.
• Their souls never wore out.

God left no doubt in the mind of the Jews that Moses was divinely appointed and had authority. Dissent was ridiculous. What do we have? The GB has a history of missteps in direction, yet they continue to expect unquestioned loyalty.