ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view

[bruceq]

BTW try limiting your responses like I have to 30 sec or less as the brothers have told us. It is rather haughty to have to read 10- 15 min of material that you could have summoned up in one paragraph or a couple of sentences. Try one point at a time please. I cant imagine have a brother in the Watchtower Study say the comments you write as it would take up all the time and no one could say anything else. Our time is of value to us as well. James 4:10. One time one of your responses to someone literally took me 15 min just to read it !!! I'm not kidding. 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, bruceq said:

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

On your points about doctrine, well that is just a philosophy that works for you. There are certain traditions that are strongly entrenched, and some of these can make the word of God invalid. If you lived in a congregation in the first century and the the body of elders taught that the resurrection had already occurred, you really think you would be obligated to believe it, just because the Bible said that you must be obedient to those taking the lead among you?

Of course since Jesus is the head of the Congregation not you or any of the brothers back then. Try to look at it spiritually instead of physical.

This is actually not the answer I expected. It's because Jesus is the Head of the congregation that I would think we'd know better. It's because we look to a spiritual Head of the congregation instead of physical men that we should know better.

• (2 Timothy 2:16-19) 16 But reject empty speeches that violate what is holy, for they will lead to more and more ungodliness, 17 and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy·me·naeʹus and Phi·leʹtus are among them. 18 These men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are subverting the faith of some. 19 Despite that, the solid foundation of God remains standing, having this seal, “Jehovah knows those who belong to him,” and, “Let everyone calling on the name of Jehovah renounce unrighteousness.”

How are we obligated to believe something and we are obligated to reject it at the same time?

Today we also live in a time when the Governing Body has inherited a tradition that claimed that the resurrection has already occurred. You don't feel like as if you are required to test this doctrine and make sure before you begin believing it and promoting it yoursel?

 

[bruceq]

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This is actually not the answer I expected. It's because Jesus is the Head of the congregation that I would think we'd know better. It's because we look to a spiritual Head of the congregation instead of physical men that we should know better.

• (2 Timothy 2:16-19) 16 But reject empty speeches that violate what is holy, for they will lead to more and more ungodliness, 17 and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy·me·naeʹus and Phi·leʹtus are among them. 18 These men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are subverting the faith of some. 19 Despite that, the solid foundation of God remains standing, having this seal, “Jehovah knows those who belong to him,” and, “Let everyone calling on the name of Jehovah renounce unrighteousness.”

How are we obligated to believe something and we are obligated to reject it at the same time?

Today we also live in a time when the Governing Body has inherited a tradition that claimed that the resurrection has already occurred. You don't feel like as if you are required to test this doctrine and make sure before you begin believing it and promoting it yoursel?

 

Again your comments testify your looking at this from a human perspective...comments like "Inherited tradition" as if we are just a religion of Christendom and not the True Faith under Christ as leader.  We all need adjustments in veiwpoints from time to time. But Jesus does the adjustments. And the two in 2 Tim had a bad attitude about it they were trying to "subvert" others by being dogmatic against Jesus's headship as in control of the Congreagations' teachings.

{"You don't feel like as if you are required to test this doctrine and make sure before you begin believing it and promoting it yoursel"?}

No if Jesus says it is true for now then it is not up to me to change that or question it. That would be presumptuous to think I know better than Jesus. I also have my own ideas dont take me wrong. For example I think the "entire" First Resurrection may happen at the very end of the GT just before Armageddon rather than 1918 just as years ago I always thought the GT would last a number of years like in the First Century by 1995 that came out. But not because of ME. However there is a Scripture in Revelation 14:13 seems to contradict my thinking on the resurrection being totally at the end of the second "phase". But the point I am making is it is ok to speculate on such things but I am not of the Governing Body and it is not up to anyone to try and reform Jesus' teachings. We are given food at the "proper" time that is proper for Jesus to turn that Chariot in any given direction since we do not have the map as to what the reasons are for any given change as humans on earth. We simply follow our "head" of the Congregation. I don't mind some of your "thinking" but I do when it sounds more like "this must be so about 1914...and thus dogmatically say the Governing Body is mistaken when Jesus is the one in control of all teachings.

[bruceq]

For example I have also noticed the word "SAMA at 1 Thess. 4:17 as seemingly saying "at the same time" and that the NWT does not translate it that way. BUT so no other Translation also does not translate it that way. I am not a Greek scholar so there must be reasons why Translations say "together with them be caught away"...however than a "moment" of a 1 st Ress. Rev 14:13 seems to indicate a period of time for the First Resurrection. I found out about 1 Thess many decades ago and if there is going to be any adjustment it will be at the "proper" time when Christ moves the Chariot in that direction. Not because I think it should change right now. I am thinking perhaps "together with them " takes into account "at the same time" without detailing it so. But we will wait and see...that is wait on our "head" to direct his vessel.

Here is the most updated on this subject soon to be posted on jw.org : Dec 2017 Study Edition

17 The Bible adds details about the heavenly resurrection: “We do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death . . . For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death . . . We the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, . . . and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.”—1 Thess. 4:13-17. 18 The first resurrection would take place sometime after “the presence” of Christ began. Anointed ones who are alive during the great tribulation will be “caught away in clouds.” (Matt. 24:31) Those “caught away” will not “fall asleep in death” in the sense of having a long sleep in death. They “will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet.”—1 Cor. 15: 51, 52.

Notice they did not here mention 1918 but is in harmony with what I believe is our belief on the subject. Things are revealed slowly at times. They seem to me to connect the first with the being "caught away". Notice it?

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Do they? Or do they not remind us of journalists who all day, every day, identify problems for others to fix. And when the fix is in, they point out what is wrong with that, too. It's a great job to have.

I think that is the job that journalists should have, to uncover issues that need to be fixed. If it's not their job to fix it, then that should be left to someone else. Of course, I don't confuse CNN, MSNBC, FOX and nightly broadcast news with journalism, either.

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

But does it not just as equally provide fuel for those with flame throwers?

Fuel for flamethrowers is always out there, whether some of it gets discussed here or not. But it's good for us to know what's true and what's exaggerated. When to duck and when to ignore. But we don't want to expose ourselves further by simply hiding our head in the sand. And we don't want to deny things that it is dishonest to deny.

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

People leave with approximately the same level of empathy they had on arrival.

I don't know about that. We all have defense mechanisms that just seem to rise up when we feel our comfort level threatened. Among each other, here, we may act one way, but we are better prepared for what we will see more and more of outside here. We are going to face more and more people who are info-savvy, even in our own congregations. (My own children found jwfacts before I did.) They will see direct evidence that something is true, ask us about it, and hear some of us deny that there is even a grain of truth to it. They might wonder what kind of "truth" this is. (My own mother will probably instinctively deny that Brother Jackson ever testified anywhere on "that" subject, for example.) Yet, if a transition toward more openness, realism, and truth is evident anywhere, even here, then it's a start toward healing ourselves of a pervasive pride of ignorance. When we truly make the truth our own, we will be better equipped to defend and emphasize the more important things, when someone brings up details about lesser things.

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

To whatever extent it is true that the new ones are having a love-in and the old ones fought like cats and dogs, should we attribute it to public discussions? Or to being taught by Jehovah?

It's a better question that you might think. There was an "old guard" who were known to be very insular and clearly felt threatened by discussions. It's true that they literally thought that it was some kind of attack on them if groups of brothers and sisters were meeting together just to read and discuss the Bible reading without Society publications at their side at all times. I was there for the crackdown on such gatherings that had become popular from about 1975 to 1979 when the brothers handling morning worship were beginning to make statements that sounded paranoid. But most of these brothers had been life-long bureaucrats inside a Tower all their lives. But the "new crew" is mostly from circuit work, missionary work, with only a reasonable amount of branch level work. There are more married couples. We speak about how Jesus was taught by Jehovah and this includes the fact that he has lived as a natural human, has become "one of us." 

• Compare: (Hebrews 5:1, 2) 5 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed in their behalf over the things relating to God, so that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal compassionately with the ignorant and erring ones, since he too is confronted with his own weakness,
• Compare: (James 5:17) 17 E·liʹjah was a man with feelings like ours. . .

[bruceq]

 ⁴  "For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly,+ but powerful by God+for overturning strongly entrenched things. ⁵  For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God,+ and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ" 2 Cor. 10:4,5.

Obedient to CHRIST the head of the Congregation.  

Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you+and be submissive,+ for they are keeping watch over you* as those who will render an account,+ so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you. Heb. 13:17

[TrueTomHarley]

34 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

We all have defense mechanisms that just seem to rise up when we feel our comfort level threatened.

I think most of us first respond like Paul, who 'lost it' in Athens.

"While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he grew exasperated at the sight of the city full of idols. So he debated in the synagogue with the Jews and with the worshipers, and daily in the public square with whoever happened to be there."  Acts 17:16-17  NABRE

Why didn't he mind his own business? Because he became exasperated - wanting to tolerate no rivalry toward Jehovah.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Why didn't he mind his own business? Because he became exasperated - wanting to tolerate no rivalry toward Jehovah.

You are right. I never tied his mindset as the cause so directly to his debating as the effect.

[Guest J.R. Ewing]

I believe it’s very simple without having to mispresent scripture. Convince GOD!!!!!!!!!!

Can it NOT be said in the same manner in which it's being applied by apostasy?

2 Timothy 2:16-19New International Version (NIV)

^16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. ^17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, ^18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. ^19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

 

1 Chronicles 29:11New International Version (NIV)

^11 Yours, Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the majesty and the splendor,
    for everything in heaven and earth is yours. Yours, Lord, is the kingdom; you are exalted as head over all.

Romans 9:14-21New International Version (NIV)

^14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! ^15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”^[a]

^16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. ^17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”^[b]18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

^19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” ^20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”^[c]21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

Romans 13:1-6New International Version (NIV)

Submission to Governing Authorities

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. ^2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. ^3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. ^4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. ^5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

^6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing.

Are we to pick and choose only those understandings that benefit our personal objective? Is being in submission to governing authorities only meant to CesarÂ’s law?

Learning scripture seems convenient here to suggest the contrary. Therefore, A disciple of Christ is at a distance here.

 

[Anna]

11 hours ago, bruceq said:

If Jehovah's Witnesses is the true religion then their teachings are true since Jesus is the head of those teachings,

Ummmm...I hate to sound critical, but I will ask the obvious question, what about those teachings that weren't actually true and we taught them as truth, until we found out otherwise. Are you hereby saying Jesus was lying?

[Anna]

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It's true that they literally thought that it was some kind of attack on them if groups of brothers and sisters were meeting together just to read and discuss the Bible reading without Society publications at their side at all times.

If I remember right, is it  those Bible discussions that eventually led to the "dissidency"? I don't think it was just reading and discussing the Bible, but it was coming up with another interpretation, which they liked better than the official JW teaching.....

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

14 hours ago, Anna said:

If I remember right, is it  those Bible discussions that eventually led to the "dissidency"? I don't think it was just reading and discussing the Bible, but it was coming up with another interpretation, which they liked better than the official JW teaching.....

Isn't that what we encourage people to do in the Ministry, to BECOME Jehovah's Witnesses ?

How can we encourage others to exercise THEIR freedom of thought and expression ...

... when we deny it to EACH OTHER ?

Oh yeah ... I forgot ... we hold the entire family as hostages ... to prevent that.

Never mind.

The Truth about THAT ...... is what got us thrown out of Russia.

.... even post Soviets know better.