ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view

[Arauna]

BCE - The Greeks figured time by means of four-year periods called Olympiads, starting from the first Olympiad, calculated as beginning in 776 B.C.E. Additionally, they often identified specific years by referring to the term of office of some particular official. More accurate and more sources than the Babylonian chronology. However, evidence will be stronger if one uses  BOTH  - not just one set of evidences!

539 BCE is the most accurate date because not only do the Babylonian sources agree but also when one takes the death of Cyrus (confirmed at 530 BCE from many sources.  + 9 years rule -   gives one 539 BCE for fall of Babylon. (battle of Opis given in same year.... so there are many additional  'indications' that this date is good...... and the proof is still on the ground!!regarding 1914 as the date which Jesus started ruling amidst his enemies! and the first resurrection took place.

 

 

[Arauna]

Don't know who wrote the Wikipedia article about David Rohl you are quoting but it is not accurate.  Rohl's dates are closer to the dates given by the Witnesses.  Most atheists say there is no evidence of the exodus in the bible.  Rohl is of the contention that they are looking in the wrong time-line for it because the evidence is there!   Many of these contentious Egyptian chronologists (Rohl included) say the ancient Egyptian history is out by 200 years and closer to the time of Nebuchadnezzar they are out by 20 years. 

[Arauna]

They moved some of the threads - sorry do not know where to find them!

I wanted to talk about the thoughts expressed by Insider.   After reading your experiences in Bethel you were on my mind - lets say - a lot. Was I shocked by your feelings and revelations?  NO.  People are people and Jehovah allows persons to choose their way and behavior.  Unfortunately, there are people who like to dominate others and as I said before - this is not a Christ-like quality. There are also those who like to sow doubt while they are busy with wicked things themselves.  So these persons were an instrument - not to break your faith BUT to break your trust.  However,  I do not distrust Jehovah when my neighbor does something bad to me - so the same when I brother does not act in a way we would expect. 

I can imagine the effect this can have on a young, eager mind.  But also remember - you do not know the inside story. He may have been seen - hence the rumors - and everything said and done in secret was revealed at once..... .

 I have read articles about the re-wiring of the brain or the strengthening of connections. Every time you re-live an emotion or a bad past experience your are re-wiring the memory again.....  So in order to look forward ... and not look back too much - do not think about bad experiences too much.  Jehovah told Cain to not let his bad thoughts control him.  He was expected to get control over it.  He did not listen to this advice direct from Jehovah. If your trust was shaken - sufficient time has now passed for you to get a more mature perspective of what happened.  If he was humble enough for correction would he not have come back later?  So did Jehovah withhold his spirit for a reason? 

My husband and I often talk about the earlier generations - they were more harsh because they were punished quite severely in school and most of them grew up in very strict (obedient to parents/teachers) environments.  The two world wars also had a great effect on society - more rigid.  So while I do not apologize for this behavior it is always good to look for mitigating circumstances and remember the Jehovah is the final judge.

It just worries me to think that it is still so vivid in your mind.  The restructuring of the GB and committees has made it less likely to happen again.  Now they pay much more attention to "reviling" than before.  If the dis-fellowshipped group displayed any form of defiant behavior - I  can understand why they then would quickly dis-fellowship them. Wicked people, often play on peoples feelings by playing the 'victim'. It is just another form of deceit.

The GB will definitely be attacked again by Satan and people maybe dis-fellowshipped. ... If there are people who can be used by satan to sow doubt or other behaviors which can break trust - he will do so - of this I am certain.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

NO amount of opposition will EVER remove the “FACT” that Pastor Russell, made a spot-on prediction concerning 1914AD.

Really? And what was that spot-on prediction that Russell made? Please provide a reference if you have it.

[Noble Berean]

15 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Really? And what was that spot-on prediction that Russell made? Please provide a reference if you have it.

I'm going to venture he's referring to 1914 being the start of The Great War (WWI)?

[JW Insider]

Just now, Noble Berean said:

I'm going to venture he's referring to 1914 being the start of The Great War (WWI)?

Of course that could be part of what he has in mind, but Russell never predicted the start of the Great War we now call World War I.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

I don't see it in the thread now - [probably just incompetence, for which I hope I can partially plead inexperience with this site]- but JWInsider said that Caroline Waerzegger's putting "Series" in quotes, in lieu of “Babylonian Chronicle Series”, was simply for brevity's sake, but  my previous quote along with this one I believe, help to demonstrate that her purpose is really to dispute that what is referred to  by Grayson and others , as the “Babylonian Chronicle Series” can be properly called a "series"

It's back on your post in this thread from Monday, 8/21/2017 time-stamped at 5:20pm in my time zone (EST). In that post you asked: " Should "series" always be in quotes, when referring to these clay tabs of Babs?"

On 8/21/2017 at 5:59 PM, JW Insider said:

This was from your post about Grayson's book. (Which is excellent, btw) The reason this book review uses the term "Series" like this is to avoid the repetition of the longer phrase, "Babylonian Chronicle Series."

You can tell from the context (of your original post) that she is discussing the fact that Grayson calls ALL of them a part of the "Babylonian Chronicle Series" which she sees as appropriate only up to a point, but does not see the same continuity especially between certain of the chronicles and major eras represented in the "Series" with such a long gap in between. Grayson almost always refers to the entire set of chronicles as the "Babylonian Chronicle Series:" And Grayson defends the use of the term "series."

So, you are right. And I did not catch the full gist of your question. I thought you were asking about the grammar of requiring quotation marks when referring to the "Babylonian Chronicle Series." You can see that the answer to the grammar question is 'NO' by her use of quotation marks only in the capitalized word, and comparing it with his use, without quotation marks, in the non-capitalized word. But if you were referring to the point of her argument itself, then it's obvious you already know that she takes exception his continued use of the term "Babylonian Chronicle Series" because she thinks the word "Series" connotes too much continuity.

 

 

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

They moved some of the threads - sorry do not know where to find them!

I wanted to talk about the thoughts expressed by Insider.   After reading your experiences in Bethel you were on my mind - lets say - a lot. Was I shocked by your feelings and revelations?  NO.  People are people and Jehovah allows persons to choose their way and behavior.  Unfortunately, there are people who like to dominate others and as I said before - this is not a Christ-like quality. There are also those who like to sow doubt while they are busy with wicked things themselves.  So these persons were an instrument - not to break your faith BUT to break your trust.  However,  I do not distrust Jehovah when my neighbor does something bad to me - so the same when I brother does not act in a way we would expect. 

I can imagine the effect this can have on a young, eager mind.  But also remember - you do not know the inside story. He may have been seen - hence the rumors - and everything said and done in secret was revealed at once..... .

 I have read articles about the re-wiring of the brain or the strengthening of connections. Every time you re-live an emotion or a bad past experience your are re-wiring the memory again.....  So in order to look forward ... and not look back too much - do not think about bad experiences too much.  Jehovah told Cain to not let his bad thoughts control him.  He was expected to get control over it.  He did not listen to this advice direct from Jehovah. If your trust was shaken - sufficient time has now passed for you to get a more mature perspective of what happened.  If he was humble enough for correction would he not have come back later?  So did Jehovah withhold his spirit for a reason? 

My husband and I often talk about the earlier generations - they were more harsh because they were punished quite severely in school and most of them grew up in very strict (obedient to parents/teachers) environments.  The two world wars also had a great effect on society - more rigid.  So while I do not apologize for this behavior it is always good to look for mitigating circumstances and remember the Jehovah is the final judge.

It just worries me to think that it is still so vivid in your mind.  The restructuring of the GB and committees has made it less likely to happen again.  Now they pay much more attention to "reviling" than before.  If the dis-fellowshipped group displayed any form of defiant behavior - I  can understand why they then would quickly dis-fellowship them. Wicked people, often play on peoples feelings by playing the 'victim'. It is just another form of deceit.

The GB will definitely be attacked again by Satan and people maybe dis-fellowshipped. ... If there are people who can be used by satan to sow doubt or other behaviors which can break trust - he will do so - of this I am certain.

Thanks for showing such true concern. It's deeply appreciated. Those old posts are still in this thread. The ones that were moved to a separate thread (so far) made up 6 or 7 of the 20 pages of this thread. So those posts are still here, and in the same order, but by moving so many near-adjacent posts, they fall on different pages now. 

Regarding Bethel experiences, I look back on all of it overall with fond and happy memories. I know there was an initial shock, not so much at the existence of cursing and abusive behavior, but at the pervasiveness and acceptance of it among those with high levels of responsibility. I just typed up two cases that I thought were informative to your point but removed them to avoid raising new topics. The point was that I sometimes mistook mildness and meekness for humility, when it could also be paired with the height of egotism. And in another case where a brother ranted loudly and even slammed a newly published book across the room, I came to appreciate that he really thought he was protecting the worldwide congregation from error. As a young person, I didn't have the tools to understand people very well, and for many years still we continue to learn from new experiences that shed light on old ones.

But when we realize and accept that some negative type of behavior is widespread, we also tend to accept it ourselves too easily, I think. And I'm sure the level of privilege has something to do with that. I had excellent and wonderful assignments, and I wouldn't have risked them to give any kind of feedback to someone who could control my assignments. I would expect an argument here and there in the bindery or pressroom, and yet I heard they were rare. I wondered if they were worse among persons of greater responsibility. These weren't daily occurrences, of course, because we always tend to remember and highlight the exceptions. Even if those exceptions are negative.

Obviously, when it comes to doctrinal questions, I do the same thing here on the forum. I could go on and on about why our stance on war, hell and Trinity, for example, is such a good thing in that doesn't just set us apart, but also produces a much healthier Christianity than we could expect from those who see things differently. But instead, I assume we all know that alrady and try to share something that I think we probably do wrong, and which I believe can hurt our Christianity and spirituality unless we look into it.

(By the way, I mostly push the idea that we look into something even if my reasons appear too strongly promoted. I don't usually have a specific solution about exactly what we must do to resolve the issues that arise. I think that's what a Governing Body is for. I might have ideas but don't think it's my place to push a specific solution when there are multiple choices of solutions. However, I always think that discussions can help prepare us for change, and will promote less dogmatism, and therefore more humility in the meantime. This helps us empathize with those we meet in field service and other interested persons.)

On the issue of false rumors starting from nothing, I know it doesn't make much sense. We'd rather believe there was a kernel of truth to them. But in this case, I think I was there to watch the germination of a different kind of  phenomenon. I saw brothers and sisters change from being loving to almost literally "spitting" in a split second when they heard about the "apostasy" charges that several persons received. It was the incongruent variety of extra charges that were heaped upon some of the brothers and sisters that got to me. Within days, these might have coalesced into only one or two charges that were finally settled upon, but even these were clearly far-fetched and sometimes contradictory. I think it's more of a matter of our own minds not being able to manage the "justice" of casting out brothers and sisters that were so loving and kind and would do anything for you yesterday, but were called a disgusting cancer today. I think the mind just needs to create a story to solve the dissonance.

Your point about looking forward instead of back is so apt. I have three children, and in raising them, we often made the mistake of trying to draw out every detail of a conflict between any two of them. We wanted the whole story each time. Each person's version, and then as parents we know doubt imposed on our own compromised versions on top of it to make it coherent. What a waste of time! Your counsel to look forward, and focus on what we'll all do in the future to help each other avoid conflict creates on-going trust and therefore misconceptions and imputed bad motives don't have so much "breeding" room.

I have a feeling that the current GB get along many times better than the 17 at once during my tour of duty. I hear from a friend that these kinds of issues are more likely only from the more competitive among the "helpers." I visited Patterson early last year (and Brooklyn Bethel, too, but it doesn't tell you as much any more) and I see a much more professional group who appear less likely to let education levels, class differences, and various insecurities get in the way.

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

On 6/24/2017 at 1:49 PM, JW Insider said:

Even before C.T.Russell was born, commentaries on Bible prophecy included  dozens of potential dates. A couple of them even included 1914 as potentially significant time, nearly 200 years ago, now. The "1914 presence" doctrine, however, is only about 75 years old.

This is interesting. What publication before Russell specified 1914AD? show the reference publications, please!

You and I have already shared photocopies on this forum showing how John A Brown pointed to the 1914 period as a potentially significant time.  What I said above is based on the Proclaimer's book:

• *** jv chap. 10 p. 134 Growing in Accurate Knowledge of the Truth ***
• As early as 1823, John A. Brown, whose work was published in London, England, calculated the “seven times” of Daniel chapter 4 to be 2,520 years in length. But he did not clearly discern the date with which the prophetic time period began or when it would end. He did, however, connect these “seven times” with the Gentile Times of Luke 21:24. In 1844, E. B. Elliott, a British clergyman, drew attention to 1914 as a possible date for the end of the “seven times” of Daniel

Those were the two sources from Christendom where Nelson Barbour would have picked up on 1914, at least indirectly for the first, and evidently directly for the second.

I think you already know that John A Brown said that the Mohammedan Imposture started in 622 and ends 1,260 "days" later in 1844. The 1,290 ending in 1873, and that the 1,335 days ending in 1917. Therefore the three-and-one-half Gentile Times of Luke 21:24. ended in 1844, per Brown. (For these he used "lunar" years.) But the 7 times of Daniel 4 (not the Gentile Times)  would run from 604 BC to 1917 AD. (Starting at approximately the beginning of the Babylonian empire, 18 years before Jerusalem was burned, and claiming that the "destruction or first captivity of the Jewish nation" started even before Nebuchadnezzar became king, back in 606, the same year that Russell mistakenly took for the destruction of the Temple.

Brown said:

• "This second judgment synchronises with the war of Gog of Magog, at the close of the 1290 years, and extends until the close of the 1,335 years of Daniel. This attended by the general judgment . . . " (page xxxvii).

In other words the prophecy for this war ran from 1873 until 1917, not only including 1914, but covering almost the exact time period of Nelson Barbour's harvest, in this case 1873-1917. × Page 130 and 131 mention that this is the time for the sitting in judgment of the beasts, especially "Rome," and the period of gradual decay and burial of Gog of Magog. 

As you must be aware, it was not Miller but E. B. Elliott in Horae Apocalypticae, who first in the 1844 edition, and also in the 1847 edition, included the following: (text version here: http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/history/05 Horae Third Edition Chronology.htm )

• And, 1st, on the seven times of Nebuchadnezzar's insanity and state of bestialism: {1} These calculated after the year-day system, on the hypothesis of the Babylonish king's insanity figuring that of the great empires which he then headed, in their state of heathen aberration from God, (an hypothesis on the truth of which I do not myself entertain much doubt,) terminate, -- if dated from the time, B.C. 727, . . . -about the year 1793; . . .  Of course if calculated from Nebuchadnezzar's own accession and invasion of Judah, B.C. 606, the end is much later, being A.D. 1914;  

[Arauna]

Insider,  I agree with you that the GB seems more calm and kinder now and more mature BUT this does not mean that they will not fall foul of some other sinful quality!  And it is not always Satan - it is just the sinfulness and wrong desires (dominance/competitiveness/ ego) in each of us which leads to bad behavior. Satan will also use any flaw in a person if he sees a gap.

This is why I always caution that we must all of us watch ourselves when it comes to ambition (even in the truth); do not believe that you have the only way of doing something; and ANY form of control over others must be avoided.  If we do not cooperate - we are abusing our power.  A child can abuse the power he has over the family when he does not cooperate.  He can make his parents life difficult.  and.... where there is no peace.... then righteousness cannot grow.  One must keep peace at all costs ..... but many have not learnt that yet because we are all at different levels of development.  Some also learn some things faster than others.

I have been on field service with sisters that are so controlling that I actually want to avoid them the next time - but force myself to be impartial and overlook this DEADLY quality because it destroys unhypocrytical love..   They are usually older sisters and set in their ways - so I try to find the good in them.

I think the shouting match that Paulus had with Barnabas is a good reason for us to not expect people to be perfect and where ever people are - imperfection is sure to follow - and there is always that EGO to a stronger or lesser degree. The anointed man who slept with his own mother and then was later accepted back into the congregation just shows the level to which Jehovah can forgive and what we must be prepared to forgive..... I also believe to speak my mind openly but always try to do it in a loving way.  When in doubt - show love. Sort things immediately in a nice way.... and it has worked for me.  When I was younger I was afraid to speak out but as Paul said: the older sisters also have a role to play to inspire the younger ones and teach the young wives to love their husbands.

The new meeting materials that focus on Christian living - I was very happy when this new feature was brought in because I thought this was really a facet of our Christian living which was neglected before... yea - so we all have our little peeves....  but I honestly believe we must overlook this and get on with only focusing on Jehovah.

My brother - when he was in prison for the truth ( 3 years) told me that he saw some seriously nasty things amongst the brothers (people are just people and immature) and it caused divisions - while they were all trying to keep their integrity to Jehovah.... so yes... I do think that we may in future be thrown into prison together and then we will have to cope with each other..... this will not be a piece of cake.... but if we can do it we will get the crown of life!  Sometimes out tests come from within the congregation!

[bruceq]

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Of course that could be part of what he has in mind, but Russell never predicted the start of the Great War we now call World War I.

Yes he did. I have read it several times in my own Studies in the Scriptures and Watch Towers of that era He said in 1914 there would be worldwide "turmoil" "universal anarchy" "war" "time of trouble"  and many other words to describe that year as different than any previous. 

These 2520 years we believe will expire with October, 1914; at that time we believe the Gentile lease of power will expire, and that the God of heaven will set up his Kingdom in Israel. We do not expect universal peace to immediately ensue because Christ is styled the Prince of Peace. On the contrary, to our understanding the collapse of the nations will be through a fierce strife, "a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation," in which "there shall be no peace to him that goeth out, nor to him that cometh in," because God will set every man’s hand against his neighbor. Our belief is that the warfare between capital and labor, emperors and peoples, will be short, sharp, decisive, and bring untold calamity upon all concerned. If people could only discern it, they would avoid it, but their eyes are holden; they see not, neither do they understand. All the parties to the conflict are plunging into it, each intent on gaining its point, and each oblivious to its own best interests. -- "Times of the Gentiles", The National Labor Tribune, July 11, 1909.

I believe October, 1914, is the time when we may expect that great time of trouble, because it seems to our judgment, as far as we can understand the Scriptures, that is the time when the Gentile period of lease, or tenure, will expire, and when, therefore, we may expect that the time of trouble shall be ushered in; and that time of trouble we understand is the one the Scriptures tell about–a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, a time of trouble which shall overwhelm all sorts of government, and every institution of the present time; and a time of trouble which thus will make ready and prepare mankind for the glorious reign of Christ and his Church, for the blessing and uplifting of all the families of the earth. -- What Pastor Russell Said, Question 555:4 (1910).
 

He even admits he does not know what exactly will happen in 1914 but that there will be a time of trouble in that year:

Nineteen hundred and fourteen is the time when the "Gentile Times" will end. What does that mean? I do not know, but I think it is when God lets go in a general sense of the world, and permits things to take their course; and we can readily suppose, as the Apostle says, that the course of nature would be set on fire, because of strife.which the Bible marks out as having its beginning about October, In the world of mankind, I shall expect a time of great trouble, 1914. -- What Pastor Russell Said, Question 76:1 (1910).

Our readers know that for some years we have been expecting this Age to close with an awful time of trouble, and we expect it to break out with suddenness and force not long after October, 1914, which, so far as we can understand the Scriptures, is the date at which the Times of the Gentiles –the lease of earth’s dominions to the Gentiles–will expire. -- "Loosing the Four Winds of Heaven", May 15, 1911, page 146, Reprints 4822.

He was humble enough to even admit that if he was wrong then it will come sometime:

We are expecting in October, 1914, that a great change will be due. Now, how quickly will it come? Whether on the stroke of the clock or not we do not know. We believe that it will land upon humanity by that time. Perhaps some of it will come before that, but we believe it will be stayed off until that time. Now, dear friends, what if it does not? We are just as well off as the rest. That is what the Bible states. If it does not state that to you, we have no quarrel. And if it does not come we will not try to bring it about. But, on the contrary, we will try to practice peace and holiness withal. We are children of peace and peacemakers, not strife breeders. But we believe the Bible teaches October, 1914, as the time. If that is incorrect for a year, or five, or one hundred years, no matter, it is coming some time, whether we have it right or not. -- Convention Sermons Report.
 

And there are literally hundreds more quotations that he made showing that 1914 would stand out as a unique date in Bible prophecy and would be indicated with a War. 

Right after Jesus was enthroned as King as the rider of the White Horse the Red horse is said to "take peace away from the EARTH" not just one or two nations but a Global War which history testifies as 1914 being the very first Global War which is why it is called "World War 1" Revelation ch. 6

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

However, I always think that discussions can help prepare us for change, and will promote less dogmatism, and therefore more humility in the meantime.

Do they? Or do they not remind us of journalists who all day, every day, identify problems for others to fix. And when the fix is in, they point out what is wrong with that, too. It's a great job to have.

 

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This helps us empathize with those we meet in field service and other interested persons.

Possibly. But does it not just as equally provide fuel for those with flame throwers?

I don't think it has worked that way on this forum. People leave with approximately the same level of empathy they had on arrival. It is a fruit of God's spirit (you can probably tease it out of the list somehow) not dependent or necessarily helped by public airing.

When they devise a new Bible training school there at headquarters, they put themselves through it first. This indicates to me that they are not devising material to 'control the masses' - (I can hear some making that accusation now) Instead, they recognize that all are to be 'taught by Jehovah,' themselves foremost. It is a recognition of their own shortcomings, as descendants of Adam, and a renewed determination to seek what is higher.

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I have a feeling that the current GB get along many times better than the 17 at once during my tour of duty

To whatever extent it is true that the new ones are having a love-in and the old ones fought like cats and dogs, should we attribute it to public discussions? Or to being taught by Jehovah?